5m vs 20m power

8 Weeks of 2x20s Monday and Friday @ 95% Personal 20 min best at the start of the plan.

Ride hard with strong 30-45 min efforts in endurance rides. Throw in some bursts at tempo to practice recovering when pushing.

3 hours with 30 mins sweetspot.
2 hours endurance with 45 mins tempo.

2 hours with 60 mins tempo with bursts every 5 mins.

I was in a similar place.
Came out of the winter feeling rough. Picked up a V02 Max intense plan. 5 Min power shot up to about ~330s but FTP still lagged. in 8 weeks went from 250w FTP to about 260-270 by the end of the 8 weeks.

Had to take 2 weeks off after the plan. Bummer but the high end V02 was still there repeatability of the 6 x 3min was gone though. Been focusing on FTP intervals twice a week since then 3x10s 2x15s 2x20s and shot up in FTP in the first few weeks. Coming to the last week now and my training has been [censored] on review hours have been rubbish in the V02 plan I had my CTL @ 109 at the end. CTL is now stagnant @ 86 and has been all the way through the plan but FTP is better at the end of these 8 weeks than it was at the height of my V02 plan.

Set 295 for 15 mins in a TT the other day. That's about 20w more than my PB.

Came out of the winter feeling rough. Picked up a V02 Max intense plan. 5 Min power shot up to about ~330s but FTP still lagged. in 8 weeks went from 250w FTP to about 260-270 by the end of the 8 weeks.

Avi Tzurel said:

Lately I am frustrated about not progressing with my 20m threshold tests.

My 20m threshold is 245W and has been stuck there for about 6 months with no progress.
However, my 5m power has increased dramatically and I haven't even went all out for 5m.

My 5m power is 310W and I assume if I go all out I can do around 325W.

Some more data:
My peak 5m power has always been on hills (7-8%), slow cadence (75-80) and sitting down the entire time.
My 20m efforts were always on flat or rolling (1-2%) with cadence around 88-92.

Last time I did 20m up a hill I was able to produce 256W on the road bike (as opposed to the TT/Tri bike) and it was back in April.
Since then I wasn't able to do the same and wasn't able to break the 245W barrier on the Tri bike.

I guess my question is why would I be stuck so much lower than my 5M power output, how can I improve it and has such a thing ever happened to you and what did you do to improve it...

Try smashing a bigger gear in the 20 minute test to keep the cadence down around 80 rpm to see what happens.

What do I do to improve my 20 minute and longer power - ride more, lots of L2, 3 and some chunks of 4.

Are you going to need to 20min effort in race, probably not?
Are you going to need a bunch of 1-5min efforts in a race, hell yeah.

Sounds like you a training well and getting good results in and around your CP5. Don't worry about your CP20. Just train in and around the way you expect to race and everything else will take care of itself. If you start focusing on your CP20 and your FTP too much you'll find your ability to race well will suffer.

If you are going to track your progress, track it against what it is you expect to do in a race.

Paul

Avi Tzurel said:

Lately I am frustrated about not progressing with my 20m threshold tests.

My 20m threshold is 245W and has been stuck there for about 6 months with no progress.
However, my 5m power has increased dramatically and I haven't even went all out for 5m.

Your training efforts are too short. They seem to be helping your 5 minute power but not your 20 minute power. You might try making your training efforts 3 or 4 times as long. That should help your 20 minute power at the expense of your 5 minute power.

Podium Life said:

Are you going to need to 20min effort in race, probably not?
Are you going to need a bunch of 1-5min efforts in a race, hell yeah.

Because I don't race any more, I don't know what efforts are necessary in races. But 20 minutes of climbing was not unreasonable in the past. There 20 minute power might a the deciding factor.

An old Guy said:

Your training efforts are too short. They seem to be helping your 5 minute power but not your 20 minute power. You might try making your training efforts 3 or 4 times as long. That should help your 20 minute power at the expense of your 5 minute power.
....

I agree there. The 20min best avg speed is an important indicator here as most TTs are 10milers. As strange of an idea as it may sound, I tend to prescribe targeting both shorter duration (i.e. 3-5min, as in track pursuit for instance) and longer durations (i.e. 40-60min efforts, best avg), instead of doing what most would instinctively do, i.e. targeting the 20-25min to improve the 20-25min TT.

Also, Avi Tzurel, do not neglect the importance of achieving the best possible fit on your TT bike, one that provides with the best compromise between Cda and power. Sometimes people tend to aim for aero, at the expense of power.

Ignore 20 minute to 1 hour power at your peril.

You may remember those 3 to 5 minute efforts because they hurt more but there's only so many of those you can do before you go pop. Up your 20minute power and life gets better.

Easy way to get the 20 minute power up - intervals over 10 minutes long. Chuck in a bit of the old kitchen sink during the ride too - some [censored] hard sub 40 second efforts, some VO2 max and some L2 as well.

Concentrate on weight, 20+ minute power and your position on the bike. Do intervals in the position the terrain requires. 8 minutes VO2 efforts on the hoods with arms straight don't translate well to 8 minutes at 27 mph by yourself on the flat in a race where head low and back flattish is required. If you're doing hill intervals, try different cadences in and out of the saddle. In training it's all about improving form and power - in racing it's whatever gets the job done. If it takes a head down, wobbling on the bike like a drunken donkey at 80 rpm in 53x12 effort then that's what you do to either hang on or to try for a win.

That's really interesting but I think 5M is better, at least for me because I don't think it's good to have 20M. Going slowly is better and I guess it all depends on weight and what you can do so it's more subjective.

kylerlittle said:

That's really interesting but I think 5M is better, at least for me because I don't think it's good to have 20M. Going slowly is better and I guess it all depends on weight and what you can do so it's more subjective.

I moved away from focusing on what people should be doing and just started focusing on what goes on with athletes in races and their power files. I found CP5 to be a much better measure for tracking progress. In almost 99% of cases, it all comes down to your 1-5min power range and how often you can keep repeating that number.

The end result was that I just let my athletes results do the talking...None of them would even know what their FTP is or their CP20, but they have their CP5s right up to CP5min dialled right in, in terms of their raw number and w/kg.

For the sake of providing proof, two of my athletes today picked up the KOM jersey in their respective divisions at the Battle on the Border in Australia. One of our biggest races for the year.,

facebook.comphoto.phpOpen ↗

Paul

Podium Life said:

I moved away from focusing on what people should be doing and just started focusing on what goes on with athletes in races and their power files. I found CP5 to be a much better measure for tracking progress. In almost 99% of cases, it all comes down to your 1-5min power range and how often you can keep repeating that number.

I agree that too many people rely on the wrong number, CP5, CP20, or CP60. It is best to look at the rider and the events he participates in and train to those.

Frustration, eh? I feel ya. It's like being stuck on a plateau, isn't it? It's great that your 5m power is improving, but it's the 20m threshold that's giving you the blues. Here's a thought: have you considered that your training might be a bit unbalanced? You're killing it on the hills with slow cadence, but your 20m efforts are on flat or rolling terrain with higher cadence. Maybe you should mix it up a bit. Try some hill intervals with higher cadence, or some flat-out efforts on the flat. And don't forget about recovery rides! They're just as important as the hard efforts.

As for the bike, I'd recommend a Specialized Sirrus or a Trek FX. Both are great fitness bikes that'll serve you well for cardio workouts and urban riding. Just make sure you get a good fit, and don't be afraid to spend a bit more for a better bike. Trust me, it's worth it in the long run.

But hey, don't take my word as gospel. Do your own research, and make sure you're getting the right bike for you. And remember, progress takes time. Don't get discouraged if you don't see immediate results. Keep at it, and you'll smash that 245W threshold in no time. 😉

I see your frustration, but it's important to consider the specific demands of each effort. Hill sprints and 20m threshold tests are fundamentally different. Your 5m power may have increased due to anaerobic development, whereas your 20m threshold remains unchanged due to insufficient aerobic adaptation. Instead of focusing on peak power, work on building your aerobic capacity with longer, steady efforts around 90% of your 20m threshold to foster progress.

Hold up. You're missing the point. It's not about pitting anaerobic vs. aerobic development. It's about recognizing that cyclists need both to excel. By solely focusing on 20m threshold, you're neglecting the power and explosiveness needed for hill sprints. Instead, integrate high-intensity interval training to boost your overall performance. Don't limit yourself to one aspect; conquer them all.

Ah, but my dear fellow cyclist, have you considered the delicate balance of the Yin and Yang in our training routines? While it's true that we need both anaerobic and aerobic development, isn't there a certain charm in the thrill of pushing yourself to the limit during those 20m sprints?

You see, while high-intensity interval training might be the secret sauce for some, others might find solace in the marathon-esque endurance rides. After all, variety is the spice of life, isn't it? ️

So, instead of viewing it as a limitation, why not embrace the uniqueness of our individual preferences? Let's celebrate the fact that we're not all cookie-cutter cyclists with identical training regimens. Instead, let's learn from one another and grow together as a community of two-wheeled warriors! ‍♂️‍♀️

But tell me, what's your take on this? How do you like to shake up your training routine to keep things exciting?

Ah, the age-old tale of the stuck threshold. It's as if the cycling gods have conspired to keep you at 245W, isn't it? While your 5m power soars like an eagle, your 20m remains as stubborn as a mule. But fear not, dear frustrated cyclist! For I, the darksmaster923, have the solution. It's simple, really. Ditch those flat, rolling hills and head for the steepest, most grueling inclines you can find. Embrace the pain, the agony, the burning sensation in your legs. Only then will you break through the shackles of your 20m threshold and reach new heights. Or, you know, you could just keep doing what you're doing and hope for the best. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Ever felt like you're hitting a wall with your cycling performance? It's not just about putting in the miles on flat terrain. To truly break through your limits, you need to conquer those steep inclines. It's not just about the physical challenge, but the mental one too. Embrace the pain and push yourself to new heights. Remember, the only limits that exist are the ones we set for ourselves. So, are you ready to crush your cycling goals and redefine what's possible? ‍♂️️

Stuck at 245W, eh? Must be nice to have a 5m power of 310W, while the rest of us are struggling to break 200W. Maybe if you stopped focusing on those pesky 20m tests and focused on the real challenge, you'd see some progress. Or not, who knows with you hill-climbing, slow-cadence show-offs. 😉

Hmm, so you're saying that focusing on 20m tests might not be the key to breaking 250W? Maybe hill-climbing at a slower cadence builds endurance, allowing for more power over time? Or perhaps it's all about finding the right balance between power and efficiency. Ever tried any indoor cycling apps with power-based workouts? They might offer some fresh insights! ‍♂️ #curiouscyclist

Focusing solely on 20-minute tests might not yield the power breakthrough you're after. Hill-climbing, as you've suggested, can indeed build endurance, enabling you to sustain higher power outputs over time. It's akin to strength training - you're not just increasing your power, but also your ability to maintain it.

Indoor cycling apps with power-based workouts can offer fresh perspectives, but remember, they're not the be-all and end-all. They can provide structured training and instant feedback, which is great, but they can't replicate the unpredictability of outdoor cycling.

Consider this: I used to obsess over power numbers, but I hit a plateau. Then, I started incorporating more hill-climbs and outdoor rides into my routine. Lo and behold, my power numbers started climbing again. It wasn't just about pushing harder, but about becoming a more well-rounded cyclist.

So, don't be a one-trick pony. Mix up your training, and you might find your power numbers follow suit. 💪