A challenge to Tacx or savy programmers.

Have you considered actually going out and racing?😄

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Duckwah
Have you considered actually going out and racing?😄

I do (but not very well). 🙁

I was interested in a program that would add something to winter training. The I-Magic trainer is a great machine, but the software really sucks. The computer riders are just "replays" of previous rides. There is no A.I. whatsoever. Good if you are only interested in day-to-day comparisons, but bad if your looking for "competition" during the winter. I would ride much harder if I thought I was chasing a break, than I do just watching "video hills" roll by.

The Cycling Manager 3 program is excellent for competition, but clicking the mouse to start a break is not the same and jumping out of the saddle.

So, why not merge the two?

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by thesciguy
The I-Magic trainer is a great machine, but the software really sucks. The computer riders are just "replays" of previous rides. There is no A.I. whatsoever. Good if you are only interested in day-to-day comparisons, but bad if your looking for "competition" during the winter.

But the computer riders can be replays of other riders in a league. For example, I'm just cooling down after racing on the i-magic against someone who posted a time in round 7 of the i-magic league. I thought I'd gone pretty fast a few days ago, but then he beat me by 20 seconds. So guess what - yes I've just gone faster. Now this provides a real training effect, competition and fun. Come and join us in the league!

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Shibumi
But the computer riders can be replays of other riders in a league. For example, I'm just cooling down after racing on the i-magic against someone who posted a time in round 7 of the i-magic league. I thought I'd gone pretty fast a few days ago, but then he beat me by 20 seconds. So guess what - yes I've just gone faster. Now this provides a real training effect, competition and fun. Come and join us in the league!

I agree that riding against someone elses pre-recorded ride offers some level of "competition". But that competition is identical to time trialing (with all the advantages and disadvantages of going first or last). The is no computer-rider response to your actions (attack, counter attack, sprint, draft etc...)

The fastest (capable) rider is not always the one who finishes first in a mass start race. There is an infinite level of interaction among the other riders, your teammates and the terrain that makes HOW you ride as important as how FAST you ride.

Cycling Manager already has the interaction and strategy A.I. as part of their program, it just needs the option of controlling the program with a rider on a bike, not just the mouse and keyboard.

I think Tacx is missing an opportunity to clearly distinguish themselves from the other VR trainers available and from software such as Netathalon (all of which do the same thing).

The creators of Cycling Manager have discussed the idea mentioned above but decided not to explore it now. I believe that from their point of view, there are too few users of I-magic to make the effort profitable.

But there are many users (number anyone?) of NON-VR trainers that are waiting for a reason to upgrade to a VR trainer and are currently ambivalent towards what Tacx and others are offering.

It just seems like a “no brainer” to me.

By the way, I think the I-magic league is great. I download the rides and riders all the time.

Sorry, but this all sounds a bit too geeky. Just go out and race against your mates, ride the chain gang off-season. Really the off-season is for some foundation training, away from constant racing, training in a more optimal, gradual and productive manner than just flogging yourself each day in a virtual race. If you want a virtual race, NetAthlon offers this with real-life people to race against rather than computer AI.

Who plays Cycling Manager anyway? Not many of us. How many of those playing it would actually like to physically do the effort of racing themselves? Again, not a lot, 1 person by the looks of it!??

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by thesciguy
I agree that riding against someone elses pre-recorded ride offers some level of "competition". But that competition is identical to time trialing (with all the advantages and disadvantages of going first or last). The is no computer-rider response to your actions (attack, counter attack, sprint, draft etc...)

Agreed - I only compete in time trials so this is ideal for me. I accept the limitations for road racers.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by TTer
Sorry, but this all sounds a bit too geeky. Just go out and race against your mates, ride the chain gang off-season. Really the off-season is for some foundation training, away from constant racing, training in a more optimal, gradual and productive manner than just flogging yourself each day in a virtual race. If you want a virtual race, NetAthlon offers this with real-life people to race against rather than computer AI.

Who plays Cycling Manager anyway? Not many of us. How many of those playing it would actually like to physically do the effort of racing themselves? Again, not a lot, 1 person by the looks of it!??

Of course it’s geeky! But since when have cyclists been immune to geekiness? Remember, bike computers were originally viewed as an unnecessary aid for use by those that were too lazy to calculate their own speed (using cadence and gear ratio). The same is true for heart rate monitors and two-way communication. What about exotic frame materials, cableless derailleurs, clipless pedals, aerobars and helmets? Every single one of these was slow to gain acceptance. I can’t think of a single aspect of pro or recreational cycling that has not been influenced by geeks. (Of course the stuff of geeks turns into technical innovations once they are accepted.)

Winter training is not immune either. Resistance units have gone from fans, to water, to magnets to VR interactivity. I’m not sure where the line was crossed, but I don’t think riding against a computer rider that responds to my attacks is any more “geeky” than riding over computer generated hills, watching virtual trees roll by and listen to virtual birds sing.

You’re right. Winter training should be more controlled and monitored and purposeful. But in the Northeast, that can mean 6-7 months of indoor riding. Anything to add variation is helpful.

Tacx could simply improve their software and make computer riders that are more “dynamic”. But the engine already exists in Cycling Manager and is very realistic. Why not tap into it?

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by TTer
Sorry, but this all sounds a bit too geeky. Just go out and race against your mates, ride the chain gang off-season. Really the off-season is for some foundation training, away from constant racing, training in a more optimal, gradual and productive manner than just flogging yourself each day in a virtual race.

Geeky? I've limited my racing on the road for safety reasons. I was in a race last year where someone died, another where my minuteman got hit from behind by a hit and run driver, I could go on. I've got my second road race in 10 months tomorrow, but in between I've raced other (real) riders across the web on about 50 occasions. If you asked my wife, she'd say I was sensible, not geeky!

As for this foundation riding over the winter, I do that on the turbo as well! Beats getting wet.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by TTer

Who plays Cycling Manager anyway? Not many of us. How many of those playing it would actually like to physically do the effort of racing themselves? Again, not a lot, 1 person by the looks of it!??

Sorry to restate this, but I don't think it was clear in my previous reply...

This issue is not who among the current trainer users also play Cycling Manager. Playing the game is not a prerequisite to buying some intergrated system. The issue is whether or not improving the i-magic software by adding artificial intellegence to the comp riders and the dyamics of a road race would attract MORE users to the technology of VR trainers.

The data that would be needed (which neither of us have) is:
- how many Cycling Manager users are there?
- How many of them would use a bike interface?
- How many cyclists give up winter training all together because of various reasons
- How many of those have researched VR trainers and decided against the purchase and why (cost, technology)
- How many are waiting for better software (like rider A.I.)
- How many current users (VR and other trainers) would upgrade?
- Would pro trainers use and endorse such a product?
and so on....

Anyone care to do some market research?

Cycling software.. hmm, I may try suggesting a cheat mode to my colleauges..

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by ebola
Cycling software.. hmm, I may try suggesting a cheat mode to my colleauges..

There is already cheating going on with the I-magic trainer and the I-magic league.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by thesciguy
There is already cheating going on with the...I-magic league.

Really? I know some people tried a while back, but I'm not aware of any going on at the moment. What do you think people are doing? People have tried amending the slope setting, using flying starts, or taking breaks, but all of this is fairly visible and was stopped.

I'm fairly confident that everyone who finished higher than me in the league (I finished in the Top 10) did so because they were better than me. Or do you know differently?

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Shibumi
Really? I know some people tried a while back, but I'm not aware of any going on at the moment. What do you think people are doing? People have tried amending the slope setting, using flying starts, or taking breaks, but all of this is fairly visible and was stopped.

I'm fairly confident that everyone who finished higher than me in the league (I finished in the Top 10) did so because they were better than me. Or do you know differently?

You may be right. I don't know the current situation in the I-magic league. I was referring to posts on the website during the months of March and April, when I was most active in downloading courses. If that has been stopped, great.

No offense intended.