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650B MTB update -

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Cycling Equipment
Published
26 July 2007
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bfd
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  1. Kirk Pacenti must have alot of pull!

    http://www.bicyclenewswire.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.showrelease&cid=132&id=547

    Pacenti Cycle Design Leading the 650B Wheel Revolution
    07.25.07
    Chattanooga, Tennessee

    Bike designer Kirk Pacenti is into big wheels. He was riding 700C and 700D
    wheels in the early 1990s, has been a long-time proponent of 29ers, and
    probably even rode one of those plastic "Big Wheel" tricycles as a kid. But
    now he has seen the MTB future and the wheel size is 650B.

    The advantages?

    a.. With 650B wheels (which measure 27.5" in diameter, half-way between
    26" and 29" wheels), full-suspension bikes can be produced with 4" to 6"
    inches of travel and throughout a wide range of frame sizes without
    abandoning proven 26" wheel frame geometry.

    b.. 650B wheel bikes can be designed for a wide variety of uses from XC
    racing to 4X and DH racing.

    c.. 650B wheel bikes can accommodate riders 5' 3" to 6' 4" tall or more.

    d.. 650B wheels offer great obstacle roll-over capabilities for a smoother
    ride.

    e.. Consumers are already demanding 650B bikes and bike designers are
    producing the bikes.

    "What I believe 650B wheeled mountain bikes will allow builders to do, is to
    utilize proven 26 inch wheeled geometries, coupled with the largest wheel
    possible in a bike with little or no geometry compromises," says Pacenti,
    president of Pacenti Cycle Design, which supplies product and support to
    frame builders. "As 140mm travel bikes become the norm (even for XC bikes)
    the 650B wheel size is going to make even more sense."

    Granted, the biggest obstacle to any new wheel size is tires, but Pacenti
    has already covered that rocky ground. A Pacenti-designed and branded
    Panaracer-made 650B tire - the Neo-Moto - is currently in production and
    will be available by mid-September. In addition, White Brothers is producing
    suspension forks for the new wheel size, and Velocity USA, which has built
    650B rims for the bicycle touring market for years, is already in production
    of their new "Blunt" all-mountain MTB rim.

    Because the 650B wheel size is compatible with many 26" wheel components
    numerous parts are already available. For instance, Maverick forks can be
    easily optimized for 650B wheels with a travel reduction kit, and some
    current 26" and all current 29" disk specific suspension forks will work
    with the 650B wheel size.

    But what's a wheel and parts without a frame. Numerous independent bike
    designers are fully embracing the new 650B wheel size and producing 650B
    frames. The current list of frame builders includes:

    a.. Ahrens Cycles
    b.. Carver Bikes
    c.. El Camino Fabrication
    d.. Engin Cycles
    e.. Independent Fabrication
    f.. Kent Eriksen
    g.. Origin 8
    h.. Pacenti Cycles
    i.. Rawland Cycles
    j.. Rivendell
    k.. Rock Lobster Cycles
    l.. Siren Cycles
    m.. Soma
    n.. Tomac Mountain Bikes
    o.. Turner Suspension Bikes
    p.. Vicious Cycles
    q.. Walt Works
    r.. Willits Brand
    s.. ZR Cycles

    Noel Buckley of Knolly Bikes, who understands the impact wheel size has on
    full-suspension frame design, says: "Kirk's forward thinking vision is
    correct in that 29'er wheels don't work well for frames with more than 100mm
    of rear travel. While working on the design of a 29er version of our new
    Endorphin frame, we started realizing that serious compromises would need to
    be made to the frame geometry due to undesirable forward wheel paths, chain
    stay lengths, and BB height all caused by the large 29" wheel diameter.

    "Kirk knows what he's talking about. The 650B wheel size makes more sense
    for a company looking to produce big wheeled bikes in the 100 - 150mm travel
    category because they get the rolling benefits of the larger tire, but don't
    have to modify frame geometries much, or have to contend with the design
    compromises imposed by 29 inch wheels."

    As many as a dozen manufacturers will have 650B parts and components ready
    for this year's Interbike trade show and distribution of the new Pacenti
    650B tires will be handled by a number of well-known distributors. (A list
    of distributors will be available soon.)

    "I am fully committed to the 650B wheel mountain bike," says Pacenti. "I
    have been receiving daily inquiries from custom builders and even consumers
    who are very interested in the wheel size. Support for this project has been
    overwhelming. I truly believe 650B wheel bikes have a bright future in
    mountain biking."

    About Pacenti Cycle Design
    Kirk Pacenti founded Pacenti Cycle Design for the sole purpose of supplying
    and offering support to the artisans who build quality hand-crafted bicycle
    frames. He provides particular dedication to lugged steel construction but
    is expanding his product offerings to include all materials and construction
    techniques including the new 650B wheel bike. For more information call
    (423) 954-3373 or log onto the Internet at www.bikelugs.com.

    Interestingly, the article fails to mention that Carbon frame builder Don
    Parlee also builds 650B carbon bikes (for Cycle Tournesol). 650B (584mm)
    wheels may not have been successful in the touring/country bike catagory,
    but the new "27.5" MTB standard looks prime. Are you ready?

  2. Posting binary images to a non-binary NG is not cool, nor has it ever
    been cool on USENET. Please post URLs next time.

    --
    Luigi de Guzman
    http://ouij.livejournal.com

  3. In article <[email hidden]>,

    bfd said:

    Kirk Pacenti must have alot of pull!

    I'll agree when Trek or Cannondale are selling 650B mountain bikes.
    Otherwise it's just a list of small boutique makers, often just one
    person, for whom adding a 650B wheel size is little to no trouble. As
    for the Panaracer tire, they'll make any tire you want as long as you're
    willing to meet the minimum purchase.

  4. "Luigi de Guzman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Posting binary images to a non-binary NG is not cool, nor has it ever
    been cool on USENET. Please post URLs next time.


    Sorry about that. I just cut and paste without realizing it contained the
    images.

  5. "Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    bfd said:

    Kirk Pacenti must have alot of pull!

    I'll agree when Trek or Cannondale are selling 650B mountain bikes.
    Otherwise it's just a list of small boutique makers, often just one
    person, for whom adding a 650B wheel size is little to no trouble. As
    for the Panaracer tire, they'll make any tire you want as long as you're
    willing to meet the minimum purchase.

    Therein lies the problem. Large mfrs will look at adding yet another size as
    a burden. One major problem - LBS dealers. LBSs have a hard enough time
    selling a bike. Trying to explain 650B to customers may be difficult. On the
    other hand, if you just let customers ride the bike, they may like it enough
    to not realize its a different size.

    650B is a solution for those trying to convert older "racing" style bikes
    into more useful, versatile ones. So, can 650B be the *compromise* needed
    between 26" and 29ers in the mtb world?

  6. In article <[email hidden]>,

    bfd said:

    "Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, "bfd"

    Quoted message said:

    Kirk Pacenti must have alot of pull!

    I'll agree when Trek or Cannondale are selling 650B mountain bikes.
    Otherwise it's just a list of small boutique makers, often just one
    person, for whom adding a 650B wheel size is little to no trouble.
    As for the Panaracer tire, they'll make any tire you want as long
    as you're willing to meet the minimum purchase.

    Therein lies the problem. Large mfrs will look at adding yet another
    size as a burden.

    And it is, given that they would have to create new tooling to make use
    of that size. That expense, for a product with unknown market
    acceptance, would tend to lead to a conservative approach to adoption of
    650B.

    Quoted message said:

    One major problem - LBS dealers. LBSs have a hard enough time selling
    a bike. Trying to explain 650B to customers may be difficult. On the
    other hand, if you just let customers ride the bike, they may like it
    enough to not realize its a different size.

    I've ridden a few 650B bike, since my favorite LBS stocks that size, and
    they are very nice bikes. They don't look or feel weird in any way, and
    Joe Average customer might very well not even notice.

    Quoted message said:

    650B is a solution for those trying to convert older "racing" style
    bikes into more useful, versatile ones. So, can 650B be the
    *compromise* needed between 26" and 29ers in the mtb world?

    That I don't know. I've not ever ridden 650B off road. IME 700 x 25
    work well for most trails around here and 700 x 28 works for the rest of
    them. We ain't got much technical stuff hereabouts.

  7. Luigi de Guzman said:

    Posting binary images to a non-binary NG is not cool, nor has it ever
    been cool on USENET. Please post URLs next time.

    Not to mention that those of us on more clueful newsservers will never
    even see your post. I see the ref to a previous message in your
    headers, but that post isn't in my newsspool.

    --
    Dane Buson - [email hidden]
    "Americans are broad-minded people. They'll accept the fact that a
    person can be an alcoholic, a dope fiend, a wife beater, and even a
    newspaperman, but if a man doesn't drive there's something wrong with him."
    Art Buchwald

  8. bfd said:


    650B is a solution for those trying to convert older "racing" style bikes
    into more useful, versatile ones. So, can 650B be the *compromise* needed
    between 26" and 29ers in the mtb world?

    I don't understand the desire for an intermediate size. Between fat
    559 tires and smallish 622 MTB tires, there isn't really that much
    diameter difference anyway. Riders who are categorically too short
    for 29" would be better served by 26" wheels rather than something in
    between.

    I reckon that any amount of industrial support garnered by a 27.5"
    wheel size will just be that much market proliferation and support
    subtracted from the 29" size. And then the 27.5" size will die
    quietly by suffocation.

    Chalo

  9. On Jul 26, 1:46 pm, Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote:

    <snipped>

    - on 650B wheels and tires -

    Quoted message said:

    I've ridden a few 650B bike, since my favorite LBS stocks that size, and
    they are very nice bikes. They don't look or feel weird in any way, and
    Joe Average customer might very well not even notice.

    "Joe Average customer might very well not even notice." ? What then is
    the point of inflicting this relatively hard to find, oddball tire
    size on the public?????

  10. "bfd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    650B is a solution for those trying to convert older "racing" style bikes
    into more useful, versatile ones. So, can 650B be the *compromise* needed
    between 26" and 29ers in the mtb world?

    Why is a compromise needed? Slaves to fashion or 'cross guys ride 700c, the
    rest of us ride 26" off-road.

    Greg
    --
    Ticketbastard tax tracker:
    http://ticketmastersucks.org/tracker.html

    Dethink to survive - Mclusky

  11. "Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    That I don't know. I've not ever ridden 650B off road. IME 700 x 25
    work well for most trails around here and 700 x 28 works for the rest of
    them. We ain't got much technical stuff hereabouts.

    No ruts? I pinch flat my 700c x 28s on non-technical rutted trails all the
    time.

    Greg
    --
    Ticketbastard tax tracker:
    http://ticketmastersucks.org/tracker.html

    Dethink to survive - Mclusky

  12. Chalo said:
    bfd said:


    650B is a solution for those trying to convert older "racing" style bikes
    into more useful, versatile ones. So, can 650B be the *compromise* needed
    between 26" and 29ers in the mtb world?

    I don't understand the desire for an intermediate size. Between fat
    559 tires and smallish 622 MTB tires, there isn't really that much
    diameter difference anyway. Riders who are categorically too short
    for 29" would be better served by 26" wheels rather than something in
    between.

    The fork problem makes it even harder to sell 650B mountain bikes to
    such riders. Currently there are no 650B specific suspension forks
    available, and that's not the sort of item that any framebuilder can
    turn out. You could of course build a 650B bike around a 29er fork, but
    then you're stuck with the exact same tall front end that makes it hard
    to put short people on a 29er in the first place.

    I suppose rigid forks are an option, but then the market is limited to
    the pool of people who are dissatisfied with 26" wheels, too short to
    ride 29", and willing to ride rigid. That's an awfully small group.

  13. In article <[email hidden]>,

    G.T. said:

    "Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    That I don't know. I've not ever ridden 650B off road. IME 700 x
    25 work well for most trails around here and 700 x 28 works for the
    rest of them. We ain't got much technical stuff hereabouts.

    No ruts? I pinch flat my 700c x 28s on non-technical rutted trails
    all the time.

    Not so much, I guess. A lot of that is probably due to most of our
    trails- at least the ones longer than two miles- being mainly along the
    Mississippi and Minnesota River bottoms. The soil tends to be sandy and
    fairly soft. I don't ride off-road all that often any more; there are a
    few trails with slightly more technical stuff but those tend to be
    short- you've gotta do 10 laps to get in a ride of decent duration and
    it's boring as hell.

  14. Quoted message said:

    <snipped>
    - on 650B wheels and tires -

    Quoted message said:
    Tim McNamara said:

    I've ridden a few 650B bike, since my favorite LBS stocks that size, and
    they are very nice bikes. They don't look or feel weird in any way, and
    Joe Average customer might very well not even notice.

    Ozark Bicycle said:

    "Joe Average customer might very well not even notice." ? What then is
    the point of inflicting this relatively hard to find, oddball tire
    size on the public?????

    Remember GT 700D wheels? A spate of cheap 650B bikes in the mid-80s?
    Riders had no idea until a tire was cut years later. . .

    The point? I have no idea then or now.

    Peugeot/Gitane/Urago/Bertin/Singer etc nice tourers and tandems with
    650B made some sense as those were domestic French models primarily or
    at least sold to the cognescenti with 650B as a somehwhat desirable
    feature. $199 bikes with unsupported tire formats (steel rims, no
    less!) were disconcerting to dealers and customers alike.
    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971

  15. bfd said:

    Kirk Pacenti must have alot of pull!
    ....
    Bike designer Kirk Pacenti is into big wheels. He was riding 700C and 700D
    wheels in the early 1990s, has been a long-time proponent of 29ers, and
    probably even rode one of those plastic "Big Wheel" tricycles as a kid. But
    now he has seen the MTB future and the wheel size is 650B.

    The advantages?

    About the only advantage a 650B MTB has is that bike companies can sell
    something "new" to all the people who already own 559mm bikes.

    I note that most of those "interested builders" are small custom shops
    who can't build commodity bikes to compete with the likes of
    Specialized. Chasing the big companies is a dead-end for them, because
    they can't ever do it as /much/ as a big company can, and they can't
    ever do it as /cheap/ either.
    ~

  16. DougC said:
    bfd said:

    Kirk Pacenti must have alot of pull!
    ....
    Bike designer Kirk Pacenti is into big wheels. He was riding 700C and 700D
    wheels in the early 1990s, has been a long-time proponent of 29ers, and
    probably even rode one of those plastic "Big Wheel" tricycles as a kid. But
    now he has seen the MTB future and the wheel size is 650B.

    Quoted message said:

    The advantages?

    About the only advantage a 650B MTB has is that bike companies can sell
    something "new" to all the people who already own 559mm bikes.

    That "advantage" is not just limited to 650B MTBs, IMO. It pretty much
    extends to any production line 650B bicycle sold for use primarily in
    North America.

    Quoted message said:


    I note that most of those "interested builders" are small custom shops
    who can't build commodity bikes to compete with the likes of
    Specialized. Chasing the big companies is a dead-end for them, because
    they can't ever do it as /much/ as a big company can, and they can't
    ever do it as /cheap/ either.

    Bingo! It's "niche market" or else.

  17. bfd said:

    650B is a solution for those trying to convert older "racing" style bikes
    into more useful, versatile ones. So, can 650B be the *compromise* needed
    between 26" and 29ers in the mtb world?

    Solution, maybe, for converting older road racing bikes into wider,
    softer, smaller tire bikes maybe more useful for non paved road
    riding.

    "*compromise* needed"? Needed? Last I looked 26" and 700C (29er if
    you did not know) tires were available from less than 1 inch to about
    2.5 inches widths in everything from slick to knobby on almost all
    widths. If you can't find the width, and therefore diameter, and
    tread you want for a 26" or 700C bike, then you are too lazy in your
    looking.

  18. email hidden said:
    bfd said:

    650B is a solution for those trying to convert older "racing" style bikes
    into more useful, versatile ones. So, can 650B be the *compromise* needed
    between 26" and 29ers in the mtb world?

    Solution, maybe, for converting older road racing bikes into wider,
    softer, smaller tire bikes maybe more useful for non paved road
    riding.

    Yes, and that represents a vanishingly small market in North America.
    *Maybe* several thousand tires a year. Not enough to disinter the
    moribund 650B size here in North America.

    Quoted message said:


    "*compromise* needed"? Needed? Last I looked 26" and 700C (29er if
    you did not know) tires were available from less than 1 inch to about
    2.5 inches widths in everything from slick to knobby on almost all
    widths. If you can't find the width, and therefore diameter, and
    tread you want for a 26" or 700C bike, then you are too lazy in your
    looking.

    650B is a solution in search of a problem, unless you are a small,
    Hobbit-sized bike maker looking to sell yet another bike or frame to
    the faithful.

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