30 rpm

"gwhite" <gwhite@hocuspocus_ti.com> wrote in message
news:40B782C4.7BE51167@hocuspocus_ti.com...

Quoted message said:

Why do people say going uphill at 30 rpm hurts the knees? I've gone up
steep mountains at 30 rpm and it only seems to make my legs stronger.

Doesn't it depend on what size gear you're pushing?

-T

"gwhite" <gwhite@hocuspocus_ti.com> schreef in bericht
news:40B782C4.7BE51167@hocuspocus_ti.com...

Quoted message said:

Why do people say going uphill at 30 rpm hurts the knees? I've gone up
steep mountains at 30 rpm and it only seems to make my legs stronger.

Since Lance is climbing the Alpes at 100 rpm and is winning the TDF de
general idea is that everyone should. That BS.

Lou

On Fri, 28 May 2004 11:19:48 -0700, gwhite

gwhite@hocuspocus_ti.com said:

Why do people say going uphill at 30 rpm hurts the knees? I've gone up
steep mountains at 30 rpm and it only seems to make my legs stronger.

Dear Gwhite,

As a guess, greater force on the knee joint? Remember, leg
muscles aren't knee joints. Muscles can be strengthened, but
joints (I think) cannot.

Lighter pressure is easier on joints. Consider 30 presses
per knee of force X per minute versus 60 presses of force
X/2 per minute, all through the same range of motion.

Or think of one heave with a three-foot crowbar versus two
heaves with a six-foot crowbar.

Eventually, if RPM drops enough, you can't move the pedal
against the resistance of the huge gear.

Carl Fogel

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In article <40B782C4.7BE51167@hocuspocus_ti.com>,

gwhite gwhite@hocuspocus_ti.com said:

Why do people say going uphill at 30 rpm hurts the knees?

_ Because it hurts their knees when they climb in big gears?

Quoted message said:

I've gone up
steep mountains at 30 rpm and it only seems to make my legs stronger.

_ I did that too when I was 21. A 42/21 was the lowest gear I
needed/had, did lot's of canyon climbs outside Boulder and Mogul
Bismark with that gear. I'm pretty sure I road up Mt. Washington
with a 42/32 or 42/28. If you do it and it doesn't hurt your
knees more power to you...

_ 20 years and a lot of ligament abuse later, 34/27 seems like
a much saner climbing gear... If I climb even a short hill
at low rpms while seated I can feel the pain in my knees.
Climbing standing is much easier on the knees, but I don't
like to climb standing for very long.

_ Booker C. Bense

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In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 28 May 2004 11:19:48 -0700, gwhite

gwhite@hocuspocus_ti.com said:

Why do people say going uphill at 30 rpm hurts the knees? I've gone up
steep mountains at 30 rpm and it only seems to make my legs stronger.

Dear Gwhite,

As a guess, greater force on the knee joint? Remember, leg
muscles aren't knee joints. Muscles can be strengthened, but
joints (I think) cannot.

_ Ligaments can be strengthened through training. It just happens
on a much slower time scale than muscle. Everything in your
body adapts to stress ( even bone), the trick is to not train
faster than you can heal.

_ Booker C. Bense

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In article <[email hidden]>,

Lou Holtman said:

"gwhite" <gwhite@hocuspocus_ti.com> schreef in bericht
news:40B782C4.7BE51167@hocuspocus_ti.com...

Quoted message said:

Why do people say going uphill at 30 rpm hurts the knees? I've gone up
steep mountains at 30 rpm and it only seems to make my legs stronger.

Since Lance is climbing the Alpes at 100 rpm and is winning the TDF de
general idea is that everyone should. That BS.

_ Spinning to climb is not a new idea. My racing coach was trying
to convince me of it 28 years ago. At 43 my knees wish I'd paid
more attention to him.

_ Booker C. Bense

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On Fri, 28 May 2004 23:32:43 +0000 (UTC), Booker C. Bense
<[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 28 May 2004 11:19:48 -0700, gwhite

gwhite@hocuspocus_ti.com said:

Why do people say going uphill at 30 rpm hurts the knees? I've gone up
steep mountains at 30 rpm and it only seems to make my legs stronger.

Dear Gwhite,

As a guess, greater force on the knee joint? Remember, leg
muscles aren't knee joints. Muscles can be strengthened, but
joints (I think) cannot.

_ Ligaments can be strengthened through training. It just happens
on a much slower time scale than muscle. Everything in your
body adapts to stress ( even bone), the trick is to not train
faster than you can heal.

_ Booker C. Bense

Dear Booker,

Cartilage?

Carl Fogel

Booker C. Bense said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Why do people say going uphill at 30 rpm hurts the knees?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Because it hurts their knees when they climb in big gears?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've gone up steep mountains at 30 rpm and it only seems to make my
legs stronger.

Quoted message said:

I did that too when I was 21. A 42/21 was the lowest gear I
needed/had, did lot's of canyon climbs outside Boulder and Mogul
Bismark with that gear. I'm pretty sure I road up Mt. Washington
with a 42/32 or 42/28. If you do it and it doesn't hurt your knees
more power to you...

Quoted message said:

20 years and a lot of ligament abuse later, 34/27 seems like a much
saner climbing gear... If I climb even a short hill at low RPM
while seated I can feel the pain in my knees. Climbing standing is
much easier on the knees, but I don't like to climb standing for
very long.

I think the term "ligament abuse" may not be warranted. As I have
explained in this forum often, deep loaded knee bends are not usual
fare for most people because they haven't done that, practically ever.
The fear of overloading the knees is valid but for people who have
ridden bicycles actively from early youth, this is not an odd
exercise. Besides, it's not the cadence but the torque, so piddling
up a hill slowly in a low gear (at 30 RPM) is not a problem.

I was made aware of that in the US Army that discovered that their
"squat jump" exercise was the cause of more 4F discharges than
anything else. This is a deep knee bend exercise that is unknown
today because it pretty much simulates pedaling a bicycle at high
torque. The most challenging knee bend effort most people experience
is walking stairs that have a 6" rise in contrast to a 14" rise for
pedals that arises from crank length * 2 + initial knee articulation.

I keep getting admonishments that "pretty soon your knees will give
out" if you keep riding the way you do. I suppose those who advise me
of that are either new riders who wouldn't recognize an old bikie and
what a 1960's equipped bicycle says about the rider.

As I just posted in rec.bicycle.rides, rode over the Sierra's steepest
passes with the same gears I've been riding since olden times 50-46t &
13--24t and I do that at the highest cadence my aerobic abilities
allow. There are many miles on that equipment and it works for me.
In contrast, many of the high rev folks don't tour on roads where
their gears really make a difference. Many just ride around in high
rev's to be doing the right thing or to look like the real thing, much
like people with Ferraris or air cooled Porches drive around town in
low gear and 5000rpm because their car needed that, being a racing car
at heart.

I think riders can feel when their body is being over stressed and
should respond accordingly. There is no fixed rule about what cadence
should be ridden where.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Booker C. Bense said:

In article <40B782C4.7BE51167@hocuspocus_ti.com>,

gwhite gwhite@hocuspocus_ti.com said:

Why do people say going uphill at 30 rpm hurts the knees?

_ Because it hurts their knees when they climb in big gears?

Quoted message said:

I've gone up
steep mountains at 30 rpm and it only seems to make my legs stronger.

_ I did that too when I was 21. A 42/21 was the lowest gear I
needed/had, did lot's of canyon climbs outside Boulder and Mogul
Bismark with that gear. I'm pretty sure I road up Mt. Washington
with a 42/32 or 42/28. If you do it and it doesn't hurt your
knees more power to you...

_ 20 years and a lot of ligament abuse later, 34/27 seems like
a much saner climbing gear... If I climb even a short hill
at low rpms while seated I can feel the pain in my knees.
Climbing standing is much easier on the knees, but I don't
like to climb standing for very long.

I am 47 and my knees don't hurt from riding. I can ride 30 rpm on steep
climbs to my aerobic limit, which is pretty fair. My reason for using
lower gears up these climbs (pedaling faster) is not because of my
knees. I use lower gears because I simply enjoy the lower gears more
(perhaps I fatigue less). Still, sometimes I grind up at low cadences
for building strength. I don't see a problem.

gwhite said:

I don't see a problem.

Because you're an ignorant [censored] that didn't read or can't comprehend what
others have written?

Greg

Quoted message said:

for building strength. I don't see a problem.

Knees and other joints can wear in time. Muscles get stronger, joints
dont. If there is wear, it gets worse over time.

Im glad you are able to grunt up the hills at low cadence, but that
does not mean you should tell others to do it. Reminds me of a crack
head telling others - "It doesnt bother me - go for it".

gwhite said:

Why do people say going uphill at 30 rpm hurts the knees? I've gone up
steep mountains at 30 rpm and it only seems to make my legs stronger.

You don't have much choice on a 1 in 4 when your lowest gear is 42 x 21,
unless you can develop 500W.

On Sat, 29 May 2004 01:59:58 GMT, Dan Brussee <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Im glad you are able to grunt up the hills at low cadence, but that
does not mean you should tell others to do it. Reminds me of a crack
head telling others - "It doesnt bother me - go for it".

Where did he tell anybody else to do it? He just asked why he
shouldn't.
--
Rick Onanian

On Fri, 28 May 2004 18:33:14 -0700, gwhite

gwhite@hocuspocus_ti.com said:

I am 47 and my knees don't hurt from riding. I can ride 30 rpm on steep
climbs to my aerobic limit, which is pretty fair. My reason for using
lower gears up these climbs (pedaling faster) is not because of my
knees. I use lower gears because I simply enjoy the lower gears more
(perhaps I fatigue less). Still, sometimes I grind up at low cadences
for building strength. I don't see a problem.

It's okay. It's just the "one-size-fits-all" crowd telling you that
you must pedal 80 (or 90 or 120) rpm all the time.

I suspect that if you're grinding up at 30 rpm putting lots of force
into it, then you could damage something, but the same force at
another cadence would too. Given reasonably light force, any cadence
is okay.
--
Rick Onanian

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In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 28 May 2004 23:32:43 +0000 (UTC), Booker C. Bense
<[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

_ Ligaments can be strengthened through training. It just happens
on a much slower time scale than muscle. Everything in your
body adapts to stress ( even bone), the trick is to not train
faster than you can heal.

_ Booker C. Bense

Dear Booker,

Cartilage?

_ That too can be repaired if very slowly. See all
the research on glucosmime. Think about it, do you
know of any substance that can last through 40 or
50 years of constant motion without repair? Of
course there are things that cause permanent
damage.

_ Booker C. Bense

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In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Booker C. Bense said:

Quoted message said:

>> Why do people say going uphill at 30 rpm hurts the knees?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Because it hurts their knees when they climb in big gears?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've gone up steep mountains at 30 rpm and it only seems to make my
legs stronger.

Quoted message said:

I did that too when I was 21. A 42/21 was the lowest gear I
needed/had, did lot's of canyon climbs outside Boulder and Mogul
Bismark with that gear. I'm pretty sure I road up Mt. Washington
with a 42/32 or 42/28. If you do it and it doesn't hurt your knees
more power to you...

Quoted message said:

20 years and a lot of ligament abuse later, 34/27 seems like a much
saner climbing gear... If I climb even a short hill at low RPM
while seated I can feel the pain in my knees. Climbing standing is
much easier on the knees, but I don't like to climb standing for
very long.

I think the term "ligament abuse" may not be warranted. As I have
explained in this forum often, deep loaded knee bends are not usual
fare for most people because they haven't done that, practically ever.

_ I wasn't being exactly clear, it probably wasn't the biking
that did it, it was the mogul skiing, windsurfing, trail running,
backpacking,etc. While deep loaded knee bends don't happen at
the gym anymore, they are an essential part of skiing and with
the advances in binding technology are primary cause of serious
injury in downhill skiers.

Quoted message said:

I think riders can feel when their body is being over stressed and
should respond accordingly. There is no fixed rule about what cadence
should be ridden where.

_ I wouldn't argue with that at all. If you can crank in
low gears and your knees aren't sore the next day, then
there's probably no long term damage going on. The problem
is when your ego gets in the way of listening to what your
body's telling you. A few days of being stubborn and macho
can cause damage that takes years to recover from.

_ Booker C. Bense

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Dan Brussee <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for building strength. I don't see a problem.

Knees and other joints can wear in time. Muscles get stronger, joints
dont. If there is wear, it gets worse over time.

Im glad you are able to grunt up the hills at low cadence, but that
does not mean you should tell others to do it. Reminds me of a crack
head telling others - "It doesnt bother me - go for it".

The thing I don't understand, is how these pros can go up a mountain
at 15mph and 80 rpm, but when a tourist goes up the same climb at
7.5mph and 40 rpm. they're damaging their knees. Maybe it's because
the tourists are all overweight or packing 50lbs of luggage, but that
would seem to imply that if someone weren't overweight and didn't have
luggage, then they *could* climb slowly at 40 rpm, and we know that
that is dangerous, so that can't be it. Heck, the pros could be in the
same gear, turning it twice as fast or more, but they're safe because
they're "spinning". I'm kinda surprised half the peloton doesn't drop
out of the Tour every year with popped ligaments.

JP

Dan Brussee said:

Quoted message said:

for building strength. I don't see a problem.

Quoted message said:

Knees and other joints can wear in time. Muscles get stronger, joints
dont. If there is wear, it gets worse over time.

While this sounds true, i actually have a friend at UCSD who studies
cartilege growth. It turns out that squishing cartilege at the right
frequency and amount can stimulate growth at an optimal rate to
replace the cartilege. So it is not _necessarily_ true that joints
wear out. It's when you don't squish them right, then you can get
into trouble.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Donald Gillies said:

It turns out that squishing cartilege at the right
frequency and amount can stimulate growth at an optimal rate to
replace the cartilege. So it is not _necessarily_ true that joints
wear out. It's when you don't squish them right, then you can get
into trouble.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

This is interesting. Where can I find more? Do you know any website
about this topic?
My girlfriend has serious knee cartilege problems and the only solution
given by knee specialists is doing no sport except some cycling (not too
much and not too many hills). Not good at 21 years...

Francesco