a philosphical dilemma

"recycled-one" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've related rides up to the lake before but something happened on the

way

Quoted message said:

through town:

It's an old conundrum. Is there any such thing as pure altruism? If you
feel good doing some selfless act is that not self-serving?

The story:

I went for a ride - AQ Index be damned - hoping that going up to the lake
amongst the trees would be better vis a vis air pollution. It stayed in

the

Quoted message said:

moderate range thankfully and ozone as the culprit rather than fine
particulate matter. I figure FPM has to be worse than ozone.

Anyways on the way up the hill from the river a man in a wheelchair on

the

Quoted message said:

sidewalk motions to me for help.

Now I am one of those people who look on those who use those motorized
scooter simply because they are morbidly obese with a certain amount of
scorn. Not a noble or compassionate attitude on my part but unexpressed of
course. That would be rude.

This was not the case with this fellow. He literally had no legs. Both

had

Quoted message said:

been removed mid thigh. My first thought was to consider all of the minor
annoyances, troubles and annoyances that caused me to feel sorry for

myself

Quoted message said:

in the past. Realizing much more serious tribulations made all of mine put
together seem rather picayune.

The guy's problem was that his battery was loose and given his legless
state it was rather difficult for him to adjust it. I took a look at it

and

Quoted message said:

with a little tinkering and nudge I got the battery [one of those big car
batteries] unjammed and seated properly. The battery strap had been

getting

Quoted message said:

caught in the mechanism and the one of the cover clips was bent.

He was good to go. He thanked me for the help. I tell him no problem and
mean it. I feel good for helping the guy out. I wipe my hands, covered in
the grime from the battery on the grass.

It really does feel good to have helped someone. A small act for sure.

Does

Quoted message said:

that obviate the altruism? Does relating it here reflect self-promotion on
my part?

Oh another thought. The incident itself is unremarkable but I began to
think about how many kars passed without helping. Not their fault. they

had

Quoted message said:

no way of knowing that the guy did need assistance. Their kars insulated
them from being aware.... from being a part of their surroundings....

My theory is that I don't take too much pride in helping out others. I just
think of it making up for past sins.

In article <[email hidden]>,

recycled-one said:

It really does feel good to have helped someone. A small act for sure. Does
that obviate the altruism?

Which is the more important: the altruism, or the help?

Anyways, there's nothing wrong with sending good vibes
out into the world, and sharing in the enjoyment of 'em.

And you didn't expect the guy to pay ya for yer trouble.
That's what would obviate the altruism.

cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

recycled-one said:

Anyways on the way up the hill from the river a man in a wheelchair on the
sidewalk motions to me for help.

Now I am one of those people who look on those who use those motorized
scooter simply because they are morbidly obese with a certain amount of
scorn. Not a noble or compassionate attitude on my part but unexpressed of
course. That would be rude.

My attitude, too, gain 300 pounds and get a power chair, so no
compassion from me.

Quoted message said:

This was not the case with this fellow. He literally had no legs. Both had
been removed mid thigh. My first thought was to consider all of the minor
annoyances, troubles and annoyances that caused me to feel sorry for myself
in the past. Realizing much more serious tribulations made all of mine put
together seem rather picayune.

Seeing someone in a true dilemma, not of his own making tends to clear
all biases.

Quoted message said:

The guy's problem was that his battery was loose and given his legless
state it was rather difficult for him to adjust it. I took a look at it and
with a little tinkering and nudge I got the battery [one of those big car
batteries] unjammed and seated properly. The battery strap had been getting
caught in the mechanism and the one of the cover clips was bent.

He was good to go. He thanked me for the help. I tell him no problem and
mean it. I feel good for helping the guy out. I wipe my hands, covered in
the grime from the battery on the grass.

That may have been your good deed for the week, but it counts big.

Quoted message said:

It really does feel good to have helped someone. A small act for sure. Does
that obviate the altruism? Does relating it here reflect self-promotion on
my part?

No, just a feel good story instead of just how wonderful the ride was
and how you beat your past limit. Those get old.

Quoted message said:

Oh another thought. The incident itself is unremarkable but I began to
think about how many kars passed without helping. Not their fault. they had
no way of knowing that the guy did need assistance. Their kars insulated
them from being aware.... from being a part of their surroundings....

I noticed that last year after dumping it into a ditch next to a highway
and being passed by about 5 or 6 cars, none of which even slowed down. I
could have been hurt or dead but none of the cagers cared enough to
check it out, so I just gathered my wits, got up, and got back to
riding, homeward.
Any cyclist of any kind would have stopped to help.
Bill Baka

"Kurd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My theory is that I don't take too much pride in helping out others. I
just
think of it making up for past sins.

I certainly have enough past sins to keep me going for a while.

"Tom Keats" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Which is the more important: the altruism, or the help?

That's the question. Am I doing it for the my own feel-good feeling or for
him?

Quoted message said:

Anyways, there's nothing wrong with sending good vibes
out into the world, and sharing in the enjoyment of 'em.

And you didn't expect the guy to pay ya for yer trouble.
That's what would obviate the altruism.

Money isn't the only return.

"Max Penn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Some of those fat people in wheelchairs became fat *after* losing their
mobility.

True enough. I can imagine a scenario where the obesity isn't the cause but
I'd bet it is becoming increasingly common.

Quoted message said:

It's hard to make a judgement about a person's worthiness to
receive one's help.

I was not suggesting I wouldn't help that other hypothetical person - Just
that I would have less sympathy or even empathy for them.

Quoted message said:

Even if the guy was legless through his own fault,

I thought about that too. For all I know he lost his legs because he drove
drunk and ploughed into a bunch of cyclists.

The most selfish thought I had was if it happened to me for whatever reason
it would make cycling a real challenge.

"Bill Baka" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Seeing someone in a true dilemma, not of his own making tends to clear all
biases.

It might have been his own dilemma. Perhaps his amputation was a result of
his driving drunk?

recycled-one said:

It's an old conundrum. Is there any such thing as pure altruism? If you
feel good doing some selfless act is that not self-serving?

I know exactly what you mean. On one hand, crowing about good deeds
diminishes them; it's almost as if we exploit someone else's misfortune
to make ourselves look good. On the other hand, if we tell others
about our good deeds, we may lead by example.

I tend not to talk about my good deeds, particularly the little things
(helping a fellow cyclist fix a flat, returning a lost wallet, etc.).
However, if I meet someone who wants to do something more significant
and I've done it myself, then I'll chat about my experiences to
encourage them to go for it.

Personally I find it counter-productive to speak of "sins" and
"penance". It sounds trite, but I prefer the "pay it forward" concept
(which I learned long before the movie of the same name). When I was a
poor college student in the 1970's, a guy I barely knew did me a good
turn. I told him I hoped I could return the favor someday, and he said
I could repay him simply by doing someone else a favor when I was able.
Many times when I do something for someone, I think of this guy and I
know it would make him glad.

-JR

"recycled-one" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

That's the question. Am I doing it for the my own feel-good feeling or for
him?

How about for the both of you? I'm thinking of the affirmation, "may this,
or something better than this, manifest for the highest good of all
concerned". You could do something that benefits you both -- it doesn't have
to be an either/or situation.

--
Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky
http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/
See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky

recycled-one said:

The most selfish thought I had was if it happened to me for whatever reason
it would make cycling a real challenge.

I've thought about this previously, and I don't think it would make it
impossible. There are a number of commercially available hand-cycles
precisely for this sort of situation. They're mostly recumbent trike
designs as one would expect.

ex. Quickie Shark Handcycle
http://bike-on.com/itemdetails.cfm?id=540

--
Dane Buson - [email hidden]
When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked if
I had any firearms with me. I said, "Well, what do you need?"
-- Steven Wright

SlowRider said:

recycled-one said:

It's an old conundrum. Is there any such thing as pure altruism? If you
feel good doing some selfless act is that not self-serving?

I know exactly what you mean. On one hand, crowing about good deeds
diminishes them; it's almost as if we exploit someone else's misfortune
to make ourselves look good. On the other hand, if we tell others
about our good deeds, we may lead by example.

Quoted message said:

From Daddy Long Legs, by Jean Webster

http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext94/dlleg10.txt

Sunday

I forgot to post this yesterday, so I will add an indignant postscript.

We had a bishop this morning, and WHAT DO YOU THINK HE SAID?

`The most beneficent promise made us in the Bible is this,
"The poor ye have always with you." They were put here in order
to keep us charitable.'

The poor, please observe, being a sort of useful domestic animal.
If I hadn't grown into such a perfect lady, I should have gone up
after service and told him what I thought.

recycled-one said:

I've related rides up to the lake before but something happened on the way
through town:

It's an old conundrum. Is there any such thing as pure altruism? If you
feel good doing some selfless act is that not self-serving?

The story:

I went for a ride - AQ Index be damned - hoping that going up to the lake
amongst the trees would be better vis a vis air pollution. It stayed in the
moderate range thankfully and ozone as the culprit rather than fine
particulate matter. I figure FPM has to be worse than ozone.

Anyways on the way up the hill from the river a man in a wheelchair on the
sidewalk motions to me for help.

Now I am one of those people who look on those who use those motorized
scooter simply because they are morbidly obese with a certain amount of
scorn. Not a noble or compassionate attitude on my part but unexpressed of
course. That would be rude.

This was not the case with this fellow. He literally had no legs. Both had
been removed mid thigh. My first thought was to consider all of the minor
annoyances, troubles and annoyances that caused me to feel sorry for myself
in the past. Realizing much more serious tribulations made all of mine put
together seem rather picayune.

The guy's problem was that his battery was loose and given his legless
state it was rather difficult for him to adjust it. I took a look at it and
with a little tinkering and nudge I got the battery [one of those big car
batteries] unjammed and seated properly. The battery strap had been getting
caught in the mechanism and the one of the cover clips was bent.

He was good to go. He thanked me for the help. I tell him no problem and
mean it. I feel good for helping the guy out. I wipe my hands, covered in
the grime from the battery on the grass.

It really does feel good to have helped someone. A small act for sure. Does
that obviate the altruism? Does relating it here reflect self-promotion on
my part?

Oh another thought. The incident itself is unremarkable but I began to
think about how many kars passed without helping. Not their fault. they had
no way of knowing that the guy did need assistance. Their kars insulated
them from being aware.... from being a part of their surroundings....

Interesting questions to ponder in idle moments.

I think about them from time to time - when something happens that brings them
front-and-center in my mind - but never for long. My personal credo kicks in
right away: "If it feels good, just do it".

Is my RAK (Random Act of Kindness) diminished by the fact that I enjoyed doing
it? I say "No". But the question is moot because I don't care one way or the
other. The act helped someone and felt good to me. Win/win.

Did the man who directed me to the fastest route out of a dangerous section of
Baltimore do it because he was a Welfare cheat and felt the need for a slight
morals boost? Makes no diff. to me; he helped me do what I hadn't been able to
do on my own. I lost more time a little bit later by stopping to change a flat
tire for two women wearing business suits. Did I do it because I was still in
the after-glow of a RAK? That did have something to do with it. Some. But I
commit RAKs quite often, regardless of whether or not I've recently been the
recipient of one.

("kars". I like that.)

--
Michael

Dear Recycled One--Try to go back to your state-of-mind when you saw this
disabled person in need of help. Did you see it as an opportunity to make
yourself feel good, or did you see a way to help someone who needed you?
Try to think how you would have felt if you had said, "It's not my problem,"
and gone on your way. OF COURSE you feel good after you do something like
that. It's not because you are selfish--it's because you are you. Who
would you be if you gave someone a hand, and DIDN'T have any satisfaction in
it?

"Leo Lichtman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dear Recycled One--Try to go back to your state-of-mind when you saw this
disabled person in need of help. Did you see it as an opportunity to make
yourself feel good, or did you see a way to help someone who needed you?

To be honest I initially felt a little annoyed. We crossed paths as I was
climbing a hill from the river and was anxious to get out of the city and to
the lake.

But as I said I did feel good for doing it, for helping someone. My
dilemma is does that feel good feeling obviate the selflessness of the act?

"Michael" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I think about them from time to time - when something happens that brings
them
front-and-center in my mind - but never for long. My personal credo kicks
in
right away: "If it feels good, just do it".

In my misspent youth that attitude has sometimes gotten me into trouble..
even things I would still need to atone for.

🙂

"Dane Buson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

recycled-one said:

The most selfish thought I had was if it happened to me for whatever
reason
it would make cycling a real challenge.

I've thought about this previously, and I don't think it would make it
impossible. There are a number of commercially available hand-cycles
precisely for this sort of situation. They're mostly recumbent trike
designs as one would expect.

Funny, my husband and I were having a discussion about this -- would we
still ride together as a couple if one of us were disabled. I was thinking
that there might be a tandem that would allow one partner to be a hand
cyclist. That way it wouldn't be a matter of one person having to wait for
the other.

--
Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky
http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/
See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky

"recycled-one" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Leo Lichtman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dear Recycled One--Try to go back to your state-of-mind when you saw this
disabled person in need of help. Did you see it as an opportunity to
make yourself feel good, or did you see a way to help someone who needed
you?

To be honest I initially felt a little annoyed. We crossed paths as I was
climbing a hill from the river and was anxious to get out of the city and
to the lake.

But as I said I did feel good for doing it, for helping someone. My
dilemma is does that feel good feeling obviate the selflessness of the
act?

Making a broad generalization here: Christians care much more than some
other folks about what is happening between your ears. You can sin in a dark
room motionless by yourself if you're a Christian. In some other traditions,
that wouldn't be possible. So, you can worry about your motivations if
you're squarely in the Christian tradition. If you're less of a Christian,
then be more concerned about what you actually did, which is help someone
out.

--
Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky
http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/
See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky

Bill Baka said:

recycled-one said:

Anyways on the way up the hill from the river a man in a wheelchair on the
sidewalk motions to me for help.

Now I am one of those people who look on those who use those motorized
scooter simply because they are morbidly obese with a certain amount of
scorn. Not a noble or compassionate attitude on my part but unexpressed of
course. That would be rude.

My attitude, too, gain 300 pounds and get a power chair, so no
compassion from me.

Does it ever occur to you that the power chair might have come before
the weight gain?

In the first few months after I broke my leg I didn't put on much
weight, maybe 5 pounds, in fact my upper body got really fit from my
insistence at pushing my own wheelchair. Then, as a measure to try to
get me spending more time on my crutches I was required to give up my
wheelchair for a power scooter.

By the time I learned to walk 4 months later I had already put on 25
pounds.

By the time I got good enough to give up the scooter I had 50 pounds.

By the time I got good at walking I was up to 250.

-M

Bill Baka said:

recycled-one said:

Anyways on the way up the hill from the river a man in a wheelchair on the
sidewalk motions to me for help.

Now I am one of those people who look on those who use those motorized
scooter simply because they are morbidly obese with a certain amount of
scorn. Not a noble or compassionate attitude on my part but unexpressed of
course. That would be rude.

My attitude, too, gain 300 pounds and get a power chair, so no
compassion from me.

Does it ever occur to you that the power chair might have come before
the weight gain?

In the first few months after I broke my leg I didn't put on much
weight, maybe 5 pounds, in fact my upper body got really fit from my
insistence at pushing my own wheelchair. Then, as a measure to try to
get me spending more time on my crutches I was required to give up my
wheelchair for a power scooter.

By the time I learned to walk 4 months later I had already put on 25
pounds.

By the time I got good enough to give up the scooter I had 50 pounds.

By the time I got good at walking I was up to 250. (that's weight, not
weight gain)

-M