A question about EPO.

There is more to blood boosting than just EPO and anemia drugs.

Other methods and protocols are used as well----also used by Navy Seals on dives below 100 feet.

Jet pilots use amphetamines too.

In life or death situations, or matters of war--dopimg is essential for success.

The Tour de France is such a contest of war & trauma.

btw: the self imposed UCI 50% hematocrit rule is an invitation to dope---at least to that level which is 20% over normal.

Only in the Tour do riders get stronger as the race gets harder. (and hematocrit levels inexplicably maintain or increase)

In the old days (before the good drugs) people cracked into pieces---including the leaders.

Now riders only quit if they crash out or overdose. (aka: stomach flu)

tomUK said:

If my natural hemocrit level were for example 42 and then I added a shot of EPO to myself and managed to get this level to 49, how would this affect my power on the bike?

I would be interested in an answer to this question if anyone knows. Last week I was watching the documentary 'The Science of Lance Armstrong' and about half-way through Lance is on a training ride and he stops (to get a fly out of his eye or something) and one of the crew ask about the allegations about his doping use. He response something like 'if I were doing anything naughty then I believe it would make a small difference and therefore it wouldn't be worthwhile.'

Can a 'natural' athlete really out-perform one who is using PED's? I recall a comment from Lemond stating something in the realm of 'EPO can turn a turn a normal rider into something quite impressive'.

Forget the Armstrong - Lemond rivalry (i.e. envy, etc) and concentrate on the facts. Does EPO increase power output? As flyer says often pro-cyclist are seen to have 20 points raised hemocrit above us mortal folk. If us mortal folk were to increase our hemocrit to say 49% would our power output be substantially increase too?

Thanks. 🙂 Tom.

I always focus on what the athletes are doing---never what they are saying.

They lie so often--and so well (because of a life style of addiction and deception)

If Lance were truly anti-doping his actions would be very different:

1) he never would have worked with Michele Ferrari in October 1995 to the present.

Ferrari was pitching select riders for 'full blown EPO programs' in 1993.

2) Lance would not have written a tirade letter attacking Richard Pound and WADA early last year.

3) Lance would not be accusing Filippo Simeoni of lying under oath. I mean, if Lance were clean or dirty--how would he know?

4) Lance would not have belittled Christophe Bassons in the 1999 TDF and told him to quit after Bassons confirmed to the press that riders were still doping, just as in 1998.

5) Lance would not be able to stay on wheels in the 'auto bus' let alone win the TTs or attack in the high mountains.

EPO is not the only booster product--but according to Eddie Plankaert it makes a 15% increase in sustainable power.

No organic athlete can deal with a 15% disadvantage.

6) Lance would not keep saying that Cycling has done more than other sports and has made great progress.

That is a bald face lie! After 2004, with Hamilton, Museeuw, Camenzind, Perez, Cofidis, Millar, Sassone, Gaumant, Kleme, Manzano, the AIS doping scandal, 5 deaths etc....

That is just 12 months of doping disclodures.

Lance is not to be believed---on any topic.

tomUK said:

I would be interested in an answer to this question if anyone knows. Last week I was watching the documentary 'The Science of Lance Armstrong' and about half-way through Lance is on a training ride and he stops (to get a fly out of his eye or something) and one of the crew ask about the allegations about his doping use. He response something like 'if I were doing anything naughty then I believe it would make a small difference and therefore it wouldn't be worthwhile.'

Can a 'natural' athlete really out-perform one who is using PED's? I recall a comment from Lemond stating something in the realm of 'EPO can turn a turn a normal rider into something quite impressive'.

Forget the Armstrong - Lemond rivalry (i.e. envy, etc) and concentrate on the facts. Does EPO increase power output? As flyer says often pro-cyclist are seen to have 20 points raised hemocrit above us mortal folk. If us mortal folk were to increase our hemocrit to say 49% would our power output be substantially increase too?

Thanks. 🙂 Tom.

Flyer said:

There is more to blood boosting than just EPO and anemia drugs.

Other methods and protocols are used as well----also used by Navy Seals on dives below 100 feet.

Jet pilots use amphetamines too.

In life or death situations, or matters of war--dopimg is essential for success.

The Tour de France is such a contest of war & trauma.

btw: the self imposed UCI 50% hematocrit rule is an invitation to dope---at least to that level which is 20% over normal.

Only in the Tour do riders get stronger as the race gets harder. (and hematocrit levels inexplicably maintain or increase)

In the old days (before the good drugs) people cracked into pieces---including the leaders.

Now riders only quit if they crash out or overdose. (aka: stomach flu)

OK DUMBASS! I've seen you post a lot of [censored], and for the most part, have been nice enough about it. Now, if you want to start posting things about the military and doping, this shows how much of a [censored] HEAD you really are!

YOU WOULD NEVER KNOW WHAT A LIFE OR DEATH SITUATION IS, because YOU'VE NEVER been in one. And you wouldn't know what is or is not done to get through war.

I am porud to say that I served in the USMC for 6 years. I did my time during Desert Storm and Somallia. I was in those situations and if I was on anything, it was FEAR! Your dumb ass would never know what it took to get through a tough situation, because you've NEVER been in one. So, Flyer, stick your doping propaganda you yoiu ass! Youa re truely the dumbest F/U on this board!

1) you have never been nice
2) you are dead wrong about my background
3) apparently you have not spent time with recon pilots who fly 24 hour missions.

You know jack about cycling and nothing about human natural or sport medicine.

Your remarks prove your weakness. I have little hope for people who 'snipe from behind a bush'

Snyper---- that is all you are and all you can be.

snyper0311 said:

OK DUMBASS! I've seen you post a lot of [censored], and for the most part, have been nice enough about it. Now, if you want to start posting things about the military and doping, this shows how much of a [censored] HEAD you really are!

YOU WOULD NEVER KNOW WHAT A LIFE OR DEATH SITUATION IS, because YOU'VE NEVER been in one. And you wouldn't know what is or is not done to get through war.

I am porud to say that I served in the USMC for 6 years. I did my time during Desert Storm and Somallia. I was in those situations and if I was on anything, it was FEAR! Your dumb ass would never know what it took to get through a tough situation, because you've NEVER been in one. So, Flyer, stick your doping propaganda you yoiu ass! Youa re truely the dumbest F/U on this board!

Flyer, What is your backround?

He has none! Everything he has posted is "hear/say." "My cousins, best friends, daughters,twin sister separated at birth heard it from an man who knew the butlers, sisters, aunts, grandma." That's the extent of his expert sources an/or background. Never has posted anything with any evidence or proof.

Sure, he'll ramble on about the thousands of pro cyclists that have died from EPO use, but the truth is, NOT ONE of the deaths can be directly tied to EPO.

This is true however, I do believe he is 100% correct in that doping is huge part of cycling. I'm living it. CORUPTION IS A WAY OF LIFE.

Coming from a different sporting background and a former user as a competitor in bodybuilding I could imagine the use in top level cycling as well as many other sports are real. And not to offend the military, but since I was also a distributor of sorts I know many of the guys were using as individuals. I can imagine that in the early days there were some governmental experiments going on as well. A good anabolic/androgenic cycle would make for a very aggressive soldier. A very good soldier in my opinion, but please don't flame me for that opinion.

The one thing I disagree with is the amount of deaths attributed directly to anabolics or androgens. I used anabolics/androgens for 10 years with no other combination and felt no long term ill effect. However, the effects do vary from individual to individual. I had a number of short term effects like aggression and acne.

I would say that most of the deaths that I know were from mixing PED's with recreational drugs, using diuretics, insulin, over using stimulants like ephedrine or harsher drugs. In that case I know that deaths do occur.

It is what it is, but I can still enjoy the TDF besides these facts.

Or another annoying factoid:

Did you know that the US Navy funded the research for PFC (perafluacarbon) the HBOC booster that nearly murdered Chris Horner's boss, Mauro Gianetti???

The Navy Seals were trying to dive below 100 feet and PFC was thought to help performance.

Yeah. And do not the Marines guard those ships in port? Don't you guys ever read about life or just get out and meet other folks?

Green Berets, Seals, spy pilots, tank commanders, and athletes all use illegal drugs for performance.

snyper0311 said:

He has none! Everything he has posted is "hear/say." "My cousins, best friends, daughters,twin sister separated at birth heard it from an man who knew the butlers, sisters, aunts, grandma." That's the extent of his expert sources an/or background. Never has posted anything with any evidence or proof.

Sure, he'll ramble on about the thousands of pro cyclists that have died from EPO use, but the truth is, NOT ONE of the deaths can be directly tied to EPO.

snyper0311 said:

I am porud to say that I served in the USMC for 6 years. I did my time during Desert Storm and Somallia. I was in those situations and if I was on anything, it was FEAR!

Just a quick word to you snyper.

Thank You for your sacrifice in time and body for defending our country.

Anybody notice how TomUK asked a real question and Flyer made no pretense of answering the actual question, he merely went into one of his tirades. If he really wanted to stop doping he would actually answer a question like this to educate.

I'm not attacking Flyer but I'd be interested in knowing the answer as well ... if anybody knows of a good website to help me understand how EPO works, feel free to post them.

In the meantime, if my questions seem stupid, forgive my lack of knowledge ..

BUT ... Let's make HCT boosting drugs absolutely legal for argument's sake: If I take EPO ...

1) will different types of dosages affect certain kinds of output --in other words, will a certain EPO drug regimen suit weight-training better than cycling.

2) Is EPO even suited for "non-endurance" athletics?

3) With optimal doses, what's the expected benefit of HR --> power output ratio? 30% more power at 60% max? higher? lower?

4) Do the benefits of EPO show up across the board with various levels of effort? In other words, does the drug really only work its magic with maximum efforts? Or will the benefits show up even when going on recovery/foundation rides?

5) OR ... is EPO simply a recovery drug that maintains RBC levels to make you feel fresh after even tough days of effort? In essence, and unlike anabolics, deriving more power/endurance from EPO isn't really how it works, it's more of a "reset button" for muscle recovery?

Seek out an anemia physician.

EPO is used by non-athletes who are sick and weak--or beaten down by chemotherapy as a rejuvenator.

Obviously, these blood boosters have applivation for sport---even sprinting (# of efforts, v total time)

Hence, Marion Jones, Tim Mongomery Kelli White all used EPO despite their events 10-20 second duration.

3_days said:

I'm not attacking Flyer but I'd be interested in knowing the answer as well ... if anybody knows of a good website to help me understand how EPO works, feel free to post them.

In the meantime, if my questions seem stupid, forgive my lack of knowledge ..

BUT ... Let's make HCT boosting drugs absolutely legal for argument's sake: If I take EPO ...

1) will different types of dosages affect certain kinds of output --in other words, will a certain EPO drug regimen suit weight-training better than cycling.

2) Is EPO even suited for "non-endurance" athletics?

3) With optimal doses, what's the expected benefit of HR --> power output ratio? 30% more power at 60% max? higher? lower?

4) Do the benefits of EPO show up across the board with various levels of effort? In other words, does the drug really only work its magic with maximum efforts? Or will the benefits show up even when going on recovery/foundation rides?

5) OR ... is EPO simply a recovery drug that maintains RBC levels to make you feel fresh after even tough days of effort? In essence, and unlike anabolics, deriving more power/endurance from EPO isn't really how it works, it's more of a "reset button" for muscle recovery?

3_days, do a google search "Andreas Munzer EPO" and you will see a rare glimpse of a non-endurance athlete that used EPO and died as a result of combining EPO and diuretics.

Just speaking from strength and muscle type of competitions EPO is something I have rarely heard entertained and is not necessary.

So to answer your question non-endurance athletes can find better suited drugs with less risk than EPO.

Flyer:

I tried ... and bear in mind that I have no intention of taking the stuff ... but with all the talk, I am curious ...

In any case, I got the impression from the good doctor that he had no interest in the use/purpose of EPO in athletics ... and, even if he did, he wasn't looking to prognosticate ---

He repeatedly told me that people jumping from 30-something HCT's to 42 have dropped dead ...

Felt: I'll check it out ... thanks!

Felt: WILD INFO- ON MUNZER --- ABSOLUTELY FRIGGIN SCARY!!!!!

The chemical cocktail that he was on would kill half the horses in the Kentucky Derby ...

cytadren + lasix + EPO + D-bol + GH ... the list is unbelievably scary ...

3_days said:

Felt: WILD INFO- ON MUNZER --- ABSOLUTELY FRIGGIN SCARY!!!!!

The chemical cocktail that he was on would kill half the horses in the Kentucky Derby ...

cytadren + lasix + EPO + D-bol + GH ... the list is unbelievably scary ...

Isn't it though.

When I was using during a 10 year period I really never had a true idea how much my friends were using and I thought that what I was using was pushing the limits, but I had a eye awakening experience when one of my good friends finally confessed to how much he was really using. Sure we (other competitive friends) would discuss cycles, but things were never fully confessed.

After I qualified for the NPC Nationals I confessed to him what I was using and vice versa. I was completely stunned. What I was taking was a drop in the bucket compared to his cycle.

Wouldn't it be great if could review the Michele Ferrari/Lance Armstrong medical chart site???

What are his doses, frenquencies?

What sauces, combinations?

Liver transplant? Kidney funtion/disfunction?

That might be helpful for cancer researchers and sufferers.

Too bad we have to lie about it.

Felt_Rider said:

Isn't it though.

When I was using during a 10 year period I really never had a true idea how much my friends were using and I thought that what I was using was pushing the limits, but I had a eye awakening experience when one of my good friends finally confessed to how much he was really using. Sure we (other competitive friends) would discuss cycles, but things were never fully confessed.

After I qualified for the NPC Nationals I confessed to him what I was using and vice versa. I was completely stunned. What I was taking was a drop in the bucket compared to his cycle.