30 rpm

"gwhite" <gwhite@hocuspocus_ti.com> wrote in message
news:40B782C4.7BE51167@hocuspocus_ti.com...

Quoted message said:

Why do people say going uphill at 30 rpm hurts the knees?
I've gone up steep mountains at 30 rpm and it only seems
to make my legs stronger.

Doesn't it depend on what size gear you're pushing?

-T

"gwhite" <gwhite@hocuspocus_ti.com> schreef in bericht
news:40B782C4.7BE51167@hocuspocus_ti.com...

Quoted message said:

Why do people say going uphill at 30 rpm hurts the knees?
I've gone up steep mountains at 30 rpm and it only seems
to make my legs stronger.

Since Lance is climbing the Alpes at 100 rpm and is winning
the TDF de general idea is that everyone should. That BS.

Lou

On Fri, 28 May 2004 11:19:48 -0700, gwhite

gwhite@hocuspocus_ti.com said:

Why do people say going uphill at 30 rpm hurts the knees?
I've gone up steep mountains at 30 rpm and it only seems to
make my legs stronger.

Dear Gwhite,

As a guess, greater force on the knee joint? Remember, leg
muscles aren't knee joints. Muscles can be strengthened, but
joints (I think) cannot.

Lighter pressure is easier on joints. Consider 30 presses
per knee of force X per minute versus 60 presses of force
X/2 per minute, all through the same range of motion.

Or think of one heave with a three-foot crowbar versus two
heaves with a six-foot crowbar.

Eventually, if RPM drops enough, you can't move the pedal
against the resistance of the huge gear.

Carl Fogel

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In article <40B782C4.7BE51167@hocuspocus_ti.com>, gwhite

gwhite@hocuspocus_ti.com said:

Why do people say going uphill at 30 rpm hurts the knees?

_ Because it hurts their knees when they climb in big gears?

Quoted message said:

I've gone up steep mountains at 30 rpm and it only seems
to make my legs stronger.

_ I did that too when I was 21. A 42/21 was the lowest gear
I needed/had, did lot's of canyon climbs outside Boulder and
Mogul Bismark with that gear. I'm pretty sure I road up Mt.
Washington with a 42/32 or 42/28. If you do it and it
doesn't hurt your knees more power to you...

_ 20 years and a lot of ligament abuse later, 34/27 seems
like a much saner climbing gear... If I climb even a short
hill at low rpms while seated I can feel the pain in my
knees. Climbing standing is much easier on the knees, but I
don't like to climb standing for very long.

_ Booker C. Bense

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In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 28 May 2004 11:19:48 -0700, gwhite

gwhite@hocuspocus_ti.com said:

Why do people say going uphill at 30 rpm hurts the knees?
I've gone up steep mountains at 30 rpm and it only seems
to make my legs stronger.

Dear Gwhite,

As a guess, greater force on the knee joint? Remember, leg
muscles aren't knee joints. Muscles can be strengthened,
but joints (I think) cannot.

_ Ligaments can be strengthened through training. It just
happens on a much slower time scale than muscle. Everything
in your body adapts to stress ( even bone), the trick is to
not train faster than you can heal.

_ Booker C. Bense

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In article <[email hidden]>, Lou Holtman

Quoted message said:

"gwhite" <gwhite@hocuspocus_ti.com> schreef in bericht
news:40B782C4.7BE51167@hocuspocus_ti.com...

Quoted message said:

Why do people say going uphill at 30 rpm hurts the knees?
I've gone up steep mountains at 30 rpm and it only seems
to make my legs stronger.

Since Lance is climbing the Alpes at 100 rpm and is winning
the TDF de general idea is that everyone should. That BS.

_ Spinning to climb is not a new idea. My racing coach was
trying to convince me of it 28 years ago. At 43 my knees
wish I'd paid more attention to him.

_ Booker C. Bense

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On Fri, 28 May 2004 23:32:43 +0000 (UTC), Booker C. Bense
<[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 28 May 2004 11:19:48 -0700, gwhite

gwhite@hocuspocus_ti.com said:

Why do people say going uphill at 30 rpm hurts the knees?
I've gone up steep mountains at 30 rpm and it only seems
to make my legs stronger.

Dear Gwhite,

As a guess, greater force on the knee joint? Remember, leg
muscles aren't knee joints. Muscles can be strengthened,
but joints (I think) cannot.

_ Ligaments can be strengthened through training. It just
happens on a much slower time scale than muscle. Everything
in your body adapts to stress ( even bone), the trick is to
not train faster than you can heal.

_ Booker C. Bense

Dear Booker,

Cartilage?

Carl Fogel

Booker C. Bense said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Why do people say going uphill at 30 rpm hurts the
> knees?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Because it hurts their knees when they climb in big
gears?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've gone up steep mountains at 30 rpm and it only seems
to make my legs stronger.

Quoted message said:

I did that too when I was 21. A 42/21 was the lowest gear
I needed/had, did lot's of canyon climbs outside Boulder
and Mogul Bismark with that gear. I'm pretty sure I road
up Mt. Washington with a 42/32 or 42/28. If you do it and
it doesn't hurt your knees more power to you...

Quoted message said:

20 years and a lot of ligament abuse later, 34/27 seems
like a much saner climbing gear... If I climb even a short
hill at low RPM while seated I can feel the pain in my
knees. Climbing standing is much easier on the knees, but
I don't like to climb standing for very long.

I think the term "ligament abuse" may not be warranted. As I
have explained in this forum often, deep loaded knee bends
are not usual fare for most people because they haven't done
that, practically ever. The fear of overloading the knees is
valid but for people who have ridden bicycles actively from
early youth, this is not an odd exercise. Besides, it's not
the cadence but the torque, so piddling up a hill slowly in
a low gear (at 30 RPM) is not a problem.

I was made aware of that in the US Army that discovered that
their "squat jump" exercise was the cause of more 4F
discharges than anything else. This is a deep knee bend
exercise that is unknown today because it pretty much
simulates pedaling a bicycle at high torque. The most
challenging knee bend effort most people experience is
walking stairs that have a 6" rise in contrast to a 14" rise
for pedals that arises from crank length * 2 + initial knee
articulation.

I keep getting admonishments that "pretty soon your knees
will give out" if you keep riding the way you do. I suppose
those who advise me of that are either new riders who
wouldn't recognize an old bikie and what a 1960's equipped
bicycle says about the rider.

As I just posted in rec.bicycle.rides, rode over the
Sierra's steepest passes with the same gears I've been
riding since olden times 50-46t & 13--24t and I do that at
the highest cadence my aerobic abilities allow. There are
many miles on that equipment and it works for me. In
contrast, many of the high rev folks don't tour on roads
where their gears really make a difference. Many just ride
around in high rev's to be doing the right thing or to look
like the real thing, much like people with Ferraris or air
cooled Porches drive around town in low gear and 5000rpm
because their car needed that, being a racing car at heart.

I think riders can feel when their body is being over
stressed and should respond accordingly. There is no fixed
rule about what cadence should be ridden where.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Booker C. Bense said:

In article <40B782C4.7BE51167@hocuspocus_ti.com>, gwhite

gwhite@hocuspocus_ti.com said:

Why do people say going uphill at 30 rpm hurts the knees?

_ Because it hurts their knees when they climb in
big gears?

Quoted message said:

I've gone up steep mountains at 30 rpm and it only seems
to make my legs stronger.

_ I did that too when I was 21. A 42/21 was the lowest
gear I needed/had, did lot's of canyon climbs outside
Boulder and Mogul Bismark with that gear. I'm pretty sure
I road up Mt. Washington with a 42/32 or 42/28. If you do
it and it doesn't hurt your knees more power to you...

_ 20 years and a lot of ligament abuse later, 34/27 seems
like a much saner climbing gear... If I climb even a short
hill at low rpms while seated I can feel the pain in my
knees. Climbing standing is much easier on the knees, but
I don't like to climb standing for very long.

I am 47 and my knees don't hurt from riding. I can ride 30
rpm on steep climbs to my aerobic limit, which is pretty
fair. My reason for using lower gears up these climbs
(pedaling faster) is not because of my knees. I use lower
gears because I simply enjoy the lower gears more (perhaps I
fatigue less). Still, sometimes I grind up at low cadences
for building strength. I don't see a problem.

gwhite said:

I don't see a problem.

others have written?

Greg

Quoted message said:

for building strength. I don't see a problem.

Knees and other joints can wear in time. Muscles get
stronger, joints dont. If there is wear, it gets worse
over time.

Im glad you are able to grunt up the hills at low cadence,
but that does not mean you should tell others to do it.
Reminds me of a crack head telling others - "It doesnt
bother me - go for it".

gwhite said:

Why do people say going uphill at 30 rpm hurts the knees?
I've gone up steep mountains at 30 rpm and it only seems
to make my legs stronger.

You don't have much choice on a 1 in 4 when your lowest gear
is 42 x 21, unless you can develop 500W.

On Fri, 28 May 2004 18:33:14 -0700, gwhite

gwhite@hocuspocus_ti.com said:

I am 47 and my knees don't hurt from riding. I can ride 30
rpm on steep climbs to my aerobic limit, which is pretty
fair. My reason for using lower gears up these climbs
(pedaling faster) is not because of my knees. I use lower
gears because I simply enjoy the lower gears more (perhaps
I fatigue less). Still, sometimes I grind up at low
cadences for building strength. I don't see a problem.

It's okay. It's just the "one-size-fits-all" crowd telling
you that you must pedal 80 (or 90 or 120) rpm all the time.

I suspect that if you're grinding up at 30 rpm putting lots
of force into it, then you could damage something, but the
same force at another cadence would too. Given reasonably
light force, any cadence is okay.
--
Rick Onanian

On Sat, 29 May 2004 01:59:58 GMT, Dan Brussee <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Im glad you are able to grunt up the hills at low cadence,
but that does not mean you should tell others to do it.
Reminds me of a crack head telling others - "It doesnt
bother me - go for it".

Where did he tell anybody else to do it? He just asked why
he shouldn't.
--
Rick Onanian

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In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 28 May 2004 23:32:43 +0000 (UTC), Booker C. Bense
<[email hidden]-

.edu said:

_ Ligaments can be strengthened through training. It just
happens on a much slower time scale than muscle.
Everything in your body adapts to stress ( even bone), the
trick is to not train faster than you can heal.

_ Booker C. Bense

Dear Booker,

Cartilage?

_ That too can be repaired if very slowly. See all the
research on glucosmime. Think about it, do you know of any
substance that can last through 40 or 50 years of constant
motion without repair? Of course there are things that cause
permanent damage.

_ Booker C. Bense

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In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Booker C. Bense said:

Quoted message said:

>> Why do people say going uphill at 30 rpm hurts the
>> knees?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Because it hurts their knees when they climb in big
> gears?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've gone up steep mountains at 30 rpm and it only seems
to make my legs stronger.

Quoted message said:

I did that too when I was 21. A 42/21 was the lowest gear
I needed/had, did lot's of canyon climbs outside Boulder
and Mogul Bismark with that gear. I'm pretty sure I road
up Mt. Washington with a 42/32 or 42/28. If you do it and
it doesn't hurt your knees more power to you...

Quoted message said:

20 years and a lot of ligament abuse later, 34/27 seems
like a much saner climbing gear... If I climb even a
short hill at low RPM while seated I can feel the pain in
my knees. Climbing standing is much easier on the knees,
but I don't like to climb standing for very long.

I think the term "ligament abuse" may not be warranted. As
I have explained in this forum often, deep loaded knee
bends are not usual fare for most people because they
haven't done that, practically ever.

_ I wasn't being exactly clear, it probably wasn't the
biking that did it, it was the mogul skiing, windsurfing,
trail running, backpacking,etc. While deep loaded knee bends
don't happen at the gym anymore, they are an essential part
of skiing and with the advances in binding technology are
primary cause of serious injury in downhill skiers.

Quoted message said:

I think riders can feel when their body is being over
stressed and should respond accordingly. There is no fixed
rule about what cadence should be ridden where.

_ I wouldn't argue with that at all. If you can crank in low
gears and your knees aren't sore the next day, then there's
probably no long term damage going on. The problem is when
your ego gets in the way of listening to what your body's
telling you. A few days of being stubborn and macho can
cause damage that takes years to recover from.

_ Booker C. Bense

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Dan Brussee <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for building strength. I don't see a problem.

Knees and other joints can wear in time. Muscles get
stronger, joints dont. If there is wear, it gets worse
over time.

Im glad you are able to grunt up the hills at low cadence,
but that does not mean you should tell others to do it.
Reminds me of a crack head telling others - "It doesnt
bother me - go for it".

The thing I don't understand, is how these pros can go up a
mountain at 15mph and 80 rpm, but when a tourist goes up the
same climb at
7.5mph and 40 rpm. they're damaging their knees. Maybe it's
because the tourists are all overweight or packing 50lbs
of luggage, but that would seem to imply that if someone
weren't overweight and didn't have luggage, then they
*could* climb slowly at 40 rpm, and we know that that is
dangerous, so that can't be it. Heck, the pros could be in
the same gear, turning it twice as fast or more, but
they're safe because they're "spinning". I'm kinda
surprised half the peloton doesn't drop out of the Tour
every year with popped ligaments.

JP

Dan Brussee said:

Quoted message said:

for building strength. I don't see a problem.

Quoted message said:

Knees and other joints can wear in time. Muscles get
stronger, joints dont. If there is wear, it gets worse
over time.

While this sounds true, i actually have a friend at UCSD who
studies cartilege growth. It turns out that squishing
cartilege at the right frequency and amount can stimulate
growth at an optimal rate to replace the cartilege. So it is
not _necessarily_ true that joints wear out. It's when you
don't squish them right, then you can get into trouble.

- Don Gillies San Diego, CA

Donald Gillies said:

It turns out that squishing cartilege at the right
frequency and amount can stimulate growth at an optimal
rate to replace the cartilege. So it is not _necessarily_
true that joints wear out. It's when you don't squish them
right, then you can get into trouble.

- Don Gillies San Diego, CA

This is interesting. Where can I find more? Do you know any
website about this topic? My girlfriend has serious knee
cartilege problems and the only solution given by knee
specialists is doing no sport except some cycling (not too
much and not too many hills). Not good at 21 years...

Francesco