a pet peeve- somewhat OT

send me more info... [email hidden]

2 Jun 2005 20:49:51 -0700,
<[email hidden]>,
"Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote, in part:
\szip

Quoted message said:

P.S.- No offense is intended to Canada or Canadians. These two cases
got press today and just happen to be from Canada.I could easily cite
cases at least as egregious here and I'm sure they exist in every other
"civilized" nation as well.

"Civilized" nations don't have death penalties so what would you
suggest as fitting sentences?

You saw it on your American media which is, in the words of one of its
moguls, focused too much on "the pervert of the day".

It's common knowledge on the street here that off-duty cops regularly
drove Downtown East Side sex-trade workers out to Robert Pickton's
Coquitlam pig farm for parties. He's charged with 23 of their murders.
--
zk

"Zoot Katz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

2 Jun 2005 20:49:51 -0700,
<[email hidden]>,
"Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote, in part:
\szip

Quoted message said:

P.S.- No offense is intended to Canada or Canadians. These two cases
got press today and just happen to be from Canada.I could easily cite
cases at least as egregious here and I'm sure they exist in every other
"civilized" nation as well.

"Civilized" nations don't have death penalties so what would you
suggest as fitting sentences?

Bah. In the age of DNA testing, we can now be 100% certain of a criminal's
guilt. The only problem with the death penalty is the length of time it
actually takes until they're executed.

Bob said:

Every few months a post appears here in RBM about the sentences imposed
on drivers that are convicted of some crime for their actions in a car
versus bike crash that results in the death or serious injury of a
cyclist. Inevitably, those posts elicit responses from some criticizing
the "slap on the wrist" sentences. Sometimes the sentences ARE far too
lenient but then the respondents seem to feel compelled to add, "Of
course he only got a slap on the wrist. It's a sign of our car-centric
culture." I wonder what those people would say about these cases:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/cpress/20050603/ca_pr_on_na/crime_sex_torture;_ylt=AiYuVV5dWePBztzXh4yoNN1u9L4F;_ylu=X3oDMTA0cDJlYmhvBHNlYwM-

Time most likely to be served in above case- 2 years and seven months.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/canada_homolka

Time actually served in above case- 12 years.

I wonder if any of the victims were cyclists or is Canada a "deviant
sex offender - friendly" nation?

No, definitely not... however the law does "work" in strange ways at times.

Quoted message said:

Regards,
Bob Hunt

P.S.- No offense is intended to Canada or Canadians. These two cases
got press today and just happen to be from Canada. I could easily cite
cases at least as egregious here and I'm sure they exist in every other
"civilized" nation as well.

The issue with the Homolka case was that the crown made a deal with her
to nail Bernardo. It wasn't until after the deal was made that the video
tapes came to light showing Homolka smiling and seemingly enjoying the
abuse inflicted upon the victims. As I understand the case, the crown
pretty much had no choice but make make the deal in order to put
Bernardo away for a long time.

Bernardo, her partner in the crime, is in prison for an indefinite
length of time, most likely the rest of his life.

Bob said:

Every few months a post appears here in RBM about the sentences imposed
on drivers that are convicted of some crime for their actions in a car
versus bike crash that results in the death or serious injury of a
cyclist. Inevitably, those posts elicit responses from some criticizing
the "slap on the wrist" sentences. Sometimes the sentences ARE far too
lenient but then the respondents seem to feel compelled to add, "Of
course he only got a slap on the wrist. It's a sign of our car-centric
culture." I wonder what those people would say about these cases:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/cpress/20050603/ca_pr_on_na/crime_sex_torture;_ylt=AiYuVV5dWePBztzXh4yoNN1u9L4F;_ylu=X3oDMTA0cDJlYmhvBHNlYwM-

Time most likely to be served in above case- 2 years and seven months.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/canada_homolka

Time actually served in above case- 12 years.

I wonder if any of the victims were cyclists or is Canada a "deviant
sex offender - friendly" nation?

Regards,
Bob Hunt

P.S.- No offense is intended to Canada or Canadians. These two cases
got press today and just happen to be from Canada. I could easily cite
cases at least as egregious here and I'm sure they exist in every other
"civilized" nation as well.

I say that these were both examples of plea bargaining, which may or may
not have been necessary in these cases. I'm no expert, but I'd guess
when & how much to bargain is a judgment call.

Personally, I think that for sexual predators, neutralizing the threat
is the goal rather than punishment. Registrys and GPS monitors may work
better than long jail terms, especially when balanced against the
chances that the charges won't stick. I feel the same way about drunk
drivers, I'd rather control the drinking than lock them up for life.

Gooserider said:

In the age of DNA testing, we can now be 100% certain of a criminal's
guilt. The only problem with the death penalty is the length of time it
actually takes until they're executed.

That and its application to offences committed by minors (now at last
dealt with). And those who are mentally incompetent. And the
apparent fact that poor black murderers are more likely to get fried
than rich white ones. And the fact that DNA evidence has been wrong
in the past. And the occasional bit of police corruption. And the
logical inconsistency of saying "thou shalt not kill, and if you do
we'll kill you". And the fact that once a crim knows they will fry
there is more incentive to shoot it out with the cops in an attempt to
get away. Apart from those, no, no problems at all. Well, not many,
anyway.

I am glad that I live in a country which does not have the death
penalty.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

Gooserider said:

"Zoot Katz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

2 Jun 2005 20:49:51 -0700,
<[email hidden]>,
"Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote, in part:
\szip

Quoted message said:

P.S.- No offense is intended to Canada or Canadians. These two cases
got press today and just happen to be from Canada.I could easily cite
cases at least as egregious here and I'm sure they exist in every other
"civilized" nation as well.

"Civilized" nations don't have death penalties so what would you
suggest as fitting sentences?

Bah. In the age of DNA testing, we can now be 100% certain of a criminal's
guilt. The only problem with the death penalty is the length of time it
actually takes until they're executed.

Actually, DNA evidence applied to old cases has shown that many people
are wrongly convicted. That is irrefutable. It is logical to conclude
that in cases where DNA evidence is not available many people are also
wrongly convicted.

"Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Every few months a post appears here in RBM about the sentences imposed
on drivers that are convicted of some crime for their actions in a car
versus bike crash that results in the death or serious injury of a
cyclist. Inevitably, those posts elicit responses from some criticizing
the "slap on the wrist" sentences. Sometimes the sentences ARE far too
lenient but then the respondents seem to feel compelled to add, "Of
course he only got a slap on the wrist. It's a sign of our car-centric
culture." I wonder what those people would say about these cases:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/cpress/20050603/ca_pr_on_na/crime_sex_torture;_ylt=AiYuVV5dWePBztzXh4yoNN1u9L4F;_ylu=X3oDMTA0cDJlYmhvBHNlYwM-

Quoted message said:

Time most likely to be served in above case- 2 years and seven months.

Keep in mind that that is until he is _eligible_ for parole. As your other
link demonstrates, Karla was denied parole and served her full term.

As well this person could easily be classified as a Dangerous Offender
which would allow for indefinite incarceration or, as is likely in Karla's
case, a form of preventative restrictions greater than simple parole.

Quoted message said:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/canada_homolka

Time actually served in above case- 12 years.

The full sentence of a plea bargain. Admittedly the deal was a travesty but
at the time the crown believed they needed her to make their case against
Paul Bernardo. As well at the time they believed she was a battered spouse.

But for the perceived need to make the case Karla would have received the
same sentence as her hubby: Life [25 years] + dangerous offender status so
that she would die in prison like her hubby will.

It's ironic that spousal abuse activists groups [which erroneously assume
domestic violence is almost always male on female - in reality is 50-50 in
regards to who is the abuser] who would normally use a Karla Homolka as a
poster child for their cause ran from her like she was Typhoid Karla.

Also keep in mind the court proceedings going on now that will severely
restrict Karla's freedom. she may not be imprisoned by physical bars but she
will not be 'free' in any normal sense for the rest of her life. And given
the popular sentiment I can imagine any jurisdiction she settles in will
look for the slightest excuse to send her back to prison.

If you want another travesty of Canadian justice system google on Clifford
Olsen: Paid $100,000 to reveal the locations of his victims. He will rot in
prison as well though.

[...]

Quoted message said:

P.S.- No offense is intended to Canada or Canadians. These two cases
got press today and just happen to be from Canada. I could easily cite
cases at least as egregious here and I'm sure they exist in every other
"civilized" nation as well.

I've heard, no substantiation mind you, that sex crimes are markedly higher
in Anglo-Germanic societies and those they colonized; UK,Germany, US,
Canada. Something to do with repressed urges or some such.

--
'Life is a tragedy for those who feel,
and a comedy for those who think.'
-jean de la bruyere

Peter Cole said:

Bob said:

Every few months a post appears here in RBM about the sentences imposed
on drivers that are convicted of some crime for their actions in a car
versus bike crash that results in the death or serious injury of a
cyclist. Inevitably, those posts elicit responses from some criticizing
the "slap on the wrist" sentences. Sometimes the sentences ARE far too
lenient but then the respondents seem to feel compelled to add, "Of
course he only got a slap on the wrist. It's a sign of our car-centric
culture." I wonder what those people would say about these cases:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/cpress/20050603/ca_pr_on_na/crime_sex_torture;_ylt=AiYuVV5dWePBztzXh4yoNN1u9L4F;_ylu=X3oDMTA0cDJlYmhvBHNlYwM-
Time most likely to be served in above case- 2 years and seven
months.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/canada_homolka
Time actually served in above case- 12 years.
I wonder if any of the victims were cyclists or is Canada a "deviant
sex offender - friendly" nation?
Regards,
Bob Hunt
P.S.- No offense is intended to Canada or Canadians. These two cases
got press today and just happen to be from Canada. I could easily cite
cases at least as egregious here and I'm sure they exist in every other
"civilized" nation as well.

I say that these were both examples of plea bargaining, which may or
may not have been necessary in these cases. I'm no expert, but I'd
guess when & how much to bargain is a judgment call.

Personally, I think that for sexual predators, neutralizing the threat
is the goal rather than punishment. Registrys and GPS monitors may
work better than long jail terms, especially when balanced against the
chances that the charges won't stick. I feel the same way about drunk
drivers, I'd rather control the drinking than lock them up for life.

Right. I think some talk of the "four R's" of criminal justice:
Restraint, Rehabilitation, Retribution, and Deterrence. That is, jails
and prisons are supposed to achieve some balance of these four goals:
1) prevent the criminal from committing further crimes by physically
keeping him segregated from society 2) prevent the criminal from
committing further crimes by "reeducating" him 3) inflict punishment to
satisfy needs for revenge and "justice" 4) encourage others to obey the
law to avoid unpleasant consequences.

Death penalty in the US seems to be mostly driven by a desire for more
of #3, which isn't terribly virtuous.

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Gooserider said:

In the age of DNA testing, we can now be 100% certain of a criminal's
guilt. The only problem with the death penalty is the length of time it
actually takes until they're executed.

That and its application to offences committed by minors (now at last
dealt with). And those who are mentally incompetent. And the
apparent fact that poor black murderers are more likely to get fried
than rich white ones. And the fact that DNA evidence has been wrong
in the past. And the occasional bit of police corruption. And the
logical inconsistency of saying "thou shalt not kill, and if you do
we'll kill you". And the fact that once a crim knows they will fry
there is more incentive to shoot it out with the cops in an attempt to
get away. Apart from those, no, no problems at all. Well, not many,
anyway.

I am glad that I live in a country which does not have the death
penalty.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

Well said.

Isn't it ironic that the much-trumpeted "Culture of Life" gleefully supports
the death penalty? And preemptive wars?

Do they not see the hypocrisy, or do they truly believe they're on a mission
from God?

GG

Fri, 3 Jun 2005 08:48:49 -0700, <[email hidden]>,

GaryG said:

Isn't it ironic that the much-trumpeted "Culture of Life" gleefully supports
the death penalty? And preemptive wars?

Do they not see the hypocrisy, or do they truly believe they're on a mission
from God?

Finally they've declared "War on Global Warming" that, according to
their so called scientists, didn't even exist two years ago.
Hypocrisy is the order of the day since they've not won a single one
of their previously declared wars on hunger, poverty, illiteracy,
drugs, terrorism, etc.

It should be obvious to the idiots that war is not the answer.
--
zk

On Fri, 3 Jun 2005 08:48:49 -0700, "GaryG" <[email hidden]>

wrote in message : said:

Isn't it ironic that the much-trumpeted "Culture of Life" gleefully supports
the death penalty? And preemptive wars?

Those guys are more like the Pharisees than they will ever realise,
they are so firmly stuck in the old testament that I question whether
they may not, in fact, be Jews rather then Christians...

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

: Those guys are more like the Pharisees than they will ever realise,
: they are so firmly stuck in the old testament that I question whether
: they may not, in fact, be Jews rather then Christians...
:
: Guy
:

Hey now! My Jewish friends do NOT act like these born-agains!

pat in TX

Zoot Katz said:

2 Jun 2005 20:49:51 -0700,
<[email hidden]>,
"Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote, in part:
\szip

Quoted message said:

P.S.- No offense is intended to Canada or Canadians. These two cases
got press today and just happen to be from Canada.I could easily cite
cases at least as egregious here and I'm sure they exist in every other
"civilized" nation as well.

"Civilized" nations don't have death penalties so what would you
suggest as fitting sentences?

You saw it on your American media which is, in the words of one of its
moguls, focused too much on "the pervert of the day".

It's common knowledge on the street here that off-duty cops regularly
drove Downtown East Side sex-trade workers out to Robert Pickton's
Coquitlam pig farm for parties. He's charged with 23 of their murders.
--
zk

Perhaps in *your* opinion the death penalty is "uncivilized" but that's
another issue. I'm afraid that you and all the others that have posted
their replies missed my point entirely so perhaps I wasn't clear
enough. In a world where serial rape, torture, and murder warrant 12
year prison sentences isn't it just a bit silly to blame
"auto-centrism" when a driver unintentionally albeit negligently or
recklessly kills a cyclist in a traffic crash and doesn't receive a
multi-year prison sentence?
As for your other observations:
"American media"? Read the bylines. The articles were from the CP
(Canadian Press) and AP (Associated Press). I was not slamming Canada
so try to curb your nationalism. <g>
One of the most basic questions in any homicide
investigation/prosecution is how did the victim and offender end up in
the same place at the same time. I'm sure that if your "common
knowledge on the street" is true it will be brought out in both the
investigation and the prosecution. Whether it has any basis in fact or
not though doesn't answer my question above. Care to give that question
a shot?

Regards,
Bob Hunt

3 Jun 2005 20:51:58 -0700,
<[email hidden]>, "Bob"

Quoted message said:

Perhaps in *your* opinion the death penalty is "uncivilized" but that's
another issue. I'm afraid that you and all the others that have posted
their replies missed my point entirely so perhaps I wasn't clear
enough. In a world where serial rape, torture, and murder warrant 12
year prison sentences isn't it just a bit silly to blame
"auto-centrism" when a driver unintentionally albeit negligently or
recklessly kills a cyclist in a traffic crash and doesn't receive a
multi-year prison sentence?

That was explained to you as being the outcome of plea bargaining.
Perhaps if they had run over the same number of victims their
punishments would have been points and a fine.

Quoted message said:

As for your other observations:
"American media"? Read the bylines. The articles were from the CP
(Canadian Press) and AP (Associated Press). I was not slamming Canada
so try to curb your nationalism. <g>

Sorry, my mistake. I figured you saw it on Faux TV or CNN but I guess
they're too busy featuring domestic perverts to worry about
foreigners.

Quoted message said:

One of the most basic questions in any homicide
investigation/prosecution is how did the victim and offender end up in
the same place at the same time. I'm sure that if your "common
knowledge on the street" is true it will be brought out in both the
investigation and the prosecution. Whether it has any basis in fact or
not though doesn't answer my question above. Care to give that question
a shot?

The accused lived out there on his pig farm. Cops and sex-trade
workers were often guests at parties held there. I'm not suggesting
the cops delivered the victims directly to their murderer on the dates
they were killed. I don't know that anyone is. They're just pointing
out the type of people who frequented the farm.

Over a period of ~8 years, more than 60 women disappeared from that
downtown neighbourhood. Their disappearances received little or no
attention from the police department until the community raised a
ruckus demanding action. The question is why it took so long for their
disappearances to be taken seriously. You wanna tackle that one?
--
zk

Tom Keats said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Bob said:

Perhaps in *your* opinion the death penalty is "uncivilized" but that's
another issue. I'm afraid that you and all the others that have posted
their replies missed my point entirely so perhaps I wasn't clear
enough. In a world where serial rape, torture, and murder warrant 12
year prison sentences isn't it just a bit silly to blame
"auto-centrism" when a driver unintentionally albeit negligently or
recklessly kills a cyclist in a traffic crash and doesn't receive a
multi-year prison sentence?

I prefer to let the courts deal with the retribution aspects,
but I do want the permanent removal of endangerments from the
road. By "endangerments" I mean killer drivers who have shown
themselves to have an utter disregard disregard for public safety,
like this guy:
http://www.recorder.ca/cp/National/050603/n0603119A.html

"Chan was sentenced last October and was also banned from
driving for three years."

I don't think he should be allowed to drive ever again.

cheers,
Tom

Not knowing anything about Chan beyond his age (21) and his apparent
predilection for driving fast I don't know if he deserves to be
permanently deprived of his privilege to drive but if he is we still
have to solve the root problem. The only way to permanently prevent
anyone from driving is to physically deny them access to automobiles.
The only way I know to accomplish that is to put them in a carless
setting for life. Since cars are literally everywhere how do we do
that?

Regards,
Bob Hunt

"Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
[...]

Quoted message said:

I'm beginning to think that no one wants to answer the question. I'll
try one more time and then drop the subject.
People that intentionally commit heinous crimes- murder and rape- quite
often receive sentences in the 20 to 30 year range. In most cases and
most localities only a portion of those sentences are actually served.
According to statistics published by the various States and the U.S.
Bureau of Prisons the *average* time actually spent behind bars for
intentional murder is just under eight years. In most States (and in
Canada) a life sentence doesn't REALLY mean that person will die in
prison. If it did that just under eight year average would be
impossible.
Knowing that, is it reasonable to claim that a 1-3 year sentence for
*unintentionally* killing someone in a traffic crash is the result of
some vaguely defined "car-centric value system"?

If the sentence is significantly less for a car-related unintentional death
when compared to other similar criminal convictions for non-car-related
unintentional deaths, then I'd say yes. I have no idea if this is or is not
the case.

Should the unintentional killer get a lesser sentence than an intentional
killer? Ceteris paribus, yes that makes sense. How much less is the question
though. What is reasonable? Three quarters the sentence of an intentional
homicide? Half? A third? Is one eighth [1-3 years compared to 8-25 years]
the sentence of an intentional murder being way too lax?

Does the legal system and hence society go easier on auto-related negligent
killers than others because it is a Kar Kulture? It wouldn't surprise me.
But then again attitudes have changed. It seems the lax opinions of DUI has
hardened somewhat over time.

In short I'm not disagreeing with your premise - nor agreeing. I don't know
what the stats are. Without knowing them it is hard to say whether
unintentional-auto-killers are under-punished. But having a 1-3 year
sentence compared to 8-25 doesn't seem overly harsh for the killer who
lacked intent.

--
'When my coffin is sealed and I'm safely 6 feet under
Perhaps my friends will see fit then to judge me
When they pause to consider all my blunders
I hope they won't be too quick to begrudge me.' -crash test dummies

4 Jun 2005 16:36:06 -0700,
<[email hidden]>, "Bob"

Quoted message said:

well, perhaps running over the
same number of victims in a car would result in the public hanging of
the driver. I'm sure if it did that you'd make an exception to your
opposition to capital punishment.

Hanging is too good for 'em.

Walk 'em to death supporting the victims' survivors and dependents.
--
zk

4 Jun 2005 20:00:29 -0700,
<[email hidden]>, "Bob"

Quoted message said:

Knowing that, is it reasonable to claim that a 1-3 year sentence for
*unintentionally* killing someone in a traffic crash is the result of
some vaguely defined "car-centric value system"?

You've still got a death at the hand of other. You say it's
unintentional. I say it's predictable.

FACT: Cars kill people and pets _e v e r y_ day.

It's the responsibility that must be accepted when strapping into a
scud. It's the responsibility that becomes a triviality in the
culture. Dangerous driving and murder is entertainment every day.
--
zk