30s hill repeats...CPs?

PSUcycling said:

...is there a way to eliminate that workout from that graph specifically?...

If you want to remove a workout from a particular graph, just go back in your calendar and double click the offending workout. Redefine it as cross training or XC skiing or some other sport other than cycling. Go into the mean maximal chart, click customize chart, go to the last tab and select valid sports to display on this chart. Make sure you exclude the "dummy" sport that you used to reclassify the problem workout.

-Dave

daveryanwyoming said:

If you want to remove a workout from a particular graph, just go back in your calendar and double click the offending workout. Redefine it as cross training or XC skiing or some other sport other than cycling. Go into the mean maximal chart, click customize chart, go to the last tab and select valid sports to display on this chart. Make sure you exclude the "dummy" sport that you used to reclassify the problem workout.

-Dave

excellent, thank you!

PSUcycling said:

so now my Mean maximal power curve is completely screwed up (as expected).

Why does the workout mess up your MMP Curve?

rr9876 said:

Why does the workout mess up your MMP Curve?

its been talked about quite a few times before, but the short of it is that that algorythm used to compute Normalized power uses a rolling 30sec average, and some how the high variablitly of the 30" on and 30" off, wildly skews NP and your MMP(NP only).

for example. this season my best 20min is around 305w and NP for that effort was around 315w. After doing this 30" on/off workout, it shows my 20min best NP to be above that, although only by a few watts, but I know that There is no way to calculate a 20 min interval from 20x30's. Also, my graph now shows an NP of 325-315 from about 20min to 1+hrs, all calculated from yesterdays workout.

PSUcycling said:

its been talked about quite a few times before, but the short of it is that that algorythm used to compute Normalized power uses a rolling 30sec average, and some how the high variablitly of the 30" on and 30" off, wildly skews NP and your MMP(NP only).

for example. this season my best 20min is around 305w and NP for that effort was around 315w. After doing this 30" on/off workout, it shows my 20min best NP to be above that, although only by a few watts, but I know that There is no way to calculate a 20 min interval from 20x30's. Also, my graph now shows an NP of 325-315 from about 20min to 1+hrs, all calculated from yesterdays workout.

OK, I see. I thought you were talking about a mean maximal *average* power chart.

PSUcycling said:

its been talked about quite a few times before, but the short of it is that that algorythm used to compute Normalized power uses a rolling 30sec average, and some how the high variablitly of the 30" on and 30" off, wildly skews NP and your MMP(NP only).

for example. this season my best 20min is around 305w and NP for that effort was around 315w. After doing this 30" on/off workout, it shows my 20min best NP to be above that, although only by a few watts, but I know that There is no way to calculate a 20 min interval from 20x30's. Also, my graph now shows an NP of 325-315 from about 20min to 1+hrs, all calculated from yesterdays workout.

I use the MMP with AP to sometimes cherry pick data points, but for NP I've got a periodic chart (last 28 days is default, but I can look at a full season if I want) with mean maximal NP for durations of 30, 60, 90, and (only for some people) 120 minutes. Tracking that consistently seems like a good indicator of "form".

What do you use a mean maximal NP curve for?

PSUcycling said:

its been talked about quite a few times before, but the short of it is that that algorythm used to compute Normalized power uses a rolling 30sec average, and some how the high variablitly of the 30" on and 30" off, wildly skews NP and your MMP(NP only).

You mean that it has been speculated (incorrectly, as it turns out) that...

PSUcycling said:

for example. this season my best 20min is around 305w and NP for that effort was around 315w. After doing this 30" on/off workout, it shows my 20min best NP to be above that, although only by a few watts, but I know that There is no way to calculate a 20 min interval from 20x30's. Also, my graph now shows an NP of 325-315 from about 20min to 1+hrs, all calculated from yesterdays workout.

So, what do you consider to be your current functional threshold power?

If you take 95% of your best 20 min of 305 W, then that equals 290 W. A normalized power of 315 W for ~1 h is 108% of that value, which would qualify (by ~10 W) as an algorithm buster. I don't see, though, how this agrees with your conclusion that your normalized mean maximal power chart is now "wildly skewed".

jbvcoaching said:

I've got a periodic chart (last 28 days is default, but I can look at a full season if I want) with mean maximal NP for durations of 30, 60, 90, and (only for some people) 120 minutes. Tracking that consistently seems like a good indicator of "form".

What do you use a mean maximal NP curve for?

Indeed, one fact that people seem to often overlook is that even if the normalized power algorithm is significantly biased (i.e., overestimates more often than underestimates), being able to generate a high normalized power is a good indicator of what some coaches call "repeatability" (i.e., the ability to go really hard over and over and over again).

PSUcycling said:

Also, my graph now shows an NP of 325-315 from about 20min to 1+hrs, all calculated from yesterdays workout.

Seems surprising that ~30min of variable efforts would elevate your NP graph from about 20min out to 1+hrs. Has it been a while since you had any hard, steady efforts in that range? I could probably generate an NP which beat my FTP slightly if I did the routine you mention for an hour, but it seems unlikely that 4 sets of 5 reps with 3' rest between sets (even if followed by 30+min of medium tempo) would beat my 60min max effort AP or NP.

Honestly, it just sounds like you pushed harder during your most recent workout than you have for a while. That's the kind of MMP chart messing-up that I *like* to see. 🙂

acoggan said:

You mean that it has been speculated (incorrectly, as it turns out) that...

So, what do you consider to be your current functional threshold power?

If you take 95% of your best 20 min of 305 W, then that equals 290 W. A normalized power of 315 W for ~1 h is 108% of that value, which would qualify (by ~10 W) as an algorithm buster. I don't see, though, how this agrees with your conclusion that your normalized mean maximal power chart is now "wildly skewed".

now that you said that, i'll have to go back and look more closely. I just noticed a large jump in NP across the board, just from one workout. (i've raced about 6 times since jan., although my FTP is just now starting to come back around...)

I remembered there being discussions along this line before and hadn't read that it had been disproven..

last season my best FTP was 305, i think that now it is already near 305-310...