a traffic dilemma

"recycled-one" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Assume you are making a left turn from a middle, left-only, lane onto
another multi-lane street.

How soon do you transit to the curb lane after the turn? Right away as
part of the turn? Or as a separate movement from the center lane to the
curb?

Now assume not far after the left you will be making another left as
diagrammed by the purple arrows:

http://www.geocities.com/siklelogical/stone.scott.bmp

Do you stay in the center lane? [blue arrows] Or transit to the curb lane
[red arrows] and then back to the center lane for the second left turn?

If it depends on how far the second left is, then how far is that?

I think it would depend on the time of day and how much traffic you had to
contend with.
If the traffic is heavy, I would simply turn left onto the sidewalk ride
against the traffic flow and not even bother getting onto the road for that
short of a distance.
I would have likely already be on the sidewalk on that side of the street
before the first left turn and probably cut through the alleys or parking
lots if possible and not even bother getting onto the roads or sidewalks in
that section.
If it is early, little traffic, then after the first left turn, stay in the
left lane and make the second turn just as though you were in a car.
Going all over the road like that makes you unpredicable and at higher risk
of getting hit. Taking the lane and staying in it would be the proper course
in my opinion.
You are only going a block or two there. Changing lanes like that means you
have to look for traffic, change lanes when it is safe, several times making
it more dangerous.

recycled-one said:

Assume you are making a left turn from a middle, left-only, lane onto
another multi-lane street.

How soon do you transit to the curb lane after the turn? Right away as part
of the turn? Or as a separate movement from the center lane to the curb?

Theortically as a separate move. I normally would make the turn and
then signal another (right ) turn to enter the curb lane.

Quoted message said:

Now assume not far after the left you will be making another left as
diagrammed by the purple arrows:

http://www.geocities.com/siklelogical/stone.scott.bmp

Do you stay in the center lane? [blue arrows] Or transit to the curb lane
[red arrows] and then back to the center lane for the second left turn?

If it depends on how far the second left is, then how far is that?

For anything under about 500m I stay in the left lane. After 500m it
becomes a toss-up. The heavier the traffic the more I probably would
be inclined to stay in the left lane. There is not need to fight one's
way across two lanes of traffic if one does not need to.

Nice diagram by the way.

John Kane, Kingston ON Canada

Earl said:

I think it would depend on the time of day and how much traffic you had to
contend with.

So far, so good.

Quoted message said:

If the traffic is heavy, I would simply turn left onto the sidewalk ...
I would have likely already be on the sidewalk on that side of the street
before the first left turn and probably cut through the alleys or parking
lots if possible and not even bother getting onto the roads or sidewalks in
that section.

Presumably OP is inquiring about vehicular cycling practices and
techniques, and if s/he wanted to avoid any contact with motorized
traffic, already knows how to ride like a kid.

Quoted message said:

If it is early, little traffic, then after the first left turn, stay in the
left lane and make the second turn just as though you were in a car.

That would be my advice (typed the Effective Cycling instructor
certified in 1980).

Quoted message said:

Going all over the road like that makes you unpredicable and at higher risk
of getting hit.

Uh, no, not if done correctly and the trajectory excludes sidewalks and
cut-throughs (why not pop a wheelie while you're at it?).

Quoted message said:

Taking the lane and staying in it would be the proper course
in my opinion.
You are only going a block or two there. Changing lanes like that means you
have to look for traffic, change lanes when it is safe, several times making
it more dangerous.

Much depends on the circs. Doing this every day as part of a commute?
Your fellow road users are likely to recognize you and your route by
the end of the first week. What are the traffic patterns like on the
pertinent streets? (Your diagram must be really nice, 'cuz there's too
much traffic there to let me see it!)

HTH

--Karen D.

"Veloise" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Much depends on the circs. Doing this every day as part of a commute?
Your fellow road users are likely to recognize you and your route by
the end of the first week. What are the traffic patterns like on the
pertinent streets?

Not my commute but how I go to the library. I do have another choice. I
could transit through Stone Rd Mall using the roadway behind the mall
itself, which isn't too busy to enter the intersection from the north on
Scottsdale thus not requiring the first left.

Quoted message said:

(Your diagram must be really nice, 'cuz there's too
much traffic there to let me see it!)

Actually I noticed I had the opposite turn lanes screwed up and did a quick
edit. That and being a freebie website it's performance isn't great.

recycled-one said:

Assume you are making a left turn from a middle, left-only, lane onto
another multi-lane street.

Any time there is significant traffic, or complicated road manuever
requiring left turns, I handle it exactly the same way I would drive it
in a car. People give you funny looks when you're sitting in a middle
lane, in the middle of the lane. I think they are considering honking
or yelling, but generally refrain from doing so. Once the light goes
green and they realize at 0-20 I can match anything but a 'vette in
getting through the traffic controlled turns, they generally go about
their business as if I were a car. No complaints by either civilians
or cops, and our police department believes in keeping as many cops
driving around, showing the colors, as absolutely, humanly possible.
So they've definately seen me do it quite a few times.

The only thing I do differently, is that I always plan my turn sequence
so that I end up in the right hand lane after all is said and done.
Once through, I drift over to the shoulder or white line, then drop my
speed to let my heart rate come down from sprint mode.

But in general, the more traffic there is, the more you need to behave
exactly like something that everyone is used to dealing with, ie, a
car. As soon as you start to make exceptions for your comfort, you are
placing yourself in a situation where no one around you can figure out
what you're doing. That path leads to getting smushed.

"recycled-one" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Assume you are making a left turn from a middle, left-only, lane onto
another multi-lane street.

How soon do you transit to the curb lane after the turn? Right away as
part of the turn? Or as a separate movement from the center lane to the
curb?

Depends on traffic. I have this sort of turn every day, turning left from
the #1 lane (one way street), but in two blocks I'm turning right. Traffic
is always fairly heavy; there's almost always buses in the #2 lane shortly
after I make the left. The question for me has always been at what point do
I position myself behind/in front of the buses, especially considering that
there's only two blocks (one a very short block, about one articulated bus
length long). It is really dependent on how many other vehicles there are,
exactly how many buses...I've been known to stay in the #1 lane after making
the left, and then cutting in front of the loading/unloading bus and making
my right, which feels fairly agressive.

Quoted message said:

Now assume not far after the left you will be making another left as
diagrammed by the purple arrows:

http://www.geocities.com/siklelogical/stone.scott.bmp

Do you stay in the center lane? [blue arrows] Or transit to the curb lane
[red arrows] and then back to the center lane for the second left turn?

No transiting; stay in the #1 as is.

--
Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky
http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/
See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky

Quoted message said:

recycled-one said:

Assume you are making a left turn from a middle, left-only, lane onto
another multi-lane street.

How soon do you transit to the curb lane after the turn? Right away as part
of the turn? Or as a separate movement from the center lane to the curb?

Theortically as a separate move. I normally would make the turn and
then signal another (right ) turn to enter the curb lane.

Why a separate move? In the diagram surely there is one lane of
traffic turning into Scotsdale so it can freely split into whichever
lane it wants as part of the turn unlkess I am missing something about
local traffic law or practice. I'm curious as I was about to post
pretty much the exact same response as you except for this point

Quoted message said:

[snip rest]

best wishes
james

"Veloise" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Earl said:

I think it would depend on the time of day and how much traffic you had
to
contend with.

So far, so good.

Quoted message said:

If the traffic is heavy, I would simply turn left onto the sidewalk ...
I would have likely already be on the sidewalk on that side of the street
before the first left turn and probably cut through the alleys or parking
lots if possible and not even bother getting onto the roads or sidewalks
in
that section.

Presumably OP is inquiring about vehicular cycling practices and
techniques, and if s/he wanted to avoid any contact with motorized
traffic, already knows how to ride like a kid.

Quoted message said:

If it is early, little traffic, then after the first left turn, stay in
the
left lane and make the second turn just as though you were in a car.

That would be my advice (typed the Effective Cycling instructor
certified in 1980).

Quoted message said:

Going all over the road like that makes you unpredicable and at higher
risk
of getting hit.

Uh, no, not if done correctly and the trajectory excludes sidewalks and
cut-throughs (why not pop a wheelie while you're at it?).

Quoted message said:

Taking the lane and staying in it would be the proper course
in my opinion.
You are only going a block or two there. Changing lanes like that means
you
have to look for traffic, change lanes when it is safe, several times
making
it more dangerous.

Much depends on the circs. Doing this every day as part of a commute?
Your fellow road users are likely to recognize you and your route by
the end of the first week. What are the traffic patterns like on the
pertinent streets? (Your diagram must be really nice, 'cuz there's too
much traffic there to let me see it!)

HTH

--Karen D.

I use everything to my advantage when it is rush hour with traffic jams and
such.
I consider sidewalks fair game at certain times of the day or night. Alleys,
empty fields, parks, parking lots, construction zones, industrial areas,
residential areas, apartment complexes, etc. I am not above using sidewalks
to advantage. But in some cities it is illegal to ride a biccycle on a
sidewalk, so that may not be a option in some areas.
There has to be some advantage to using a bicycle besides sitting in traffic
jams like all the motorists do. :-)
It used to be pretty good when you could ride in between the cars and trucks
in a traffic jam, but it seems like in the last few years, the drivers seem
to be getting a lot more sloppy and are blocking off the spacing between the
lanes. Sometimes it seems like everyone wants to try and see what is going
on up ahead, so they move over to the left more. Then you have those curb
huggers too. It is a lot harder to do it now. or at least in some of my
commuting areas. Of course now that everyone has big SUV's maybe it just
seems that way.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] wrote:

http://www.geocities.com/siklelogical/stone.scott.bmp

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Theoretically as a separate move. I normally would make the turn and
then signal another (right ) turn to enter the curb lane.

Why a separate move? In the diagram surely there is one lane of
traffic turning into Scottsdale so it can freely split into whichever
lane it wants as part of the turn unless I am missing something about
local traffic law or practice. I'm curious as I was about to post
pretty much the exact same response as you except for this point'

That's what I do normally: Make my initial turn into the curb lane assuming
I'm not making a quick left again. I suppose the 'proper' manner is two
movements but I figure it's more expedient for myself and those behind me to
get to the curb lane in one movement as there is nothing to right to be an
issue... Perhaps a right-on- red coming the other way. But around here if
there is a left-turn only lane there is an advanced green that gives the
left-turner the right-of-way.

Staying in the middle lane for the quick second left... I don't see traffic
volume being the deciding factor. If it's heavy I probably don't want to
make two lane changes but neither do I want to be in the middle of it given
some kar drivers' blindness. OTOH if traffic is light transiting the lanes
is a breeze but then so is staying in the center lane.

In article <[email hidden]>,

recycled-one said:

Assume you are making a left turn from a middle, left-only, lane onto
another multi-lane street.

How soon do you transit to the curb lane after the turn? Right away as part
of the turn? Or as a separate movement from the center lane to the curb?

Now assume not far after the left you will be making another left as
diagrammed by the purple arrows:

http://www.geocities.com/siklelogical/stone.scott.bmp

Do you stay in the center lane? [blue arrows] Or transit to the curb lane
[red arrows] and then back to the center lane for the second left turn?

If it depends on how far the second left is, then how far is that?

I would stay in the left lane for the second turn if the distance was
under 250 meters. I would turn into the right lane then move over back
to the left for the second turn if it were greater than that.

--
fneep

In article <[email hidden]>,

Earl Bollinger said:

I use everything to my advantage when it is rush hour with traffic jams and
such.
I consider sidewalks fair game at certain times of the day or night. Alleys,
empty fields, parks, parking lots, construction zones, industrial areas,
residential areas, apartment complexes, etc. I am not above using sidewalks
to advantage.

I'm of the same school of thought. As the baseball dictum says:
"Hit 'em where they ain't."

Quoted message said:

But in some cities it is illegal to ride a biccycle on a
sidewalk, so that may not be a option in some areas.

It's illegal where I live, but that doesn't stop me, and
I haven't been hassled for it yet. Of course, I'm talking
about fairly desolate inner-city sidewalks, and not downtown
ones, teeming with throngs of mid-December Christmas shoppers.

Quoted message said:

There has to be some advantage to using a bicycle besides sitting in traffic
jams like all the motorists do. :-)

Sure. It's a shame to waste that advantage by trying to turn
one's bike into a car just to be servile to drivers (who won't
appreciate it anyways.)

cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

recycled-one wrote:
Finally got to see your nice illustration!

Quoted message said:

http://www.geocities.com/siklelogical/stone.scott.bmp

Do you stay in the center lane? [blue arrows] Or transit to the curb lane
[red arrows] and then back to the center lane for the second left turn?

If it depends on how far the second left is, then how far is that?

Stay blue. KFC is a fairly narrow frontage, and for all the overtaking
motorist knows, you could be turning there (although it seems very
close to the intersection). Lane position should tell them everything
they need to know, and if they don't get it, stick an arm out.

(I sometimes offer an abbreviated signal of a finger point; it's just
for those who need to see it.)

Now, if you were going from the distance of KFC + library times 2 or
more, it might be worth turning into the curb lave space, then moving
over. Depends on the amount of traffic and how crazy things are at the
intersection.

HTH

--Karen D.
from the land of the "Michigan left"

"Veloise" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

recycled-one wrote:
Finally got to see your nice illustration!

Quoted message said:

http://www.geocities.com/siklelogical/stone.scott.bmp

Do you stay in the center lane? [blue arrows] Or transit to the curb
lane
[red arrows] and then back to the center lane for the second left turn?

If it depends on how far the second left is, then how far is that?

Stay blue. KFC is a fairly narrow frontage, and for all the overtaking
motorist knows, you could be turning there (although it seems very
close to the intersection). Lane position should tell them everything
they need to know, and if they don't get it, stick an arm out.

Actually I've compressed it a bit. The KFC frontage is unusually large and
the library is really the third plaza entrance with a narrow frontage low
rise office entrance between the KFC and library plaza - if that makes any
sense. I'd estimate 250 meters tops from the intersection to the library.

Gonna have to edit the map. 🙁

Quoted message said:

(I sometimes offer an abbreviated signal of a finger point; it's just
for those who need to see it.)

Now, if you were going from the distance of KFC + library times 2 or
more, it might be worth turning into the curb lave space, then moving
over. Depends on the amount of traffic and how crazy things are at the
intersection.

I'm thinking I'll stay in the center. Though when not making another quick
left I will still make my turn into the curb lane in one movement.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

For anything under about 500m I stay in the left lane. After 500m it
becomes a toss-up. The heavier the traffic the more I probably would
be inclined to stay in the left lane. There is not need to fight one's
way across two lanes of traffic if one does not need to.

I estimate 200 meters.from the intersection to the turn.

Quoted message said:

Nice diagram by the way.

Thanks. I liked to doodle maps before computers. Now I do it with paint. Of
course the beauty of computers is modifying. Its' an iterative process. So
in the name of accuracy though still not to scale here is the up-up-updated
diagram.

http://www.geocities.com/siklelogical/stone.scott.bmp

Though we are still outside the higher definition area if you Google Map to
Stone Rd. West and Scottsdale Drive Guelph Ontario, that is the intersection
in question.

On Sat, 3 Jun 2006 19:33:13 -0700, [email hidden] (Tom Keats)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There has to be some advantage to using a bicycle besides sitting in traffic
jams like all the motorists do. :-)

Sure. It's a shame to waste that advantage by trying to turn
one's bike into a car just to be servile to drivers (who won't
appreciate it anyways.)

Ninety nine percent of the time I'm using the methods promoted by
"Vehicular Cycling" adherents but I'm not adverse to using the
bicycle's inherent superiority to my advantage.

It's nice to have ones cake and eat it too.

If drivers don't like it. . . [censored]. Let them get a bike.
--
zk

If you haven't been run over yet, doing what you're doing, I'd say just
keep doing what you're doing.

Its very difficult for someone to explain, _to you_, how you should do
something, because they are _not you_ and, whatever you are doing, you
need to be comfortable with it.

Lewis.

****

recycled-one said:

Assume you are making a left turn from a middle, left-only, lane onto
another multi-lane street.

How soon do you transit to the curb lane after the turn? Right away as part
of the turn? Or as a separate movement from the center lane to the curb?

Now assume not far after the left you will be making another left as
diagrammed by the purple arrows:

http://www.geocities.com/siklelogical/stone.scott.bmp

Do you stay in the center lane? [blue arrows] Or transit to the curb lane
[red arrows] and then back to the center lane for the second left turn?

If it depends on how far the second left is, then how far is that?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

recycled-one said:

Assume you are making a left turn from a middle, left-only, lane onto
another multi-lane street.

How soon do you transit to the curb lane after the turn? Right away as part
of the turn? Or as a separate movement from the center lane to the curb?

Theortically as a separate move. I normally would make the turn and
then signal another (right ) turn to enter the curb lane.

Why a separate move? In the diagram surely there is one lane of
traffic turning into Scotsdale so it can freely split into whichever
lane it wants as part of the turn unlkess I am missing something about
local traffic law or practice. I'm curious as I was about to post
pretty much the exact same response as you except for this point

Quoted message said:

[snip rest]

Two main reasons.
One, it's the law here IIRC. 🙂
Two, I find it is a good habit since in some cases I find myself in
the leftmost turn lane of 2 turn lanes. I don't want to surprise the
rider/driver in the other turn lane by drifting over towards the curb
lane. This way I can clearly indicate that I am making a move.

In most cases 'two' does not apply but I find it easier to do it all
the time than try to remember that I am in a two lane turning
situation.
John Kane, Kingston ON Canada

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If you haven't been run over yet, doing what you're doing, I'd say just
keep doing what you're doing.

Its very difficult for someone to explain, _to you_, how you should do
something, because they are _not you_ and, whatever you are doing, you
need to be comfortable with it.

I'd hoped to stimulate discussion that wasn't part of crossposted
trollery.. If you aren't interested in participating in this particular
topic, that's fine. Though to advise that I should do what I think is best
and disregard anyone else's advice is....... paradoxical to say the least.

On Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:37:06 -0400, "recycled-one" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Assume you are making a left turn from a middle, left-only, lane onto
another multi-lane street.

How soon do you transit to the curb lane after the turn? Right away as part
of the turn? Or as a separate movement from the center lane to the curb?

Now assume not far after the left you will be making another left as
diagrammed by the purple arrows:

http://www.geocities.com/siklelogical/stone.scott.bmp

Do you stay in the center lane? [blue arrows] Or transit to the curb lane
[red arrows] and then back to the center lane for the second left turn?

If it depends on how far the second left is, then how far is that?

Looking at the map, this is a judgement call situation. The rider
will just have to evaluate the traffic levels on both streets, and
make choices according to what's possible and what's safe. It's
Guelph, not bloody Toronto, so the traffic level isn't likely to be as
murderous as it might be, but only the person in the saddle can see
and respond to what is there at the time.

--
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