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A Doctors Understanding...

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
17 May 2004
Last activity
17 May 2004
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Dave Wickware
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  1. If you read this article carefully it seems that he says
    that we must never let common sense or thousands of years of
    history and tradition influence our thinking. This presents
    the very reason that more and more people regard the medical
    establishment as narrow minded and not trustworthy.

    by Steven Novella, MD

    The Connecticut Skeptic Vol.1 Issue 1 (Winter '96)

    There is a growing phenomenon in this country which is
    very diverse and yet can be grouped collectively under
    a single name: alternative medicine. What this term
    basically represents is any health care which is not
    part of the mainstream medical establishment, and it
    includes all such therapies from chiropractic to
    crystal healing. Despite the tremendous disparity in
    philosophy, organization, practice, and origins of the
    myriad types of alternative medicine , the growing
    acceptance and use of these therapies is part of a
    single cultural phenomenon. It is also an extremely
    dangerous and costly one.

    First let me address what the critical difference
    between mainstream medicine and alternative medicine
    truely is, and why the latter is cause for concern. In
    short, mainstream medicine is a scientific endeavor, and
    alternative medicine is not.

    Medical practice was not always steeped in the
    traditions of science. Two centuries ago the discipline
    of medicine was based on dogma and authority, research
    was sporadic and uncoordinated and was not generally
    accepted as the way to improve the practice of
    medicine. Slowly, however, a few gifted scientists
    began to show how research and experimentation, in the
    modern sense of the terms, can yield real knowledge
    which can be used to treat and cure patients. One by
    one, diseases began to fall under the understanding and
    control of physicians, and the results were undeniable.

    Today, medical research is a multi-billion dollar
    industry. Every physician is exposed to basic science
    and clinical research to some degree during their
    training and the links between the science of medicine
    and the practice of medicine are strong. Physicians in
    training learn early on that authority means little,
    if one does not have the facts to back up what one is
    saying. It is common for medical students, the lowest
    members of the academic medicine hierarchy, to
    politely ask their attendings for the article which
    demonstrates their assertion. I have never met an
    attending to be offended by or to refuse such a
    request, because such behavior would expose them as
    dogmatic and not scientific, destroying their
    reputation in academic circles.

    Physicians also learn through clinical experience to
    be highly skeptical of just such experience. That is,
    simply because a treatment seems to be effective by
    casual observation is not enough to conclude that it
    is. Time and time again, with stunning regularity, our
    own naive assumptions and observations are invalidated
    by careful scientific research. We learn to question
    everything we think we know, to base our clinical
    practice on solid research, and not to be swayed by
    so-called anecdotal experience. One cannot be a
    competent physician today without subscribing to an
    array of medical journals in order to keep up with the
    latest research.

    Why is anecdotal experience so fallible? In part it is
    because human biology is extremely complex and variable.
    Physicians are fond of saying that no two patients are
    exactly alike, and therefore the results of our
    interventions are never completely predictable. Also, we
    rely heavily on the patient's subjective experience of
    their own disease and symptoms. I can only know how much
    pain a patient is experiencing by what they tell me;
    there is no objective measure. Patient's expectations,
    the so-called placebo effect, are very powerful and
    greatly affects their beliefs about whether or not they
    are getting better or worse. Physician expectation is
    also a factor, for if we believe a patient should be
    getting better, our assessment of them may be biased in
    that direction.

    Another feature of modern medicine that is important to
    understanding the alternative medicine phenomenon is
    that it is greatly imperfect. Medical knowledge is vast,
    but medical ignorance is even more vast. Many illnesses
    still have no cure or only imperfect cures. Physicians
    are often reduced to managing symptoms, which is
    important and improves a patient's quality of life, but
    does not offer hope of altering the disease course
    itself. Many diseases are not understood or only poorly
    understood, and even proper diagnosis is often a
    challenge. Another reality medical students learn early
    in their training is the limitations of their own
    knowledge and power.

    Medical practice today is also highly technological.
    This is one of its strengths, but it is also a
    potential weakness. Patients often perceive their
    experience with mainstream medicine as being impersonal
    and uncaring. They are often put through a scary
    battery of tests and examinations which they have
    little chance of understanding. It is easy for patients
    to become overwhelmed by the complexity of the delivery
    of modern medicine and the technology of its practice,
    all at a time when they are especially vulnerable
    because they are sick.

    Enter alternative medicine. It is easy to understand why
    people would be drawn to the allure of alternative medicine.
    Those therapies that are most successful are often very good
    at the personal "warm and fuzzy" aspect of heath care. They
    also make very straightforward claims with regard to
    diagnosis and treatment. What patient does not want to hear
    "this is what your problem is, and here is the cure?" There
    is rarely any gray zone or uncertainty. Also, the
    interventions tend to be very hands-on and often even
    pleasurable, such as massage therapy or therapeutic touch,
    very different from the needles, probes, and x-rays of
    mainstream medicine.

    What is the problem, then? It sounds like mainstream
    medicine can learn a great deal from alternative
    medicine, rather than the other way around. The
    problem is that many, if not all, forms of alternative
    medicine make claims which are not based on firm
    scientific research. Some, such as crystal healing,
    healing touch, and Rei-so (spiritual diagnosis), are
    based on the concept that physical health depends upon
    spiritual health or having the proper balance and flow
    of life energies.

    Others, such as aromatherapy, homeopathy, and herbalism,
    cite physiologic mechanisms for their actions. Still
    others, such as the Laetrile society, claim that the
    treatment they have to offer is the product of
    scientific research but that a corrupt medical
    organization is conspiring to keep this genuine therapy
    from patients.

    Often, proponents of any particular form of
    alternative medicine can recite long and complex
    explanations for the basis of their therapy. They can
    often claim that the knowledge they use is thousands
    of years old, or is widely used in other cultures but
    neglected in western European culture. They all will
    make bold statements about the power of their therapy
    and even be able to provide stunning testimonials to
    support their claims. What none of them can produce,
    however, is solid, reproducible scientific research to
    back up their claims.

    It is this fact alone which distinguishes alternative
    from mainstream medicine. If any therapy, no matter how
    unorthodox, were grounded in research, and could be
    repeatedly shown to be safe and effective, then it
    eventually would be incorporated into mainstream
    medicine. Novelty will always meet with initial
    resistance, but the history of medicine, and indeed
    science in general, has repeatedly shown that the facts
    in the end reign supreme.

    Defenders and practitioners of alternative medicine
    claim that their therapies are natural and holistic,
    whereas mainstream medicine is artificial, invasive, and
    treats patients as diseases. They will often say that
    physicians are as dogmatic as their predecessors of
    previous centuries and that their attacks against
    alternative medicine are based solely on their desire to
    protect their own monopoly on health care. These verbal
    attacks by adherents of alternative medicine against
    their perceived enemies are a simple distraction from
    the real question - why should a skeptical individual
    believe that there is any credibility to the diagnostic
    and therapeutic claims of a particular form of
    alternative medicine? In short, medical scientists state
    that a particular therapy has no scientific basis, and
    the practitioners of that therapy reply, not with
    evidence or research, but with cries of dogma and
    protectionism.

    On closer examination, the criticisms of mainstream
    medicine listed above are largely empty. The terms
    "natural" and "holistic" have been so broadly applied as
    to become virtually meaningless. The trend in medical
    education towards a more complete view of the patient
    (the so-called biopsychosocial model) is largely
    ignored. Making comparisons between modern medicine and
    the beliefs of previous centuries serves only to reveal
    extreme ignorance about the fundamental revolution in
    science and medicine that has occurred in our society.
    And claiming that physicians speak out against
    alternative medicine only to protect their monopoly
    belies a complete misunderstanding of the organization
    of academic medicine as distinct from private practice.
    In the end the attacks of alternative medicine
    practitioners are revealed for what they truly are,
    preemptive strikes against the one segment of society
    that can reveal the emptiness of their claims - the
    medical community.

    This, of course, is not to suggest that mainstream
    medicine is beyond criticism; it is not. Nor am I
    implying that all forms of alternative medicine are
    without value, but they lack a mechanism of
    systematically testing their value.

    The FDA was established to protect the public from so-
    called snake oil salesman, slick con-artists who sold
    useless or even harmful concoctions with a long list of
    unsubstantiated health claims. Before a physician can
    prescribe a drug to a patient, that drug must be proven,
    through many years of stringent research, to be safe and
    effective for specific indications. The medical
    community, through licensure, hospital privileges,
    referrals, and peer review regulates the activities of
    all physicians so that a certain standard of care is
    maintained. Alternative medicine operates completely
    outside of this system. They can make claims without the
    burden of scientific proof and prescribe therapies
    without any precautions for their safety.

  2. "Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    If you read this article carefully it seems that he says
    that we must


    never

    Quoted message said:

    let common sense or thousands of years of history and
    tradition influence our thinking.

    No, it is saying that we should never base critical medical
    treatments on that alone. It is saying that the advancement
    of medical science demands more.

    Peter Moran

  3. Quoted message said:

    "Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    If you read this article carefully it seems that he says
    that we must


    never

    Quoted message said:

    let common sense or thousands of years of history and
    tradition influence our thinking. This presents the very
    reason that more and more people regard the medical
    establishment as narrow minded and not trustworthy.

    by Steven Novella, MD

    The Connecticut Skeptic Vol.1 Issue 1 (Winter '96)

    There is a growing phenomenon in this country which is
    very diverse and yet can be grouped collectively under a
    single name: alternative medicine. What this term
    basically represents is any health care which is not part


    of

    Quoted message said:

    the mainstream medical establishment, and it includes all
    such therapies from chiropractic to crystal healing.
    Despite the tremendous disparity in philosophy,
    organization, practice, and origins of the myriad types of
    alternative medicine , the growing acceptance and use of
    these therapies


    is

    Quoted message said:

    part of a single cultural phenomenon. It is also an
    extremely dangerous and costly one. First let me address
    what the critical difference between mainstream medicine
    and alternative medicine truely is, and why the latter
    is cause


    for

    Quoted message said:

    concern. In short, mainstream medicine is a scientific
    endeavor, and alternative medicine is not.

    Mainstream medicine is relatively new, kooks have been using
    anecdotes for hundreds of years to effect. (Chinese medicine
    is an example of that)

    Quoted message said:

    In short, mainstream medicine is a scientific endeavor,
    and alternative


    medicine is not.

    Who cares, if they work they work? People knew how to 'cure'
    scurvy hundreds of years before science jumped in a said "We
    have the cure for scurvy" Indians had the solution to the
    white man disease long before white man turned his
    microscope on it. It took hundreds of years and cost many
    thousands of lives before science woke up and finally gave
    in. Has science learned nothing from this lesson?

    Quoted message said:

    Medical practice was not always steeped in the traditions
    of science. Two centuries ago the discipline of medicine
    was based on dogma and authority, research was sporadic
    and uncoordinated and was not generally accepted as the
    way to improve the practice of medicine.

    Isn't this the way it is today - cholesterol lowering drugs
    spring to mind ?

    You need funding to do research and if no one will fund you
    that makes it harder to do research, or you take what
    research is offered in the direction they want to go.

    Quoted message said:

    The FDA was established to protect the public from so-
    called snake oil salesman, slick con-artists who sold
    useless or even harmful concoctions with a long list of
    unsubstantiated health claims.

    ..and today the very FDA is a tool of abuse to stifle
    competition.

    Quoted message said:

    Before a physician can prescribe a drug to a patient, that
    drug must be


    proven, through many years

    Quoted message said:

    of stringent research, to be safe and effective for
    specific indications.

    Rubbish!

    Quoted message said:

    The medical community, through licensure, hospital
    privileges, referrals, and peer review regulates the
    activities of all physicians so that a


    certain

    Quoted message said:

    standard of care is maintained. Alternative medicine
    operates completely outside of this system. They can
    make claims without the burden of scientific proof
    and prescribe therapies without any precautions for
    their safety.

    People as a whole don't understand science, they don't have
    the skills or the time and incentive to understand, so they
    'buy' what these scientists and doctors are feeding them -
    they rely on trust. In essence this is just the same as what
    they do with alternative health treatments, but a more
    potential for unknowns with alternatives. The scientists
    also rely on trust from their peers and their studies, and
    the cycle goes on. (One scientist posts a reference to
    another paper and that paper is referenced by another paper
    and so on, and the [censored] floats) What you have is a
    system in science that is potentially more 'accurate' but
    you certainly don't have the 'truth' which is the goal of
    science. .

    The sun shins out of this guys [censored], unfortunately the real
    world has little sunshine, I have a square spanner for a
    round peg if he wants it. Anth

  4. In article
    <[email hidden]
    om.au>,

    Peter Moran said:

    "Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    If you read this article carefully it seems that he says
    that we must


    never

    Quoted message said:

    let common sense or thousands of years of history and
    tradition influence our thinking.

    No, it is saying that we should never base critical
    medical treatments on that alone. It is saying that the
    advancement of medical science demands more.

    BINGO!

    Anecdotal evidence is considered the weakest form of
    evidence in science, but it is not ignored. When enough of
    it exists, it is used as a basis for more rigorous studies.

    --
    Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
    |
    |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do
    |you inconvenience me with questions?"

  5. Advancement in medical science demands anti-trust/monopoly
    organisations in place. Any pharma company can do a trial,
    sodomise the statistics, stick some candles on it and
    pronounce "Happy Birthday" make a few billion off it. Then
    when people find out that they have been hoodwinked, open up
    a lawsuit resulting in pharma losing some pocket change.
    Pharma still wins - they make a profit. It's a great
    business model, it's win win win! Anth

    "Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:40a688c5$0$20559$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
    02.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...

    Quoted message said:


    "Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    If you read this article carefully it seems that he says
    that we must


    never

    Quoted message said:

    let common sense or thousands of years of history and
    tradition


    influence

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    our thinking.

    No, it is saying that we should never base critical
    medical treatments on that alone. It is saying that the
    advancement of medical science demands more.

    Peter Moran

  6. Quoted message said:

    Subject: Re: A Doctors Understanding... From: "Peter Moran"
    [email hidden] Date: 5/15/2004 1:16 PM Pacific Standard
    Time Message-id: <40a688c5$0$20559$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
    02.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>

    "Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    If you read this article carefully it seems that he says
    that we must


    never

    Quoted message said:

    let common sense or thousands of years of history and
    tradition influence our thinking.

    No, it is saying that we should never base critical medical
    treatments on that alone. It is saying that the advancement
    of medical science demands more.

    Peter Moran

    No, it is saying doctors like you, lie.

    Jan

  7. I don't think anyone pays them, they are just on the 'other
    side of the fence.' Anth

    "DRCEEPHD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:20040515190641.23183.00001010@mb-
    m24.aol.com...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Subject: Re: A Doctors Understanding... From: "Anth"
    [email hidden] Date:
    5/15/04 6:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: <GrGdnXX8lvXfBzvdRVn-
    [email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    Any pharma company can do a trial, sodomise the
    statistics, stick some candles on it and pronounce "Happy
    Birthday" make a few billion off it.


    Then

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    when people find out that they have been hoodwinked, open
    up a lawsuit resulting in pharma losing some pocket
    change. Pharma still wins - they


    make

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    a profit. It's a great business model, it's win win
    win! Anth

    "Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    news:40a688c5$0$20559$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
    02.brisbane.pipenetwork


    s.com.au...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    "Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    message
    "]news:[email hidden]...
    > If you read this article carefully it seems that he
    > says that we must
    never
    > let common sense or thousands of years of history and
    > tradition


    influence

    Quoted message said:

    > our thinking.

    No, it is saying that we should never base critical
    medical treatments


    on

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    that alone. It is saying that the advancement of
    medical science


    demands

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    more.

    Peter Moran

    Sad but true.

    But then who pays the shills in this group who continue to
    bow and pray to


    the

    Quoted message said:

    pharma group while using every dispicable trick in the
    propaganda book to destroy any constructive discussion of
    alternative medicine?

    DrC PhD

  8. Jan the Accuser said:

    No, it is saying doctors like you, lie.

    Jan

    Prove it. You accuse people all the time of lying just
    because they disagree with you, but you NEVER back up your
    accusations with proof.

    Do you need help seeing what PROOF looks like, Jan?

    Here is an example:

    To see Jan's ORIGINAL POSTING, go here:w.google.com/groups?selm=20040310000815.25804.00001173%40mb-
    m01.aol.com

    Jan said:
    Quoted message said:

    From: Mark Thorson [email hidden]

    Instead of responding to what you say, Jan is trying to
    discredit you by making insinuations about who you are or
    what your motives may be.

    Soon, she may accuse you of being on the payroll of the
    pharmaceutical companies, etc. That's the way Jan works.

    That would be ANOTHER LIE from Mark Thorson. I have
    NEVER accused


    anyone of

    Quoted message said:

    any such thing.

    So do prove your claim Mark!!!!!

    You can't YOU JUST LIED AGAIN!!!!!!!

    ----- example quotes of Jan accusing people of being paid
    shills -----

    Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:w.google.com/groups?selm=20030415173745.18794.00000646%40mb-
    fn.aol.com

    Any time alt. health is mentioned the personal trashing
    starts. Mostly comes from paid shill Mark Probert.

    Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:w.google.com/groups?selm=20030412210802.08778.00000680%40mb-
    fw.aol.com

    Internet bully Mark Probert who is a paid shill and lives
    off his wife.

    Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:w.google.com/groups?selm=20030410170838.14245.00000347%40mb-
    ct.aol.com

    As for Mark, he is a paid shill and lives off his wife.

    Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:w.google.com/groups?selm=20030325123827.25124.00000246%40mb-
    mn.aol.com

    As long as Mark is here, the paid shill will call names
    when in fact he is the one who is a bigot. Speaking of his
    own people.

  9. I don't think anyone pays them, they are just on the 'other
    side of the fence.' Anth

    "DRCEEPHD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:20040515190641.23183.00001010@mb-
    m24.aol.com...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Subject: Re: A Doctors Understanding... From: "Anth"
    [email hidden] Date:
    5/15/04 6:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: <GrGdnXX8lvXfBzvdRVn-
    [email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    Any pharma company can do a trial, sodomise the
    statistics, stick some candles on it and pronounce "Happy
    Birthday" make a few billion off it.


    Then

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    when people find out that they have been hoodwinked, open
    up a lawsuit resulting in pharma losing some pocket
    change. Pharma still wins - they


    make

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    a profit. It's a great business model, it's win win
    win! Anth

    "Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    news:40a688c5$0$20559$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
    02.brisbane.pipenetwork


    s.com.au...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    "Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    message
    "]news:[email hidden]...
    > If you read this article carefully it seems that he
    > says that we must
    never
    > let common sense or thousands of years of history and
    > tradition


    influence

    Quoted message said:

    > our thinking.

    No, it is saying that we should never base critical
    medical treatments


    on

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    that alone. It is saying that the advancement of
    medical science


    demands

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    more.

    Peter Moran

    Sad but true.

    But then who pays the shills in this group who continue to
    bow and pray to


    the

    Quoted message said:

    pharma group while using every dispicable trick in the
    propaganda book to destroy any constructive discussion of
    alternative medicine?

    DrC PhD

  10. Jan the Accuser said:

    No, it is saying doctors like you, lie.

    Jan

    Prove it. You accuse people all the time of lying just
    because they disagree with you, but you NEVER back up your
    accusations with proof.

    Do you need help seeing what PROOF looks like, Jan?

    Here is an example:

    To see Jan's ORIGINAL POSTING, go here:w.google.com/groups?selm=20040310000815.25804.00001173%40mb-
    m01.aol.com

    Jan said:
    Quoted message said:

    From: Mark Thorson [email hidden]

    Instead of responding to what you say, Jan is trying to
    discredit you by making insinuations about who you are or
    what your motives may be.

    Soon, she may accuse you of being on the payroll of the
    pharmaceutical companies, etc. That's the way Jan works.

    That would be ANOTHER LIE from Mark Thorson. I have
    NEVER accused


    anyone of

    Quoted message said:

    any such thing.

    So do prove your claim Mark!!!!!

    You can't YOU JUST LIED AGAIN!!!!!!!

    ----- example quotes of Jan accusing people of being paid
    shills -----

    Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:w.google.com/groups?selm=20030415173745.18794.00000646%40mb-
    fn.aol.com

    Any time alt. health is mentioned the personal trashing
    starts. Mostly comes from paid shill Mark Probert.

    Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:w.google.com/groups?selm=20030412210802.08778.00000680%40mb-
    fw.aol.com

    Internet bully Mark Probert who is a paid shill and lives
    off his wife.

    Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:w.google.com/groups?selm=20030410170838.14245.00000347%40mb-
    ct.aol.com

    As for Mark, he is a paid shill and lives off his wife.

    Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:w.google.com/groups?selm=20030325123827.25124.00000246%40mb-
    mn.aol.com

    As long as Mark is here, the paid shill will call names
    when in fact he is the one who is a bigot. Speaking of his
    own people.

  11. In article <[email hidden]>,

    (Jan) said:
    Quoted message said:

    Subject: Re: A Doctors Understanding... From: "Peter
    Moran" [email hidden] Date: 5/15/2004 1:16 PM Pacific
    Standard Time Message-id: <40a688c5$0$20559$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
    02.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au

    Quoted message said:

    "Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    If you read this article carefully it seems that he
    says that we must


    never

    Quoted message said:

    let common sense or thousands of years of history and
    tradition influence our thinking.

    No, it is saying that we should never base critical
    medical treatments on that alone. It is saying that the
    advancement of medical science demands more.

    Peter Moran

    No, it is saying doctors like you, lie.

    Really? Please tell us exactly which lies Peter or I have
    told and prove they were lies.

    --
    Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
    |
    |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do
    |you inconvenience me with questions?"

  12. In article <[email hidden]>,

    (Jan) said:
    Quoted message said:

    Subject: Re: A Doctors Understanding... From: "Peter
    Moran" [email hidden] Date: 5/15/2004 1:16 PM Pacific
    Standard Time Message-id: <40a688c5$0$20559$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
    02.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au

    Quoted message said:

    "Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    If you read this article carefully it seems that he
    says that we must


    never

    Quoted message said:

    let common sense or thousands of years of history and
    tradition influence our thinking.

    No, it is saying that we should never base critical
    medical treatments on that alone. It is saying that the
    advancement of medical science demands more.

    Peter Moran

    No, it is saying doctors like you, lie.

    Really? Please tell us exactly which lies Peter or I have
    told and prove they were lies.

    --
    Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
    |
    |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do
    |you inconvenience me with questions?"

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