5x5s Under pVo2max

gvanwagner said:

A bit ago I estimated my power at vo2max to be 385 watts. I got this estimate going by the quasi-steady state after the obvious depletion of AWC during a 5 min all out effort.

For my Level 5 intervals for 20 min total interval time (4x5, 5x4, etc.) I can generally only do around 360-365 for the set.

Is it a reasonable assumption to say that Im not getting in much if any time at vo2max this way?

Threshold currently is 305 watts so my 5 min intervals are at around 1.20 IF which borders on L6 but regardless they are still below my Vo2max (est.) power.

If I did them at vo2max power that would be an IF of 1.26 for 5 min.

365/385= 95% of pVo2max.

Is there any benefit in doing 20 or more minutes of total interval time when I know that it's only at 95%. Should I cut the work time down so I can complete them at a higher power/ more likely to be at Vo2max even if for a shorter time.

Im working on Building my FTP back up to the 325 it was early in the year so I assume that once I get up there I won't have nearly the trouble trying to do Intervals at 100% pVo2max. Of course I still need to know what to do with the L5 in the meantime.

Thanks,
Greg

If you are basing the interval off of a 'quasi ..whatever' test, then perhaps your original test is wrong. Your "VO2 Est.." power can be tested in a lab, or at least try for your CP5.

If you do your 5 minute intervals as hard as you can and they are over 120% of FT...you are in the zone.

I am not sure that one single 5 min bout will give a good estimate of pVO2Max. I am not an expert in cycling testing, but I'd expect a 5min all out test to result into a power level that is over pVO2Max.

Not having read on this particular subject, and having no data to back my statement, I'd guess that a 7 or 8 min long effort (maybe 9) would probably bring you closer to the pVO2max, although I may be off.

As for your ability to target that zone, well as you probably already know, the game is to acheive the best possible mean power over those 20 min. A vo2max effort is a max effort. The reason for pacing those efforts isn't to make them correspond to some sort of a chart, but rather to be able to finish the set with the highest possible values.

gvanwagner said:

A bit ago I estimated my power at vo2max to be 385 watts. I got this estimate going by the quasi-steady state after the obvious depletion of AWC during a 5 min all out effort.

For my Level 5 intervals for 20 min total interval time (4x5, 5x4, etc.) I can generally only do around 360-365 for the set.

Is it a reasonable assumption to say that Im not getting in much if any time at vo2max this way?

Threshold currently is 305 watts so my 5 min intervals are at around 1.20 IF which borders on L6 but regardless they are still below my Vo2max (est.) power.

If I did them at vo2max power that would be an IF of 1.26 for 5 min.

365/385= 95% of pVo2max.

Is there any benefit in doing 20 or more minutes of total interval time when I know that it's only at 95%. Should I cut the work time down so I can complete them at a higher power/ more likely to be at Vo2max even if for a shorter time.

Im working on Building my FTP back up to the 325 it was early in the year so I assume that once I get up there I won't have nearly the trouble trying to do Intervals at 100% pVo2max. Of course I still need to know what to do with the L5 in the meantime.

Thanks,
Greg

I thought 90-100% of vo2max was considered the "ideal" v02 training zone (IOW, it's not important to ride right at 100% Pv02)?

Some semi-random thoughts:

1) the plateau or quasi-plateau in power at the end of a pursuit-like 5 min effort provides a very good estimate of power at VO2max. However, it could overestimate it slightly if you held back a bit early on and spread your AWC out over the entire duration, versus going flat-out as in, e.g., a race, and then hanging on by the skin of your teeth to the very end.

2) the inability to perform repeated efforts at the power corresponding to 100% of VO2max could also be due:

A) VO2 drift, i.e., your VO2 is truly maximal but your power is down due to reduced efficiency, or

B) inadequate fatigue resistance of your muscles, thus preventing you from repeatedly driving your VO2 to maximum. (This is why 1) I think Lydiard had it right, and 2) why I don't favor the training schema advocated by Dave Morris, in which VO2max training is performed before training of LT.)

Regardless of any of the above, I wouldn't worry too much about the difference between 385 W and 360-365 W. The latter is certainly high enough to provide a potent stimulus for increasing your VO2max, so if that's all you can do, so be it. The frequency with which you do such workouts and your motivation when doing them likely has a lot more to do with how much benefit you obtain than the precise intensity at which you do such intervals.

SolarEnergy said:

I am not sure that one single 5 min bout will give a good estimate of pVO2Max. I am not an expert in cycling testing, but I'd expect a 5min all out test to result into a power level that is over pVO2Max.

gvanwagner was referring to the plateau or quasi-plateau in power observed during the latter stages of a pursuit-like effort, not the overall average power. IOW, his average power for that 5 min effort was indeed probably greater than his power at VO2max...but after using up his anaerobic capacity, it became completely "pay as you go".

acoggan said:

Some semi-random thoughts:

1) the plateau or quasi-plateau in power at the end of a pursuit-like 5 min effort provides a very good estimate of power at VO2max. However, it could overestimate it slightly if you held back a bit early on and spread your AWC out over the entire duration, versus going flat-out as in, e.g., a race, and then hanging on by the skin of your teeth to the very end.

2) the inability to perform repeated efforts at the power corresponding to 100% of VO2max could also be due:

A) VO2 drift, i.e., your VO2 is truly maximal but your power is down due to reduced efficiency, or

B) inadequate fatigue resistance of your muscles, thus preventing you from repeatedly driving your VO2 to maximum. (This is why 1) I think Lydiard had it right, and 2) why I don't favor the training schema advocated by Dave Morris, in which VO2max training is performed before training of LT.)

Regardless of any of the above, I wouldn't worry too much about the difference between 385 W and 360-365 W. The latter is certainly high enough to provide a potent stimulus for increasing your VO2max, so if that's all you can do, so be it. The frequency with which you do such workouts and your motivation when doing them likely has a lot more to do with how much benefit you obtain than the precise intensity at which you do such intervals.

Thanks,

This sort of confirms my plan to really crank down on L4 intervals before I add the L5 back in. After I raise my FTP the 15-20 watts to where it was then that gap should close a bit.

Greg

You want to be careful using any predicted or est VO2 tests. These tests are nortorious for overpredicting the unfit and overpredicting the very fit. Just a thought from some days in the physiology lab years ago

gvanwagner said:

A bit ago I estimated my power at vo2max to be 385 watts. I got this estimate going by the quasi-steady state after the obvious depletion of AWC during a 5 min all out effort.

For my Level 5 intervals for 20 min total interval time (4x5, 5x4, etc.) I can generally only do around 360-365 for the set.

Is it a reasonable assumption to say that Im not getting in much if any time at vo2max this way?

Threshold currently is 305 watts so my 5 min intervals are at around 1.20 IF which borders on L6 but regardless they are still below my Vo2max (est.) power.

If I did them at vo2max power that would be an IF of 1.26 for 5 min.

365/385= 95% of pVo2max.

Is there any benefit in doing 20 or more minutes of total interval time when I know that it's only at 95%. Should I cut the work time down so I can complete them at a higher power/ more likely to be at Vo2max even if for a shorter time.

Im working on Building my FTP back up to the 325 it was early in the year so I assume that once I get up there I won't have nearly the trouble trying to do Intervals at 100% pVo2max. Of course I still need to know what to do with the L5 in the meantime.

Thanks,
Greg