A modestly dumbass proposal

Eh, that's not too crazy. I feel like most amateur USCF racing is
pretty clean. There's certainly never more than token cash and honor at
the end of any of my races (Cat3-4), and it's more than enough to keep
me going. Even at the Cat 1 level, unless you're staking your future on
a pro contract, you're racing because you love it. Cycling's way too
agonizing and unfair a sport to do if you don't love it.

-Cosmo
http://cyclocosm.com
(go to my page. you know you want to...)

Jet said:

OK target practice at this one, but bear with me - does it prove anything.

In bodybuilding, my sport, they have this fiasco called the NPC, or
'Natural Physique Championships', supposedly without drugging. Everyone
_supposedly_ enters that take nothing more than protein powder and mineral
water. ;-D

What about a 'Natural Cycling Championships'.

Ok this is totally st00pid, but it would at least be a venue that clean
riders could enter and not be forced to ride at 'two speeds'.

Let's, for the moment, totally ignore the 'clean' part.

Say we make it the honor system.

Here's a golden opportunity for the really clean guys, whom everyone knows
are clean to ride and show their ability.

Totally clean riders have ability, right? <g>

What would be the problem with doing that.

Obviously some numbnuts is going to try and enter doped and win it. But
won't the other riders know the scoop. If some dumbass wants to dope and
ride, let him. He can feel like a total fool.

At first you'd have just the honor <smirk> of participating. Just token
cash prizes, but you get the honor of being, arguably, a clean rider.

Would cyclists cheat themselves (of course they would, at first).

But could it evolve.

In some ways it took the NPC 10 years to evolve. There are still guys that
'roid up, but normally you look at the contestants and they don't look like
'roid monsters. Leaner physiques, more cut, they still do it, and
eventually the 'roiders got tired of entering, because it turned out that
the guys doing it were there for the love of the sport.

Holy cr*p, what a concept, lol.

OK.

Sandy gets two laughs today at my expense. Fine by me.

-jet

Dude where the hell have you been when I've been talking about all of
this for years here? The reality is the cash went with the IFBB, and we
all know what a joke their testing program is. You're right in that the
"naturals" are doing it for a love of the sport since there is nothing
else out there for them.
Several of us have proposed that cycling go to two tracks. One
unlimited like the IFBB, and one mostly clean. Unfortunately it's
really hard to make a living doing the "clean" circuit in either sport.
Paul Dillet could have had the best "natural" shape since Bob Paris,
but he went the Yates route for the cash. I still laugh my ass off over
his having to be carried off stage like a statue when he cramped up
from the diuretics.
Let's face it BB has become a complete joke after all the cash the
Weiders spent trying to buy Samaranch failed to get the job done.
Cycling doesn't need to go that route.
Bill C

OK, I'll bite.
I assume that by having clean BB there is the admission that there is
non clean BB.
That isn't the case in cycling. In cycling we have only clean cycling.
I'm not talking reality I'm talking the extant rules.
So, who among the pros do you think would be the first to sign up for
the non clean tour?

gds said:

OK, I'll bite.
I assume that by having clean BB there is the admission that there is
non clean BB.
That isn't the case in cycling. In cycling we have only clean cycling.
I'm not talking reality I'm talking the extant rules.
So, who among the pros do you think would be the first to sign up for
the non clean tour?

The thing is that the major BB Federation also claims to be clean,
like the UCI. Noone believes it for a minute. They have a testing
program etc. just like cycling and the money has gone with them as
people and sponsors pretend it's clean.
The natural track is is going nowhere except for personal respect.
What kept me from really getting anywhere back when natural shows were
rare as hell was my refusal to use all the shortcuts.
In IFBB stuff it's a constantly rotating drug rotation of anabolics,
then amphetamines and diuretics to cut up. Then an off cycle.
Almost all of the published, commonly availabe training routines are
based on steroids for recovery. You'll kill your progress trying most
of them naturally. The drugs are given a wink and nod, while everyone
pretends they aren't there despite the massive acne, gynecomastia,
acromegally. Then there're the instant calves and other tough things to
develop due to implants.
They pretend it's clean and point to the program while it's dirty as
hell. Schwartzinaname is still fielding questions about calf implants.
Bill C

Bill C said:

Quoted message said:

Holy cr*p, what a concept, lol.

OK.

Sandy gets two laughs today at my expense. Fine by me.

-jet

Quoted message said:

Dude where the hell have you been when I've been talking about all of
this for years here? The reality is the cash went with the IFBB, and we
all know what a joke their testing program is. You're right in that the
"naturals" are doing it for a love of the sport since there is nothing
else out there for them.

So we're on the same page?

Quoted message said:

Several of us have proposed that cycling go to two tracks. One
unlimited like the IFBB, and one mostly clean. Unfortunately it's
really hard to make a living doing the "clean" circuit in either sport.
Paul Dillet could have had the best "natural" shape since Bob Paris,
but he went the Yates route for the cash. I still laugh my ass off over
his having to be carried off stage like a statue when he cramped up
from the diuretics.

A closet BB fan. Cool. (j/k). My fav bb of all time wrt his clean lines and
symmetry and form (besides Reeves) was Frank Zane. It's almost ironic that
they used to call him "The Chemist". I'm glad to see that today he looks
ok, healthy and happy and still travels and trains and visits shows with
his wife Christine. He doesn't seem to have been affected by the steroids,
btw; not that this is an endorsement. But Frank could have fit right in
with he 'naturals' being small jointed, and soforth and ironically he'd
have fooled them.

Quoted message said:

Let's face it BB has become a complete joke after all the cash the
Weiders spent trying to buy Samaranch failed to get the job done.
Cycling doesn't need to go that route.
Bill C

Yeah, imo it became a joke when (and I have no idea when) guys started
using posing oil and implants. (Posing oil or synthol is stuff you inject
under your skin and around your muscles to make them look bigger than they
are. It's named that way because straights think it's tanning oil, lol)

OK, not sure now if you're saying do split into natural vs pro for cycling
or no.

BTW I only called the idea "dumbass" to self-deprecate - not to slam a good
idea you've been espousing.

-jet

Jet said:

Bill C said:

Quoted message said:

Holy cr*p, what a concept, lol.

OK.

Sandy gets two laughs today at my expense. Fine by me.

-jet

Quoted message said:

Dude where the hell have you been when I've been talking about all of
this for years here? The reality is the cash went with the IFBB, and we
all know what a joke their testing program is. You're right in that the
"naturals" are doing it for a love of the sport since there is nothing
else out there for them.

So we're on the same page?

Quoted message said:

Several of us have proposed that cycling go to two tracks. One
unlimited like the IFBB, and one mostly clean. Unfortunately it's
really hard to make a living doing the "clean" circuit in either sport.
Paul Dillet could have had the best "natural" shape since Bob Paris,
but he went the Yates route for the cash. I still laugh my ass off over
his having to be carried off stage like a statue when he cramped up
from the diuretics.

A closet BB fan. Cool. (j/k). My fav bb of all time wrt his clean lines and
symmetry and form (besides Reeves) was Frank Zane. It's almost ironic that
they used to call him "The Chemist". I'm glad to see that today he looks
ok, healthy and happy and still travels and trains and visits shows with
his wife Christine. He doesn't seem to have been affected by the steroids,
btw; not that this is an endorsement. But Frank could have fit right in
with he 'naturals' being small jointed, and soforth and ironically he'd
have fooled them.

Quoted message said:

Let's face it BB has become a complete joke after all the cash the
Weiders spent trying to buy Samaranch failed to get the job done.
Cycling doesn't need to go that route.
Bill C

Yeah, imo it became a joke when (and I have no idea when) guys started
using posing oil and implants. (Posing oil or synthol is stuff you inject
under your skin and around your muscles to make them look bigger than they
are. It's named that way because straights think it's tanning oil, lol)

OK, not sure now if you're saying do split into natural vs pro for cycling
or no.

BTW I only called the idea "dumbass" to self-deprecate - not to slam a good
idea you've been espousing.

-jet

Damn, I had Zane floating around, but wasn't sure how long you've been
at it.
I was pretty serious from about 1983 until all the injuries caught up
with me.
I do think it's pretty comparable if you look at most of the USCF
stuff as natural, and my opinion is that it's fairly clean from serious
[censored], and UCI stuff as IFBB which is a free for all.
I don't think I can get back to a 54" chest and 28" waist at 40 with
all the injuries, but I'm going to give it a shot again once my back
heals. To be honest most of the chest was actually in a massively thick
back. You know the saying, "strong back and a weak mind" ;-)
Bill C

Bill C said:

Jet said:

Bill C said:

> Holy cr*p, what a concept, lol.
>
> OK.
>
> Sandy gets two laughs today at my expense. Fine by me.
>
> -jet

Quoted message said:

Dude where the hell have you been when I've been talking about all of
this for years here? The reality is the cash went with the IFBB, and we
all know what a joke their testing program is. You're right in that the
"naturals" are doing it for a love of the sport since there is nothing
else out there for them.

So we're on the same page?

Quoted message said:

Several of us have proposed that cycling go to two tracks. One
unlimited like the IFBB, and one mostly clean. Unfortunately it's
really hard to make a living doing the "clean" circuit in either sport.
Paul Dillet could have had the best "natural" shape since Bob Paris,
but he went the Yates route for the cash. I still laugh my ass off over
his having to be carried off stage like a statue when he cramped up
from the diuretics.

A closet BB fan. Cool. (j/k). My fav bb of all time wrt his clean lines and
symmetry and form (besides Reeves) was Frank Zane. It's almost ironic that
they used to call him "The Chemist". I'm glad to see that today he looks
ok, healthy and happy and still travels and trains and visits shows with
his wife Christine. He doesn't seem to have been affected by the steroids,
btw; not that this is an endorsement. But Frank could have fit right in
with he 'naturals' being small jointed, and soforth and ironically he'd
have fooled them.

Quoted message said:

Let's face it BB has become a complete joke after all the cash the
Weiders spent trying to buy Samaranch failed to get the job done.
Cycling doesn't need to go that route.
Bill C

Yeah, imo it became a joke when (and I have no idea when) guys started
using posing oil and implants. (Posing oil or synthol is stuff you inject
under your skin and around your muscles to make them look bigger than they
are. It's named that way because straights think it's tanning oil, lol)

OK, not sure now if you're saying do split into natural vs pro for cycling
or no.

BTW I only called the idea "dumbass" to self-deprecate - not to slam a good
idea you've been espousing.

-jet

Damn, I had Zane floating around, but wasn't sure how long you've been
at it.
I was pretty serious from about 1983 until all the injuries caught up
with me.
I do think it's pretty comparable if you look at most of the USCF
stuff as natural, and my opinion is that it's fairly clean from serious
[censored], and UCI stuff as IFBB which is a free for all.
I don't think I can get back to a 54" chest and 28" waist at 40 with
all the injuries, but I'm going to give it a shot again once my back
heals. To be honest most of the chest was actually in a massively thick
back. You know the saying, "strong back and a weak mind" ;-)
Bill C

Well you were massive! I was more of a powerlifter type - this is what
bodybuilders say, lol, who never got a handle on their diet.

My best measurements cold were a relatively modest 46" chest, 18" arms, 18"
neck, 18" calves, and 29" waist. At 185 I broke 1000 in the PL, my bench
sucked! I've remarked before that it's a hoot that with cycling my calves
measured 19 cold last winter. I've lost some more size and I'm now down to
about 18 right and 17.5 left cold). But when I started in '68, I was tiny.
At 5'9, I weighed 152, and at one point my forearms were almost as big as
my biceps. I started doing dessicated liver and raw fertilized eggs and
heavy cream, (Vince Gironda!) in spring 1974 and by winter, hit 176lbs! My
squat went from 80lbs to 225, and by 1976 hit 350. I hit my best form in
1979 at 188lbs and (duh) then got married! That changed things, lol.

This will give you a chuckle, I still have the boxes and boxes of original
Iron Man Magazines with Peary Rader, and M&F and MD and MMI all that stuff.
Thought I might sell it one day and I check ebay now and then but no market
that I'm aware.

Got any snaps online? ;-)

-jet

Jet said:

Well you were massive! I was more of a powerlifter type - this is what
bodybuilders say, lol, who never got a handle on their diet.

My best measurements cold were a relatively modest 46" chest, 18" arms, 18"
neck, 18" calves, and 29" waist. At 185 I broke 1000 in the PL, my bench
sucked! I've remarked before that it's a hoot that with cycling my calves
measured 19 cold last winter. I've lost some more size and I'm now down to
about 18 right and 17.5 left cold). But when I started in '68, I was tiny.
At 5'9, I weighed 152, and at one point my forearms were almost as big as
my biceps. I started doing dessicated liver and raw fertilized eggs and
heavy cream, (Vince Gironda!) in spring 1974 and by winter, hit 176lbs! My
squat went from 80lbs to 225, and by 1976 hit 350. I hit my best form in
1979 at 188lbs and (duh) then got married! That changed things, lol.

This will give you a chuckle, I still have the boxes and boxes of original
Iron Man Magazines with Peary Rader, and M&F and MD and MMI all that stuff.
Thought I might sell it one day and I check ebay now and then but no market
that I'm aware.

Got any snaps online? ;-)

-jet

When you guys finish with your Al Bundy-esque memories, listen here.
There are people out there doping for group training rides. Not races,
rides. The honor system won't work in a "clean" division any better
than it works anywhere else in society.

Jet said:

Bill C said:

Jet said:

On 31 Oct 2005 15:26:33 -0800, "Bill C" <[email hidden]> wrote:

>> Holy cr*p, what a concept, lol.
>>
>> OK.
>>
>> Sandy gets two laughs today at my expense. Fine by me.
>>
>> -jet

> Dude where the hell have you been when I've been talking about all of
>this for years here? The reality is the cash went with the IFBB, and we
>all know what a joke their testing program is. You're right in that the
>"naturals" are doing it for a love of the sport since there is nothing
>else out there for them.

So we're on the same page?

> Several of us have proposed that cycling go to two tracks. One
>unlimited like the IFBB, and one mostly clean. Unfortunately it's
>really hard to make a living doing the "clean" circuit in either sport.
> Paul Dillet could have had the best "natural" shape since Bob Paris,
>but he went the Yates route for the cash. I still laugh my ass off over
>his having to be carried off stage like a statue when he cramped up
>from the diuretics.

A closet BB fan. Cool. (j/k). My fav bb of all time wrt his clean lines and
symmetry and form (besides Reeves) was Frank Zane. It's almost ironic that
they used to call him "The Chemist". I'm glad to see that today he looks
ok, healthy and happy and still travels and trains and visits shows with
his wife Christine. He doesn't seem to have been affected by the steroids,
btw; not that this is an endorsement. But Frank could have fit right in
with he 'naturals' being small jointed, and soforth and ironically he'd
have fooled them.

> Let's face it BB has become a complete joke after all the cash the
>Weiders spent trying to buy Samaranch failed to get the job done.
> Cycling doesn't need to go that route.
> Bill C

Yeah, imo it became a joke when (and I have no idea when) guys started
using posing oil and implants. (Posing oil or synthol is stuff you inject
under your skin and around your muscles to make them look bigger than they
are. It's named that way because straights think it's tanning oil, lol)

OK, not sure now if you're saying do split into natural vs pro for cycling
or no.

BTW I only called the idea "dumbass" to self-deprecate - not to slam a good
idea you've been espousing.

-jet

Damn, I had Zane floating around, but wasn't sure how long you've been
at it.
I was pretty serious from about 1983 until all the injuries caught up
with me.
I do think it's pretty comparable if you look at most of the USCF
stuff as natural, and my opinion is that it's fairly clean from serious
[censored], and UCI stuff as IFBB which is a free for all.
I don't think I can get back to a 54" chest and 28" waist at 40 with
all the injuries, but I'm going to give it a shot again once my back
heals. To be honest most of the chest was actually in a massively thick
back. You know the saying, "strong back and a weak mind" ;-)
Bill C

Well you were massive! I was more of a powerlifter type - this is what
bodybuilders say, lol, who never got a handle on their diet.

My best measurements cold were a relatively modest 46" chest, 18" arms, 18"
neck, 18" calves, and 29" waist. At 185 I broke 1000 in the PL, my bench
sucked! I've remarked before that it's a hoot that with cycling my calves
measured 19 cold last winter. I've lost some more size and I'm now down to
about 18 right and 17.5 left cold). But when I started in '68, I was tiny.
At 5'9, I weighed 152, and at one point my forearms were almost as big as
my biceps. I started doing dessicated liver and raw fertilized eggs and
heavy cream, (Vince Gironda!) in spring 1974 and by winter, hit 176lbs! My
squat went from 80lbs to 225, and by 1976 hit 350. I hit my best form in
1979 at 188lbs and (duh) then got married! That changed things, lol.

This will give you a chuckle, I still have the boxes and boxes of original
Iron Man Magazines with Peary Rader, and M&F and MD and MMI all that stuff.
Thought I might sell it one day and I check ebay now and then but no market
that I'm aware.

Got any snaps online? ;-)

-jet

LOL Vince Gironda.
I think he was the last of the pre-roids people with a clue.
No just a few recent fat pics. We seem to be pretty close:
I'm 265 right now after going off the deep end again.
Neck: 19 1/4
Wrist: 7 3/4
Ankle: 9 3/4
Hips: 44
Waist 48
Quads L-25 1/2 R- 24 1/2
Calves L 18 R 18 1/2
Chest 51 1/4
Shoulders 53
Biceps L 14 3/4 R- 15 1/2
Forearms 12 3/4 both
I'm at about 35% right now
I'm pretty depressed at these measurements but the wife did them and
they're on the money. I have had about 3 decent workouts in the gym in
the last 5 years due to stupid [censored].
The goal is to get back to 180 while gaining muscle by next June.
I'd be interested to have measurements from other people here just for
comparison.
Don't know if you've seen Matt Svatek race but he'd be competitive
IMO.
Bill C

Carl Sundquist said:

Jet said:

Well you were massive! I was more of a powerlifter type - this is what
bodybuilders say, lol, who never got a handle on their diet.

My best measurements cold were a relatively modest 46" chest, 18" arms, 18"
neck, 18" calves, and 29" waist. At 185 I broke 1000 in the PL, my bench
sucked! I've remarked before that it's a hoot that with cycling my calves
measured 19 cold last winter. I've lost some more size and I'm now down to
about 18 right and 17.5 left cold). But when I started in '68, I was tiny.
At 5'9, I weighed 152, and at one point my forearms were almost as big as
my biceps. I started doing dessicated liver and raw fertilized eggs and
heavy cream, (Vince Gironda!) in spring 1974 and by winter, hit 176lbs! My
squat went from 80lbs to 225, and by 1976 hit 350. I hit my best form in
1979 at 188lbs and (duh) then got married! That changed things, lol.

This will give you a chuckle, I still have the boxes and boxes of original
Iron Man Magazines with Peary Rader, and M&F and MD and MMI all that stuff.
Thought I might sell it one day and I check ebay now and then but no market
that I'm aware.

Got any snaps online? ;-)

-jet

When you guys finish with your Al Bundy-esque memories, listen here.
There are people out there doping for group training rides. Not races,
rides. The honor system won't work in a "clean" division any better
than it works anywhere else in society.

Well Duh, Carl. Restating the obvious? I don't think either one of us
seriously thinks that'd work in cycling since it doesn't work in
bodybuilding.
The comparison is valid though IMO.
I'm in the Homer Simpson category these days, though Al has a good
handle on it too.
Bill C

Carl Sundquist said:

Quoted message said:

Got any snaps online? ;-)

-jet

When you guys finish with your Al Bundy-esque memories, listen here.
There are people out there doping for group training rides. Not races,
rides. The honor system won't work in a "clean" division any better
than it works anywhere else in society.

LOL!!

<points at Bill> He made me do it! ;-D

-jet

Carl Sundquist said:

Quoted message said:

Got any snaps online? ;-)

-jet

When you guys finish with your Al Bundy-esque memories, listen here.
There are people out there doping for group training rides. Not races,
rides. The honor system won't work in a "clean" division any better
than it works anywhere else in society.

LOL!!

<points at Bill> He made me do it! ;-D

-jet

Carl Sundquist said:

Quoted message said:

Got any snaps online? ;-)

-jet

When you guys finish with your Al Bundy-esque memories, listen here.
There are people out there doping for group training rides. Not races,
rides. The honor system won't work in a "clean" division any better
than it works anywhere else in society.

LOL!!

<points at Bill> He made me do it! ;-D

-jet

Quoted message said:

The honor system won't work in a "clean" division any better
than it works anywhere else in society.

Unfortunately, this includes drug-testers.

Quoted message said:

The honor system won't work in a "clean" division any better
than it works anywhere else in society.

Unfortunately, this includes drug-testers.

Quoted message said:

The honor system won't work in a "clean" division any better
than it works anywhere else in society.

Unfortunately, this includes drug-testers.

Carl Sundquist said:

There are people out there doping for group training rides. Not races,
rides.

You've got to be kidding me. I've read this in here before, but I've
always taken it as typical RBR extremist overstatement.

Carl Sundquist said:

There are people out there doping for group training rides. Not races,
rides.

You've got to be kidding me. I've read this in here before, but I've
always taken it as typical RBR extremist overstatement.

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Carl Sundquist said:

When you guys finish with your Al Bundy-esque memories, listen here.
There are people out there doping for group training rides. Not races,
rides. The honor system won't work in a "clean" division any better
than it works anywhere else in society.

Does anyone wish to confirm this about training rides? Are
they practicing their doping technique? Makes sense to me.

--
Michael Press
The rest of the world.