'40% survive without a car'

"Gawnsoft" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

No mention of cycles in the means of avoiding a car.

My partner and I don't have a car. We walk and use bicycles.

However it's extremely difficult to carry certain things on a bicycle and there are times when a car
really would be useful.

We can't afford one at the moment, but when we can, we will get one. Stil use the bicycle though 🙂

dwb said:

However it's extremely difficult to carry certain things on a bicycle a=

nd

Quoted message said:

there are times when a car really would be useful.

It depends on the cycle to quite an extent. My 8 Freight has enough=20 cargo capacity to pick up a
new fridge, in its packing, from my local=20 Comet which is about 8km away from my house. I use it
fairly regularly=20 to get 2 sacks of coal and a couple of bags of kindling sticks up a fair =

size hill back to my house in one trip, and it takes a trolley full of=20 shopping with ease. There
are still things where a car, or a van, would be better but for=20 local freight duties a cargo bike
can carry a *lot* of stuff. The 8=20 cost me =A31150 plus a bit for a dynamo light setup. That's a
lot for a =

bike, but think of it in terms of annual tax and insurance costs plus=20 fuel and maintenance costs
on a car and it soon pays for itself.

Quoted message said:

We can't afford one at the moment, but when we can, we will get one. St=

il

Quoted message said:

use the bicycle though 🙂

The main point of a car for me is getting long distances in a short=20 time, possibly with awkward
cargo. 5m sea kayaks 100 miles in an=20 evening, for example, ain't going to happen with cycles. But
for local=20 freight duties you can get a lot of stuff around with the right sort of=20 bike, and
you can still hire a van for the odd occasions you need=20 serious cargo capacity without having to
go through such a large capital =

cost or a reasonably high recurring cost just own a car.

There's a review of the 8 Freight at=20 velovision.co.uk8freight.pdfOpen ↗

Of course it's also the case that for rather less money you can buy a=20 good cargo trailer and turn
your existing bike into a far more capable=20 freight machine than it is in its usual configuration.

Pete. --=20 Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics,
Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
dwb wrote:

There's a review of the 8 Freight at velovision.co.uk8freight.pdfOpen ↗

Of course it's also the case that for rather less money you can buy a good cargo trailer and turn
your existing bike into a far more capable freight machine than it is in its usual configuration.

I could just imagine reaction from the kids if i said "right you lot hop in here is your transport
to the football today " . Still looks like it could be pretty useful machine though .

Ross

Ross said:

I could just imagine reaction from the kids if i said "right you lot hop in here is your transport
to the football today "

They could have the option of their own bicycles though!

I've used the 8 to pick a friend up from the station, sort of. The Brompton went in the back in
"Thunderbird 4" mode (it's even yellow!), when I got to the station it was deployed for my guest and
her bag went in the back of the 8 and we both rode back to the house.

Just back from a long weekend in the NL, and in Amsterdam I saw lots of kids being transported by
cycle, either under their own power or someone else's, but there the locals are enlightened enough
to regard even non-standard bikes as normal rather than the last resort of underfunded freaks...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Gawnsoft said:

This article was in yesterday's Edinburgh Herald & Post:
================
Around 40% of people in Edinburgh survive without a car, according to a new study.

The latest Scottish Household Survey

<snip>

"Transport across Scotland in 2001 and 2002: some Scottish Household survey results for part
of Scotland"

scotland.gov.uk00319.pdfOpen ↗ 968kB

Alex

On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 10:23:48 -0000 someone who may be "dwb"
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

However it's extremely difficult to carry certain things on a bicycle and there are times when a
car really would be useful.

As has been said, there are specialist cycles and trailers, such as can be seen at
twoplustwo.uk.comtwoplustwo.uk.comOpen ↗. I have heard of groups of people living near each other that club
together to buy a load carrying bike and then share it.

Quoted message said:

We can't afford one at the moment, but when we can, we will get one. Stil use the bicycle though 🙂

An alternative is to hire a motor van for the few occasions that bikes will not transport things.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked
keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

dwb said:

"Gawnsoft" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

No mention of cycles in the means of avoiding a car.

My partner and I don't have a car. We walk and use bicycles.

Same here, and we have four children.

Quoted message said:

However it's extremely difficult to carry certain things on a bicycle

_Very_ rarely. I use a vitelli trailer that can easily take 60kg and has carried items from chairs
to a firkin of ale. With the hitch it is unhooked in a matter of seconds and is as much at home on
teh back of the Brompton as on the Trice.

Quoted message said:

there are times when a car really would be useful.

Perhaps, but in 17 years without one I am struggling to think of when. When we went 'car-free' we
did the sums and said that if needed to we could always hire. So far the need has not arisen.

Occasionally we use a 'man-and-van' service and sometimes taxis. Most large goods can be delivered.
The biggest benefit is being away from the car-culture and the speed is essential mentality.

Quoted message said:

We can't afford one at the moment, but when we can, we will get one.

Your choice. Enjoy the stress. I'll wave as I ride past ;-)

John B

JohnB said:

dwb wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

there are times when a car really would be useful.

Quoted message said:

Perhaps, but in 17 years without one I am struggling to think of when.

Easy: you need to get yourself, and quite possibly a small number of others, to a place that's
inaccessible by bike in the time available and by public transport by virtue of the awkward loads
you're carrying, the awkward times you want to get here, or the awkward public transport not running
there at all.

Plenty of hobbies exist where those are very real issues, and I indulge in several of them. For day
to day life utility jobs I have no need of a car, but for access to recreation activities I wish to
follow a car, or at least some sort of share in one, is pretty much vital.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Chillies <[email hidden]> wrote:
( Gawnsoft wrote:
) > This article was in yesterday's Edinburgh Herald & Post:
( > ================
) > Around 40% of people in Edinburgh survive without a car, according to
( > a new study.
) >
( > The latest Scottish Household Survey
) <snip>
(
) "Transport across Scotland in 2001 and 2002: some Scottish
( Household survey results for part of Scotland"
)
( scotland.gov.uk00319.pdfOpen ↗ 968kB

Surely not. That pdf doesn't contain the word "survive". Or was that a value judgement invented
by the H&P?

dwb <[email hidden]> wrote:

: However it's extremely difficult to carry certain things on a bicycle and there are times when a
: car really would be useful.

Yup. I have to get my new bike box back from work to home. This would have been tricky, but just
about possible on a BoB YaK, but I can't use that after the MTB I use to tow it got nicked. Sigh.

Someone I don't fancy pulling a trailer on 60" fixed. What price knees...

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune clune.orgclune.orgOpen ↗ "Technolibertarians make a philosophy out of a personality defect"
- Paulina Borsook

Peter Clinch said:

JohnB said:

dwb wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

there are times when a car really would be useful.

Quoted message said:

Perhaps, but in 17 years without one I am struggling to think of when.

Easy: you need to get yourself, and quite possibly a small number of others, to a place that's
inaccessible by bike in the time available and by public transport by virtue of the awkward loads
you're carrying, the awkward times you want to get here, or the awkward public transport not
running there at all.

The closest I can think of in the last 17 years when that applied was when I wanted to get all six
of us with a tandem trike, a tandem and a burley trailer plus our camping equipment to north London
to join up with the Europen Bike Express. We hired a minibus and driver , so no, it wasn't a problem
and all the hassles were taken away from us. So, no we didn't need a car then.

Quoted message said:

Plenty of hobbies exist where those are very real issues,

I'm sure there are if you choose them.

and I indulge

Quoted message said:

in several of them. For day to day life utility jobs I have no need of a car, but for access to
recreation activities I wish to follow a car, or at least some sort of share in one, is pretty
much vital.

Your choice.

John B

JohnB said:

Your choice.

Indeed, though what particularly appeals to me for my hobbies isn't really a choice, just whether I
choose to follow what particularly appeals or something that requires less hardware to partake.

The main difference between car and bike for me compared to many people is the bike is usually my
default whenever it will do what I want. I think that's highly untypical in the UK.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Peter Clinch said:

JohnB said:

Your choice.

Indeed, though what particularly appeals to me for my hobbies isn't really a choice, just whether
I choose to follow what particularly appeals or something that requires less hardware to partake.

The main difference between car and bike for me compared to many people is the bike is usually my
default whenever it will do what I want. I think that's highly untypical in the UK.

Pete.

I think your approach is laudable and I agree that it's probably not typical. I'm still not sure why
you own a car, though. Isn't occasional hire more economic (and more interesting)? I'm sure you've
done the maths. How did you come to conclude that ownership was best?
--
Michael MacClancy Random putdown - "He has Van Gogh's ear for music." - Billy Wilder
www.macclancy.demon.co.uk www.macclancy.co.uk

Michael MacClancy said:

I'm still not sure why you own a car, though.

I don't! I am on the insurance of Roos's though, so we can share the driving.

But beyond that the main problem with hire is it requires a degree of planning. One can't get in
from a day's work in summer, declare it's a bonny day with an East wind that means surf will be up
at Carnoustie or St. Andrews, hire a car with roofbars at 10 minutes notice, stick the playboats on
and go surfing for the evening. And so on.

It's not just a question of economics either. Though I'm not startlingly well paid I don't have any
dependants or a crushing mortgage, so I can choose to have a car if I want. Even when I have had one
I've used my bike(s) for far more trips, even back when I just had the old tourer, because it's just
*nicer* for me as well as doing me good and the environment less harm.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

"Gawnsoft" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This article was in yesterday's Edinburgh Herald & Post:
================
Around 40% of people in Edinburgh survive without a car, according to a new study.

The latest Scottish Household Survey also shows that some 20% of households in Scotland have 2 or
more cars. This figure rises to around 34% in accessible rural areas or the "commuter belt".

If you live in Scotland and want to find out what your own area is like, then

scrol.gov.ukanalyserOpen ↗

is a good place to find out.

e.g. tinyurl.com2nuneOpen ↗

In the 2001 census for example 750,422 households out of the 2,192,246 households in Scotland have
no car of van (i.e. 34%).

Edinburgh isn't the council area with the highest proportion of no-car households.

West Dumbartonshire = 43% Dundee City = 45.5% Glasgow = 56%

Gawnsoft posted ...

Quoted message said:

Around 40% of people in Edinburgh survive without a car, according to a new study.

Good for them.

Quoted message said:

The two things that struck me were:

No mention of cycles in the means of avoiding a car.

Setting 400m as the threshold for walking!

But at least it's not purely a pro-motoring piece, which is itself a break-through for the press!

Personally, I love cars as well as bikes .. 😉

--
Paul

On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 10:18:34 +0000, Gawnsoft
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

This article was in yesterday's Edinburgh Herald & Post:
================
Around 40% of people in Edinburgh survive without a car, according to a new study.

Does the editor have an email address? I would like to email a letter along the lines of "not al of
them will be surviving without a car, many of them will be actively enjoying life." My grandparents
never owned a car, because living in a city (in their case London) made it an unnecessary
extravagance.

Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
chapmancentral.demon.co.ukchapmancentral.demon.co.ukOpen ↗

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

Peter Clinch said:

Michael MacClancy said:

I'm still not sure why you own a car, though.

Quoted message said:

It's not just a question of economics either. Though I'm not startlingly well paid I don't have
any dependants or a crushing mortgage, so I can choose to have a car if I want.

I'm in a similar position (or at least I was, in the UK). Absolutely no _need_ for a car, but my
chosen hobby (mountain biking, including competitions starting at 9am on a sunday in the middle of
the countryside) would be very impractical without one. At least this meant that I could happily use
the cheapest crummiest car I could find, and it didn't matter that it spent the odd week in a garage
getting fixed. It cost less than 10p per passenger-mile overall (and that's with only 2 of us in the
car!). It was even slighlty subsidised by the profit from occasional business mileage.

James

Oh, I suppose I should have said - me and family are in the 40%.

I walk, cycle and bus, partner walks and busses. Toddler walks and busses, with the occasional
leisure trip in a seat on the back of my bike.

Weekly/fortnightly food shopping arrives at our house in the supermarket's van when I do it, or in a
taxi with my partner when she does it.

Mind you, we have hired cars on about 8 occasions in the past three years.

Cheers, Euan Gawnsoft: gawnsoft.co.srgawnsoft.co.srOpen ↗ Symbian/Epoc wiki: html.dnsalias.nethtml.dnsalias.netOpen ↗
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