A guess for Wednesday...

In article <[email hidden]>,

need more sun said:

...especially now he has broken his links with the team. If he was
innocent and knew his DNA would show that, he wouldn't leave Discovery
so quickly. Basso is, in my view, going to plead guilty in the hope
CONI gives him less than two years. That means he will be back in time
for the 2009 Giro and Tour.

Discovery, meanwhile, must be regretting the way they p**ssed all over
the ethical code. Nice one guys. If you end up with no sponsor for
next year, many teams will be happy. I think the correct phrase is
'egg all over the face' now.

nms: what riders will be left on any team?

Evil thought: what if the witch hunt is catching witches? What if it's
doing it every time? What if they really are all witches? Has anyone
seen a bike racer who doesn't float?

Once again, my love for amateur racing is reinforced.

Heck, the more amateur the better: bring on the Cat 5 crash-fests!

I gotta finish my cyclocross bike.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Ryan Cousineau said:

Evil thought: what if the witch hunt is catching witches? What if it's
doing it every time? What if they really are all witches? Has anyone
seen a bike racer who doesn't float?

Time for another stage through the Passage du Gois, this time during high
tide ?

On Tue, 01 May 2007 02:11:28 GMT, Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Evil thought: what if the witch hunt is catching witches? What if it's
doing it every time? What if they really are all witches? Has anyone
seen a bike racer who doesn't float?

Yeah, and they're no good unless they weigh about what a duck weighs.
Does Pound have a duck?

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

need more sun said:

...especially now he has broken his links with the team. If he was
innocent and knew his DNA would show that, he wouldn't leave Discovery
so quickly. Basso is, in my view, going to plead guilty in the hope
CONI gives him less than two years. That means he will be back in time
for the 2009 Giro and Tour.

Discovery, meanwhile, must be regretting the way they p**ssed all over
the ethical code. Nice one guys. If you end up with no sponsor for
next year, many teams will be happy. I think the correct phrase is
'egg all over the face' now.

Basso signed a contract with Discovery that he would present a DNA
test if asked. His lawyer told him that he'd be a fool to offer his
DNA and he has some rights on that subject in Italy.

I realize that you believe that a man is guilty with the very
accusation by anyone including the guy he beat in his junior year but
perhaps the real world might intrude on your ability to synthesize
reality.

Quoted message said:

need more sun said:

...especially now he has broken his links with the team. If he was
innocent and knew his DNA would show that, he wouldn't leave Discovery
so quickly. Basso is, in my view, going to plead guilty in the hope
CONI gives him less than two years. That means he will be back in time
for the 2009 Giro and Tour.

Quoted message said:

Discovery, meanwhile, must be regretting the way they p**ssed all over
the ethical code. Nice one guys. If you end up with no sponsor for
next year, many teams will be happy. I think the correct phrase is
'egg all over the face' now.

Basso signed a contract with Discovery that he would present a DNA
test if asked. His lawyer told him that he'd be a fool to offer his
DNA and he has some rights on that subject in Italy.

I realize that you believe that a man is guilty with the very
accusation by anyone including the guy he beat in his junior year but
perhaps the real world might intrude on your ability to synthesize
reality.

Basso said at the time that he would present his DNA only if
specifically asked in a judicial process..which looked extremely
unlikely at the time. He previously declined to give Bjarne Riis his
DNA - Riis said that had he done this, he could have stayed with the
team. Basso has not acted like an innocent man (and neither has his
liar/lawyer). All this humming and hawing and nonsense about DNA not
being accurate, rather than just handing it over and being declared
innocent (if that is indeed what he is).

Imagine you are accused of something, but have a way to clear yourself
and take pressure off you and your team. Surely you would do that as
soon as possible? Not [censored] around with excuses and time-wasting
tactics. Furthermore, if you are innocent, you don't give interviews
where you simply say 'ask my lawyer' or 'my lawyer is dealing with
that stuff now' when you are asked about your implication in a very
serious doping investigation.

You may not like to hear it, but Basso has most certainly not acted
like an innocent man. So forgive me, after years of this kind of
nonsense from riders subsequently found out to be dopers, if I am
running out of patience with the kind of BS that has come from him and
the team. I would bet my house on Basso being guilty, and also that
this will come out sooner rather than later.

But if you want to have your head in the sand, that is your right.

Get Basso and the others all out now. If the sport is to have a
future, we need this kind of [censored] to end, once and for all. We have
had enough.

need more sun said:

Quoted message said:

On Apr 30, 2:12 pm, need more sun <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

...especially now he has broken his links with the team. If he was
innocent and knew his DNA would show that, he wouldn't leave Discovery
so quickly. Basso is, in my view, going to plead guilty in the hope
CONI gives him less than two years. That means he will be back in time
for the 2009 Giro and Tour.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Discovery, meanwhile, must be regretting the way they p**ssed all over
the ethical code. Nice one guys. If you end up with no sponsor for
next year, many teams will be happy. I think the correct phrase is
'egg all over the face' now.

Quoted message said:

Basso signed a contract with Discovery that he would present a DNA
test if asked. His lawyer told him that he'd be a fool to offer his
DNA and he has some rights on that subject in Italy.

Quoted message said:

I realize that you believe that a man is guilty with the very
accusation by anyone including the guy he beat in his junior year but
perhaps the real world might intrude on your ability to synthesize
reality.

Basso said at the time that he would present his DNA only if
specifically asked in a judicial process..which looked extremely
unlikely at the time. He previously declined to give Bjarne Riis his
DNA - Riis said that had he done this, he could have stayed with the
team. Basso has not acted like an innocent man (and neither has his
liar/lawyer). All this humming and hawing and nonsense about DNA not
being accurate, rather than just handing it over and being declared
innocent (if that is indeed what he is).

Imagine you are accused of something, but have a way to clear yourself
and take pressure off you and your team. Surely you would do that as
soon as possible? Not [censored] around with excuses and time-wasting
tactics. Furthermore, if you are innocent, you don't give interviews
where you simply say 'ask my lawyer' or 'my lawyer is dealing with
that stuff now' when you are asked about your implication in a very
serious doping investigation.

You may not like to hear it, but Basso has most certainly not acted
like an innocent man. So forgive me, after years of this kind of
nonsense from riders subsequently found out to be dopers, if I am
running out of patience with the kind of BS that has come from him and
the team. I would bet my house on Basso being guilty, and also that
this will come out sooner rather than later.

But if you want to have your head in the sand, that is your right.

Get Basso and the others all out now. If the sport is to have a
future, we need this kind of [censored] to end, once and for all. We have
had enough.

Also, if his lawyer said that he would be a fool to give his DNA, then
his lawyer is an idiot. Or a liar. If someone is innocent, a good
lawyer's job is to clear them as soon as possible. However, if they
are guilty, the lawyer clearly can't do this. So he will do all he can
to avoid giving implicating evidence.

Wise words: there is none so blind as those who will not see. The
truth is right in front of you. But maybe you need CONI to tell you
what was really going on? If so, just wait a while longer..

need more sun said:

need more sun said:

On May 1, 6:03 pm, [email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Apr 30, 2:12 pm, need more sun <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> ...especially now he has broken his links with the team. If he was
> innocent and knew his DNA would show that, he wouldn't leave Discovery
> so quickly. Basso is, in my view, going to plead guilty in the hope
> CONI gives him less than two years. That means he will be back in time
> for the 2009 Giro and Tour.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Discovery, meanwhile, must be regretting the way they p**ssed all over
> the ethical code. Nice one guys. If you end up with no sponsor for
> next year, many teams will be happy. I think the correct phrase is
> 'egg all over the face' now.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Basso signed a contract with Discovery that he would present a DNA
test if asked. His lawyer told him that he'd be a fool to offer his
DNA and he has some rights on that subject in Italy.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I realize that you believe that a man is guilty with the very
accusation by anyone including the guy he beat in his junior year but
perhaps the real world might intrude on your ability to synthesize
reality.

Quoted message said:

Basso said at the time that he would present his DNA only if
specifically asked in a judicial process..which looked extremely
unlikely at the time. He previously declined to give Bjarne Riis his
DNA - Riis said that had he done this, he could have stayed with the
team. Basso has not acted like an innocent man (and neither has his
liar/lawyer). All this humming and hawing and nonsense about DNA not
being accurate, rather than just handing it over and being declared
innocent (if that is indeed what he is).

Quoted message said:

Imagine you are accused of something, but have a way to clear yourself
and take pressure off you and your team. Surely you would do that as
soon as possible? Not [censored] around with excuses and time-wasting
tactics. Furthermore, if you are innocent, you don't give interviews
where you simply say 'ask my lawyer' or 'my lawyer is dealing with
that stuff now' when you are asked about your implication in a very
serious doping investigation.

Quoted message said:

You may not like to hear it, but Basso has most certainly not acted
like an innocent man. So forgive me, after years of this kind of
nonsense from riders subsequently found out to be dopers, if I am
running out of patience with the kind of BS that has come from him and
the team. I would bet my house on Basso being guilty, and also that
this will come out sooner rather than later.

Quoted message said:

But if you want to have your head in the sand, that is your right.

Quoted message said:

Get Basso and the others all out now. If the sport is to have a
future, we need this kind of [censored] to end, once and for all. We have
had enough.

Also, if his lawyer said that he would be a fool to give his DNA, then
his lawyer is an idiot. Or a liar. If someone is innocent, a good
lawyer's job is to clear them as soon as possible. However, if they
are guilty, the lawyer clearly can't do this. So he will do all he can
to avoid giving implicating evidence.

Wise words: there is none so blind as those who will not see. The
truth is right in front of you. But maybe you need CONI to tell you
what was really going on? If so, just wait a while longer..- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yep, why don't you just contact the RCMP, let them know when you were
in the area of any of their unsolved crimes, and then submit a DNA
sample. I hear the Houston PD lab would be happy to help you too.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/05/01/auditorgeneral.html?ref=rss
Quoted:
Issues raised years ago
Fraser also uncovered "significant weaknesses" in how the laboratory
service defines, monitors and resolves quality issues related to its
work. Notably, the system was unable to identify problems with an
automated process introduced to test DNA.

"Given these major shortcomings, overall the RCMP cannot be said to
perform satisfactorily in this area."

I don't think Wada is any more credible. Sounds like your the kind of
person who, when accused of jaywalking would confess to murder. I
assume that you've been fingerprinted, provided a precautionary DNA
sample, etc... to your government crime/anti-terror people because
they would never misuse them or make an error.
Bill C

Benjamin Franklin
They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security,
deserve neither liberty or security

"need more sun" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

need more sun said:

...especially now he has broken his links with the team. If he was
innocent and knew his DNA would show that, he wouldn't leave Discovery
so quickly. Basso is, in my view, going to plead guilty in the hope
CONI gives him less than two years. That means he will be back in time
for the 2009 Giro and Tour.

Quoted message said:

Discovery, meanwhile, must be regretting the way they p**ssed all over
the ethical code. Nice one guys. If you end up with no sponsor for
next year, many teams will be happy. I think the correct phrase is
'egg all over the face' now.

Basso signed a contract with Discovery that he would present a DNA
test if asked. His lawyer told him that he'd be a fool to offer his
DNA and he has some rights on that subject in Italy.

I realize that you believe that a man is guilty with the very
accusation by anyone including the guy he beat in his junior year but
perhaps the real world might intrude on your ability to synthesize
reality.

Basso said at the time that he would present his DNA only if
specifically asked in a judicial process..which looked extremely
unlikely at the time. He previously declined to give Bjarne Riis his
DNA - Riis said that had he done this, he could have stayed with the
team. Basso has not acted like an innocent man (and neither has his
liar/lawyer). All this humming and hawing and nonsense about DNA not
being accurate, rather than just handing it over and being declared
innocent (if that is indeed what he is).

Imagine you are accused of something, but have a way to clear yourself
and take pressure off you and your team. Surely you would do that as
soon as possible? Not [censored] around with excuses and time-wasting
tactics. Furthermore, if you are innocent, you don't give interviews
where you simply say 'ask my lawyer' or 'my lawyer is dealing with
that stuff now' when you are asked about your implication in a very
serious doping investigation.

You may not like to hear it, but Basso has most certainly not acted
like an innocent man. So forgive me, after years of this kind of
nonsense from riders subsequently found out to be dopers, if I am
running out of patience with the kind of BS that has come from him and
the team. I would bet my house on Basso being guilty, and also that
this will come out sooner rather than later.

But if you want to have your head in the sand, that is your right.

Get Basso and the others all out now. If the sport is to have a
future, we need this kind of [censored] to end, once and for all. We have
had enough.

It's not that I don't disagree with you. It's that Basso has the right to
refuse to incriminate himself and until found guilty SHOULD be assumed
innocent.

"need more sun" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Also, if his lawyer said that he would be a fool to give his DNA, then
his lawyer is an idiot. Or a liar. If someone is innocent, a good
lawyer's job is to clear them as soon as possible.

Maybe you missed the Floyd Landis case in point? Are these the people YOU
would trust with your career?

Bill C said:

need more sun said:

On May 1, 10:04 pm, need more sun <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On May 1, 6:03 pm, [email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> On Apr 30, 2:12 pm, need more sun <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > ...especially now he has broken his links with the team. If he was
> > innocent and knew his DNA would show that, he wouldn't leave Discovery
> > so quickly. Basso is, in my view, going to plead guilty in the hope
> > CONI gives him less than two years. That means he will be back in time
> > for the 2009 Giro and Tour.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > Discovery, meanwhile, must be regretting the way they p**ssed all over
> > the ethical code. Nice one guys. If you end up with no sponsor for
> > next year, many teams will be happy. I think the correct phrase is
> > 'egg all over the face' now.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Basso signed a contract with Discovery that he would present a DNA
> test if asked. His lawyer told him that he'd be a fool to offer his
> DNA and he has some rights on that subject in Italy.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I realize that you believe that a man is guilty with the very
> accusation by anyone including the guy he beat in his junior year but
> perhaps the real world might intrude on your ability to synthesize
> reality.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Basso said at the time that he would present his DNA only if
specifically asked in a judicial process..which looked extremely
unlikely at the time. He previously declined to give Bjarne Riis his
DNA - Riis said that had he done this, he could have stayed with the
team. Basso has not acted like an innocent man (and neither has his
liar/lawyer). All this humming and hawing and nonsense about DNA not
being accurate, rather than just handing it over and being declared
innocent (if that is indeed what he is).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Imagine you are accused of something, but have a way to clear yourself
and take pressure off you and your team. Surely you would do that as
soon as possible? Not [censored] around with excuses and time-wasting
tactics. Furthermore, if you are innocent, you don't give interviews
where you simply say 'ask my lawyer' or 'my lawyer is dealing with
that stuff now' when you are asked about your implication in a very
serious doping investigation.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You may not like to hear it, but Basso has most certainly not acted
like an innocent man. So forgive me, after years of this kind of
nonsense from riders subsequently found out to be dopers, if I am
running out of patience with the kind of BS that has come from him and
the team. I would bet my house on Basso being guilty, and also that
this will come out sooner rather than later.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But if you want to have your head in the sand, that is your right.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Get Basso and the others all out now. If the sport is to have a
future, we need this kind of [censored] to end, once and for all. We have
had enough.

Quoted message said:

Also, if his lawyer said that he would be a fool to give his DNA, then
his lawyer is an idiot. Or a liar. If someone is innocent, a good
lawyer's job is to clear them as soon as possible. However, if they
are guilty, the lawyer clearly can't do this. So he will do all he can
to avoid giving implicating evidence.

Quoted message said:

Wise words: there is none so blind as those who will not see. The
truth is right in front of you. But maybe you need CONI to tell you
what was really going on? If so, just wait a while longer..- Hide quoted text -

Quoted message said:

- Show quoted text -

Yep, why don't you just contact the RCMP, let them know when you were
in the area of any of their unsolved crimes, and then submit a DNA
sample. I hear the Houston PD lab would be happy to help you too.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/05/01/auditorgeneral.html?ref=rss
Quoted:
Issues raised years ago
Fraser also uncovered "significant weaknesses" in how the laboratory
service defines, monitors and resolves quality issues related to its
work. Notably, the system was unable to identify problems with an
automated process introduced to test DNA.

"Given these major shortcomings, overall the RCMP cannot be said to
perform satisfactorily in this area."

I don't think Wada is any more credible. Sounds like your the kind of
person who, when accused of jaywalking would confess to murder. I
assume that you've been fingerprinted, provided a precautionary DNA
sample, etc... to your government crime/anti-terror people because
they would never misuse them or make an error.
Bill C

Benjamin Franklin
They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security,
deserve neither liberty or security

And what about the rights of innocent riders who have to race against
junked-up competitors? Or the rights of normal cyclists to have a
healthy, reputable sport instead of one which is falling apart? Give
me a break. I'm not talking about sending him to prison. But I am
talking about getting Basso to do whatever it takes to clear himself
(if he is, as you must feel against all indications, actually
innocent). Or to show he is guilty after all. But he won't do that,
will he?

Only liars have something to hide from the truth coming out.

On 2 May 2007 01:45:49 -0700, need more sun <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Only liars have something to hide from the truth coming out.

Interesting world completing lacking in nuance that you live in. The
truth easily hurts the innocent on many occasions - only the person
knowing the entire truth and the complete context would know one way
or the other.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

need more sun said:

Bill C said:

On May 1, 5:10 pm, need more sun <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On May 1, 10:04 pm, need more sun <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> On May 1, 6:03 pm, [email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > On Apr 30, 2:12 pm, need more sun <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > ...especially now he has broken his links with the team. If he was
> > > innocent and knew his DNA would show that, he wouldn't leave Discovery
> > > so quickly. Basso is, in my view, going to plead guilty in the hope
> > > CONI gives him less than two years. That means he will be back in time
> > > for the 2009 Giro and Tour.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > Discovery, meanwhile, must be regretting the way they p**ssed all over
> > > the ethical code. Nice one guys. If you end up with no sponsor for
> > > next year, many teams will be happy. I think the correct phrase is
> > > 'egg all over the face' now.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > Basso signed a contract with Discovery that he would present a DNA
> > test if asked. His lawyer told him that he'd be a fool to offer his
> > DNA and he has some rights on that subject in Italy.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > I realize that you believe that a man is guilty with the very
> > accusation by anyone including the guy he beat in his junior year but
> > perhaps the real world might intrude on your ability to synthesize
> > reality.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Basso said at the time that he would present his DNA only if
> specifically asked in a judicial process..which looked extremely
> unlikely at the time. He previously declined to give Bjarne Riis his
> DNA - Riis said that had he done this, he could have stayed with the
> team. Basso has not acted like an innocent man (and neither has his
> liar/lawyer). All this humming and hawing and nonsense about DNA not
> being accurate, rather than just handing it over and being declared
> innocent (if that is indeed what he is).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Imagine you are accused of something, but have a way to clear yourself
> and take pressure off you and your team. Surely you would do that as
> soon as possible? Not [censored] around with excuses and time-wasting
> tactics. Furthermore, if you are innocent, you don't give interviews
> where you simply say 'ask my lawyer' or 'my lawyer is dealing with
> that stuff now' when you are asked about your implication in a very
> serious doping investigation.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> You may not like to hear it, but Basso has most certainly not acted
> like an innocent man. So forgive me, after years of this kind of
> nonsense from riders subsequently found out to be dopers, if I am
> running out of patience with the kind of BS that has come from him and
> the team. I would bet my house on Basso being guilty, and also that
> this will come out sooner rather than later.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> But if you want to have your head in the sand, that is your right.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Get Basso and the others all out now. If the sport is to have a
> future, we need this kind of [censored] to end, once and for all. We have
> had enough.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Also, if his lawyer said that he would be a fool to give his DNA, then
his lawyer is an idiot. Or a liar. If someone is innocent, a good
lawyer's job is to clear them as soon as possible. However, if they
are guilty, the lawyer clearly can't do this. So he will do all he can
to avoid giving implicating evidence.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Wise words: there is none so blind as those who will not see. The
truth is right in front of you. But maybe you need CONI to tell you
what was really going on? If so, just wait a while longer..- Hide quoted text -

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

- Show quoted text -

Quoted message said:

Yep, why don't you just contact the RCMP, let them know when you were
in the area of any of their unsolved crimes, and then submit a DNA
sample. I hear the Houston PD lab would be happy to help you too.

Quoted message said:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/05/01/auditorgeneral.html?ref=rss
Quoted:
Issues raised years ago
Fraser also uncovered "significant weaknesses" in how the laboratory
service defines, monitors and resolves quality issues related to its
work. Notably, the system was unable to identify problems with an
automated process introduced to test DNA.

Quoted message said:

"Given these major shortcomings, overall the RCMP cannot be said to
perform satisfactorily in this area."

Quoted message said:

I don't think Wada is any more credible. Sounds like your the kind of
person who, when accused of jaywalking would confess to murder. I
assume that you've been fingerprinted, provided a precautionary DNA
sample, etc... to your government crime/anti-terror people because
they would never misuse them or make an error.
Bill C

Quoted message said:

Benjamin Franklin
They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security,
deserve neither liberty or security

And what about the rights of innocent riders who have to race against
junked-up competitors? Or the rights of normal cyclists to have a
healthy, reputable sport instead of one which is falling apart? Give
me a break. I'm not talking about sending him to prison. But I am
talking about getting Basso to do whatever it takes to clear himself
(if he is, as you must feel against all indications, actually
innocent). Or to show he is guilty after all. But he won't do that,
will he?

Only liars have something to hide from the truth coming out.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I don't think Basso is innocent. I don't know. I also don't think that
the Wada kangaroo court proves anything conclusively either except in
the very few open/shut cases they get. If the system was open, fair,
under independent oversight, and had a reasonable appeals process then
I "might" suggest Basso submit his DNA for testing.
There is NOTHING in Wada and Pounds behavior that indicates athletes
are going to get a fair hearing. After all Pound has stated that they
are all guilty, they just haven't been caught yet.
Get rid of Pound, reform Wada, establish a riders union with some
teeth to provide some balance, prosecute the rich and powerful sports
like football/soccer too, endorse appeals to the civilian court system
then when there is some justice in the system come back to me about
how riders should prove they aren't guilty. It shouldn't be, that
anyone, is considered guilty until proven innocent and is forced to
prove the negative or face penalties. You'll never get me to sign off
on that system as "just".
Bill C

In article <[email hidden]>,

Bob Schwartz said:

Admit it. You're comfortable with doping in sport, as long as
you don't see it.

It's the same with food: people are comfortable with food, so long as
they don't know how it was made, slaughtered, caught or raised.
Ignorance *can* be bliss...

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Howard Kveck said:

It's the same with food: people are comfortable with food, so long as
they don't know how it was made, slaughtered, caught or raised.
Ignorance *can* be bliss...

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

What I've always been amused by is anti-hunters, or militant
vegetarians wearing real leather. Or for that matter anti-hunters who
eat things like veal, or chicken from 95% of the sources out there.
Hunted game is the ultimate free range meat and a hell of a lot more
humane than the vast majority of commercial livestock farming.
The commercial stuff has probably been doped better than VDB's dogs
too, but for bodybuilding not racing.
Bill C

Bill C said:

need more sun said:

On May 2, 12:59 am, Bill C <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On May 1, 5:10 pm, need more sun <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> On May 1, 10:04 pm, need more sun <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > On May 1, 6:03 pm, [email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > On Apr 30, 2:12 pm, need more sun <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > ...especially now he has broken his links with the team. If he was
> > > > innocent and knew his DNA would show that, he wouldn't leave Discovery
> > > > so quickly. Basso is, in my view, going to plead guilty in the hope
> > > > CONI gives him less than two years. That means he will be back in time
> > > > for the 2009 Giro and Tour.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > Discovery, meanwhile, must be regretting the way they p**ssed all over
> > > > the ethical code. Nice one guys. If you end up with no sponsor for
> > > > next year, many teams will be happy. I think the correct phrase is
> > > > 'egg all over the face' now.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > Basso signed a contract with Discovery that he would present a DNA
> > > test if asked. His lawyer told him that he'd be a fool to offer his
> > > DNA and he has some rights on that subject in Italy.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > I realize that you believe that a man is guilty with the very
> > > accusation by anyone including the guy he beat in his junior year but
> > > perhaps the real world might intrude on your ability to synthesize
> > > reality.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > Basso said at the time that he would present his DNA only if
> > specifically asked in a judicial process..which looked extremely
> > unlikely at the time. He previously declined to give Bjarne Riis his
> > DNA - Riis said that had he done this, he could have stayed with the
> > team. Basso has not acted like an innocent man (and neither has his
> > liar/lawyer). All this humming and hawing and nonsense about DNA not
> > being accurate, rather than just handing it over and being declared
> > innocent (if that is indeed what he is).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > Imagine you are accused of something, but have a way to clear yourself
> > and take pressure off you and your team. Surely you would do that as
> > soon as possible? Not [censored] around with excuses and time-wasting
> > tactics. Furthermore, if you are innocent, you don't give interviews
> > where you simply say 'ask my lawyer' or 'my lawyer is dealing with
> > that stuff now' when you are asked about your implication in a very
> > serious doping investigation.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > You may not like to hear it, but Basso has most certainly not acted
> > like an innocent man. So forgive me, after years of this kind of
> > nonsense from riders subsequently found out to be dopers, if I am
> > running out of patience with the kind of BS that has come from him and
> > the team. I would bet my house on Basso being guilty, and also that
> > this will come out sooner rather than later.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > But if you want to have your head in the sand, that is your right.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > Get Basso and the others all out now. If the sport is to have a
> > future, we need this kind of [censored] to end, once and for all. We have
> > had enough.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Also, if his lawyer said that he would be a fool to give his DNA, then
> his lawyer is an idiot. Or a liar. If someone is innocent, a good
> lawyer's job is to clear them as soon as possible. However, if they
> are guilty, the lawyer clearly can't do this. So he will do all he can
> to avoid giving implicating evidence.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Wise words: there is none so blind as those who will not see. The
> truth is right in front of you. But maybe you need CONI to tell you
> what was really going on? If so, just wait a while longer..- Hide quoted text -

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> - Show quoted text -

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yep, why don't you just contact the RCMP, let them know when you were
in the area of any of their unsolved crimes, and then submit a DNA
sample. I hear the Houston PD lab would be happy to help you too.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/05/01/auditorgeneral.html?ref=rss
Quoted:
Issues raised years ago
Fraser also uncovered "significant weaknesses" in how the laboratory
service defines, monitors and resolves quality issues related to its
work. Notably, the system was unable to identify problems with an
automated process introduced to test DNA.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Given these major shortcomings, overall the RCMP cannot be said to
perform satisfactorily in this area."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't think Wada is any more credible. Sounds like your the kind of
person who, when accused of jaywalking would confess to murder. I
assume that you've been fingerprinted, provided a precautionary DNA
sample, etc... to your government crime/anti-terror people because
they would never misuse them or make an error.
Bill C

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Benjamin Franklin
They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security,
deserve neither liberty or security

Quoted message said:

And what about the rights of innocent riders who have to race against
junked-up competitors? Or the rights of normal cyclists to have a
healthy, reputable sport instead of one which is falling apart? Give
me a break. I'm not talking about sending him to prison. But I am
talking about getting Basso to do whatever it takes to clear himself
(if he is, as you must feel against all indications, actually
innocent). Or to show he is guilty after all. But he won't do that,
will he?

Quoted message said:

Only liars have something to hide from the truth coming out.- Hide quoted text -

Quoted message said:

- Show quoted text -

I don't think Basso is innocent. I don't know. I also don't think that
the Wada kangaroo court proves anything conclusively either except in
the very few open/shut cases they get. If the system was open, fair,
under independent oversight, and had a reasonable appeals process then
I "might" suggest Basso submit his DNA for testing.
There is NOTHING in Wada and Pounds behavior that indicates athletes
are going to get a fair hearing. After all Pound has stated that they
are all guilty, they just haven't been caught yet.
Get rid of Pound, reform Wada, establish a riders union with some
teeth to provide some balance, prosecute the rich and powerful sports
like football/soccer too, endorse appeals to the civilian court system
then when there is some justice in the system come back to me about
how riders should prove they aren't guilty. It shouldn't be, that
anyone, is considered guilty until proven innocent and is forced to
prove the negative or face penalties. You'll never get me to sign off
on that system as "just".
Bill C

Well, in honesty, most cases /ARE/ open-and shut. The problem with
the WADA system is that it treats ALL cases as open-and-shut, even if
they aren't.

-dB http://trustbut.blogspot.com for Landis news, research, and
comment.

dbrower said:

Bill C said:

On May 2, 4:45 am, need more sun <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On May 2, 12:59 am, Bill C <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> On May 1, 5:10 pm, need more sun <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > On May 1, 10:04 pm, need more sun <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > On May 1, 6:03 pm, [email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > On Apr 30, 2:12 pm, need more sun <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > ...especially now he has broken his links with the team. If he was
> > > > > innocent and knew his DNA would show that, he wouldn't leave Discovery
> > > > > so quickly. Basso is, in my view, going to plead guilty in the hope
> > > > > CONI gives him less than two years. That means he will be back in time
> > > > > for the 2009 Giro and Tour.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > Discovery, meanwhile, must be regretting the way they p**ssed all over
> > > > > the ethical code. Nice one guys. If you end up with no sponsor for
> > > > > next year, many teams will be happy. I think the correct phrase is
> > > > > 'egg all over the face' now.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > Basso signed a contract with Discovery that he would present a DNA
> > > > test if asked. His lawyer told him that he'd be a fool to offer his
> > > > DNA and he has some rights on that subject in Italy.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > I realize that you believe that a man is guilty with the very
> > > > accusation by anyone including the guy he beat in his junior year but
> > > > perhaps the real world might intrude on your ability to synthesize
> > > > reality.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > Basso said at the time that he would present his DNA only if
> > > specifically asked in a judicial process..which looked extremely
> > > unlikely at the time. He previously declined to give Bjarne Riis his
> > > DNA - Riis said that had he done this, he could have stayed with the
> > > team. Basso has not acted like an innocent man (and neither has his
> > > liar/lawyer). All this humming and hawing and nonsense about DNA not
> > > being accurate, rather than just handing it over and being declared
> > > innocent (if that is indeed what he is).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > Imagine you are accused of something, but have a way to clear yourself
> > > and take pressure off you and your team. Surely you would do that as
> > > soon as possible? Not [censored] around with excuses and time-wasting
> > > tactics. Furthermore, if you are innocent, you don't give interviews
> > > where you simply say 'ask my lawyer' or 'my lawyer is dealing with
> > > that stuff now' when you are asked about your implication in a very
> > > serious doping investigation.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > You may not like to hear it, but Basso has most certainly not acted
> > > like an innocent man. So forgive me, after years of this kind of
> > > nonsense from riders subsequently found out to be dopers, if I am
> > > running out of patience with the kind of BS that has come from him and
> > > the team. I would bet my house on Basso being guilty, and also that
> > > this will come out sooner rather than later.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > But if you want to have your head in the sand, that is your right.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > Get Basso and the others all out now. If the sport is to have a
> > > future, we need this kind of [censored] to end, once and for all. We have
> > > had enough.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > Also, if his lawyer said that he would be a fool to give his DNA, then
> > his lawyer is an idiot. Or a liar. If someone is innocent, a good
> > lawyer's job is to clear them as soon as possible. However, if they
> > are guilty, the lawyer clearly can't do this. So he will do all he can
> > to avoid giving implicating evidence.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > Wise words: there is none so blind as those who will not see. The
> > truth is right in front of you. But maybe you need CONI to tell you
> > what was really going on? If so, just wait a while longer..- Hide quoted text -

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > - Show quoted text -

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Yep, why don't you just contact the RCMP, let them know when you were
> in the area of any of their unsolved crimes, and then submit a DNA
> sample. I hear the Houston PD lab would be happy to help you too.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/05/01/auditorgeneral.html?ref=rss
> Quoted:
> Issues raised years ago
> Fraser also uncovered "significant weaknesses" in how the laboratory
> service defines, monitors and resolves quality issues related to its
> work. Notably, the system was unable to identify problems with an
> automated process introduced to test DNA.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> "Given these major shortcomings, overall the RCMP cannot be said to
> perform satisfactorily in this area."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I don't think Wada is any more credible. Sounds like your the kind of
> person who, when accused of jaywalking would confess to murder. I
> assume that you've been fingerprinted, provided a precautionary DNA
> sample, etc... to your government crime/anti-terror people because
> they would never misuse them or make an error.
> Bill C

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Benjamin Franklin
> They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security,
> deserve neither liberty or security

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And what about the rights of innocent riders who have to race against
junked-up competitors? Or the rights of normal cyclists to have a
healthy, reputable sport instead of one which is falling apart? Give
me a break. I'm not talking about sending him to prison. But I am
talking about getting Basso to do whatever it takes to clear himself
(if he is, as you must feel against all indications, actually
innocent). Or to show he is guilty after all. But he won't do that,
will he?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Only liars have something to hide from the truth coming out.- Hide quoted text -

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

- Show quoted text -

Quoted message said:

I don't think Basso is innocent. I don't know. I also don't think that
the Wada kangaroo court proves anything conclusively either except in
the very few open/shut cases they get. If the system was open, fair,
under independent oversight, and had a reasonable appeals process then
I "might" suggest Basso submit his DNA for testing.
There is NOTHING in Wada and Pounds behavior that indicates athletes
are going to get a fair hearing. After all Pound has stated that they
are all guilty, they just haven't been caught yet.
Get rid of Pound, reform Wada, establish a riders union with some
teeth to provide some balance, prosecute the rich and powerful sports
like football/soccer too, endorse appeals to the civilian court system
then when there is some justice in the system come back to me about
how riders should prove they aren't guilty. It shouldn't be, that
anyone, is considered guilty until proven innocent and is forced to
prove the negative or face penalties. You'll never get me to sign off
on that system as "just".
Bill C

Well, in honesty, most cases /ARE/ open-and shut. The problem with
the WADA system is that it treats ALL cases as open-and-shut, even if
they aren't.

-dB http://trustbut.blogspot.comfor Landis news, research, and
comment.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That's your opinion. That isn't mine, at least not until they deal
with the questions of their bias, procedural failures, and credibility
issues.
Daryl Gates said they were all open/shut cases too, and as far as I
can tell Gates was a better cop than Pound.
Bill C

need more sun said:

so quickly. Basso is, in my view, going to plead guilty in the hope
CONI gives him less than two years. That means he will be back in time

Here you go...

Quoted message said:

need more sun said:

...especially now he has broken his links with the team. If he was
innocent and knew his DNA would show that, he wouldn't leave Discovery
so quickly. Basso is, in my view, going to plead guilty in the hope
CONI gives him less than two years. That means he will be back in time
for the 2009 Giro and Tour.

Quoted message said:

Discovery, meanwhile, must be regretting the way they p**ssed all over
the ethical code. Nice one guys. If you end up with no sponsor for
next year, many teams will be happy. I think the correct phrase is
'egg all over the face' now.

Basso signed a contract with Discovery that he would present a DNA
test if asked. His lawyer told him that he'd be a fool to offer his
DNA and he has some rights on that subject in Italy.

I realize that you believe that a man is guilty with the very
accusation by anyone including the guy he beat in his junior year but
perhaps the real world might intrude on your ability to synthesize
reality.

I suggest you re-read your post. Discovery are idiots and knew well
the score. Of course, we will probably get some horseshit response
from Lord Bruyneel, saying that he is horrified, he never knew etc etc
etc. He knew damn well, but thought the truth would never come out.
Well, Johan, that's what your arrogance gets you. If there is any
justice, you will be out of a job.

And Basso's lawyer is a moron.

Curtis L. Russell said:

On 7 May 2007 08:49:52 -0700, need more sun <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Of course, we will probably get some horseshit response
from Lord Bruyneel, saying that he is horrified, he never knew etc etc
etc. He knew damn well, but thought the truth would never come out.
Well, Johan, that's what your arrogance gets you. If there is any
justice, you will be out of a job.

Why would he need to do all that? All he has to say is that they knew
the risks going in, were willing to take a chance, and it didn't work
out. Big deal. And what justice has to do with it, I don't know. Keep
telling yourself - its only a sport. Darfur is where we should worry
about justice, Iraq, a few spots in Indonesia and other places where
real life might intrude into your sense of outrage. Bicycle racing is
a sport that has little to do with real life, day to day.

I fired someone today - gavehim every chance in the world, and he
crossed the line too many times. Less an issue of justice and more an
issue of known consequences. You going to fire me for giving him a
chance or him earlier because its never too early to cut a suspect
loose?

Basso was a big boy, he evidently took drugs and now he'll be
punished. Same as when you get caught speeding - you've been doing it
your entire life, so own up and take the ticket like an adult. Less an
issue of justice and more an issue of probability.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Hi Curtis, I see your point but I think this is different here. If you
had taken on someone you knew had done something wrong but if you then
denied that fact to to your superiors, to the media, to others bound
by the same rules (ie the other pro teams, when talking about
Discovery), then I believe someone would be justified in firing you.

If I believed for a moment that Bruyneel doesn't know what is going on
among the top guys in pro cycling, or didn't know exactly what Fuentes
was up to (don't forget, Johan lives in Madrid) then your argument
would make sense. But I would bet any amout of money that Bruyneel
knew the full score, but thought that OP would never lead to riders
being actually busted.

Discovery took on someone who was tainted, knew what they were doing,
said they ran all sorts of checks (again, Johan didn't know what was
going on in the same city he lives in???) and have now been caught
with their pants around their ankles. Good riddance.