2x20 101

RapDaddyo said:

Yep, I agree completely. But, there is an infrequently discussed value to doing the long (40 or even 60 min) intervals. In addition to the adaptation benefit (still significant even if the average power is less than possible at a shorter duration), they serve to help the cyclist understand his/her FT at that duration. In an event of that duration, that (knowledge) turns out to be of huge value. I learned this the hard way when I did a 2hr hillclimb TT. My 2hr FT was significantly less than my 1hr FT and I would have managed my power much more effectively if I had a better estimate of my 2hr FT.

Hi RD,
Just some feedback after reading the thread this evening.
1. The OP specifically asked about 2x20. I agree there are numerous productive ways to hit L4 but a varied approach is likely not best when starting out. FWIW, I seldom do pure 2x20's - but I won't divulge all my training secrets here 😉

2. Re that hillclimb, and perhaps this is a silly question, but did you account for drop in performance with altitude? A typical drop in sustainable power for 2hrs versus 1hr is ~5%. Some slowtwitch folks exhibit even less 'droop' in the Power-Duration curve.

all the best,
rmur

rmur17 said:

Hi RD,
Just some feedback after reading the thread this evening.
1. The OP specifically asked about 2x20. I agree there are numerous productive ways to hit L4 but a varied approach is likely not best when starting out. FWIW, I seldom do pure 2x20's - but I won't divulge all my training secrets here 😉

You're correct, and my comments about the value of the longer duration L4 intervals was a redirection to a broader discussion of the optional ways of getting in quality L4 time.

rmur17 said:

2. Re that hillclimb, and perhaps this is a silly question, but did you account for drop in performance with altitude? A typical drop in sustainable power for 2hrs versus 1hr is ~5%. Some slowtwitch folks exhibit even less 'droop' in the Power-Duration curve.

No, I didn't explicitly account for altitude change in developing my pacing strategy, which was a variable power pacing strategy. Rather, I only accounted for grade changes in arriving at my target power levels for each segment. But, my VP pacing plan fell apart largely because (I think) I overestimated my 2hr FT and didn't have the power I needed at the key segments of the course. It's possible that altitude also played a role, but I'd have to ride the course in reverse (2nd half first, first half second) to get a handle on that. Anyway, I accomplished my primary objective, which was to find out what is needed to deploy a VP pacing strategy on a long and complex (i.e., numerous grade changes) course. The short answer: it ain't easy. The long answer: it is possible and there's a huge payoff if one can do it correctly.

RapDaddyo said:

You're correct, and my comments about the value of the longer duration L4 intervals was a redirection to a broader discussion of the optional ways of getting in quality L4 time.

No, I didn't explicitly account for altitude change in developing my pacing strategy, which was a variable power pacing strategy. Rather, I only accounted for grade changes in arriving at my target power levels for each segment. But, my VP pacing plan fell apart largely because (I think) I overestimated my 2hr FT and didn't have the power I needed at the key segments of the course. It's possible that altitude also played a role, but I'd have to ride the course in reverse (2nd half first, first half second) to get a handle on that. Anyway, I accomplished my primary objective, which was to find out what is needed to deploy a VP pacing strategy on a long and complex (i.e., numerous grade changes) course. The short answer: it ain't easy. The long answer: it is possible and there's a huge payoff if one can do it correctly.

midweekclub.capowerFAQ.htmOpen ↗

here's a link re established drop in power with altitude. I can't remember your hill climb but there must have been thousands of feet of climbing.

3000 -> 5000 ft is about 4% drop per Bassett .. that's significant

3000 -> 7000 ft is about 9% ... definitely significant ...

I've no doubt at all that VP is productive for climbs with definite gradient changes.

regards,
rmur

rmur17 said:

I can't remember your hill climb but there must have been thousands of feet of climbing.

3000 -> 5000 ft is about 4% drop per Bassett .. that's significant

3000 -> 7000 ft is about 9% ... definitely significant ...

It was ~5,500' of elevation change, so definitely significant.

frenchyge said:

5 min rest for me. Spinning very lightly on the trainer while toweling off and drinking heavily.

This one was not lost on me. Keep up the good work.

Rapdaddyo, you have mentioned a few times that as long as the intervals are >10mins you will get the required adaptations. From what I've read here and around the place, the typical intervals times are 8 mins, and 20mins. Is there really a major difference between doing 8min intervals and 10min intervals?

I ask because there is a local hill that is 8-9mins for me, and is the perfect distance from home to have a nice warmup before I start doing repeats. A 20min hill is about an hour ride away, which is hard for me to get to regularly due to time constraints. I'm trying to work out if it's worth the extra ride to do the 20min hill, or just do more repeats on the local hill.

Peka said:

Rapdaddyo, you have mentioned a few times that as long as the intervals are >10mins you will get the required adaptations. From what I've read here and around the place, the typical intervals times are 8 mins, and 20mins. Is there really a major difference between doing 8min intervals and 10min intervals?

I ask because there is a local hill that is 8-9mins for me, and is the perfect distance from home to have a nice warmup before I start doing repeats. A 20min hill is about an hour ride away, which is hard for me to get to regularly due to time constraints. I'm trying to work out if it's worth the extra ride to do the 20min hill, or just do more repeats on the local hill.

Well, I'm not the guru on this subject, so I'll refer you to Andy Coggan's comments about L4 intervals in Table 1 here peakscoachinggroup.compowertrainingchapter.pdfOpen ↗. But, the reality is that all of these lines of demarcation are "fuzzy." I think if I faced your choice I would do the 8-9 min hill most weeks, but at L5 pace (106%-120%FT), and with a recovery ratio of about 1:1. But, I would definitely want to do some 20+ min L4s at least every other week. Also, what precedes the hill? Unless it's downhill, you might be able to get into the L4 range for a couple of minutes before the hill. I can relate to your dilemma. As I said in an earlier post, it's not so easy to find a section of road long enough and with the right grade to do 20 min intervals.

RapDaddyo said:

Well, I'm not the guru on this subject, so I'll refer you to Andy Coggan's comments about L4 intervals in Table 1 here peakscoachinggroup.compowertrainingchapter.pdfOpen ↗. But, the reality is that all of these lines of demarcation are "fuzzy." I think if I faced your choice I would do the 8-9 min hill most weeks, but at L5 pace (106%-120%FT), and with a recovery ratio of about 1:1. But, I would definitely want to do some 20+ min L4s at least every other week. Also, what precedes the hill? Unless it's downhill, you might be able to get into the L4 range for a couple of minutes before the hill. I can relate to your dilemma. As I said in an earlier post, it's not so easy to find a section of road long enough and with the right grade to do 20 min intervals.

Yeah, the fuzzy bit is the difference between 8 & 10 mins 🙂 and judging by perceived effort I've been doing it hovering between L4 & L5. I'm still getting benefits from it though, I'm definitely fitter since I started doing them.

Preceding the hill I could probably get into L4 for a few minutes, but there's a number of traffic lights which could make it difficult, then the hill starts about 100m from the lights where I turn off the main road.

Starting a new job soon, with access to a free company gym in the same building 😎 It has a stationary bike, but I don't know how good it is. Hopefully I can use it to do some 20min intervals.

Peka said:

Yeah, the fuzzy bit is the difference between 8 & 10 mins 🙂 and judging by perceived effort I've been doing it hovering between L4 & L5. I'm still getting benefits from it though, I'm definitely fitter since I started doing them.

Oh, you will definitely get some LT benefit, even though you are doing VO2MAX intervals. In fact, studies have shown that even very short duration intervals (e.g., <1 min) result in LT adaptation. If you're getting in some significant minutes at FT and above, you're going to see improvement. I was limited to L6 intervals for about 3 months a while back due to an injury and I still realized significant improvement in both LT and VO2MAX.

RapDaddyo said:

I was limited to L6 intervals for about 3 months a while back due to an injury

Was that the glute injury? Every time I feel my glutes I remember that someone else posted something along the lines of "oh no, I don't want to do a RapDaddyo and blow a glute" 😄

Peka said:

Was that the glute injury? Every time I feel my glutes I remember that someone else posted something along the lines of "oh no, I don't want to do a RapDaddyo and blow a glute" 😄

Yep, that was the glutes. I couldn't do more than 200w seated, but I was able to do anything I wanted off the saddle. I just couldn't sustain anything longer than a couple of minutes off the saddle, so I just did L6s. In fact, one day I did 47 L6s -- not recommended.

Peka said:

Rapdaddyo, you have mentioned a few times that as long as the intervals are >10mins you will get the required adaptations. From what I've read here and around the place, the typical intervals times are 8 mins, and 20mins. Is there really a major difference between doing 8min intervals and 10min intervals?

I ask because there is a local hill that is 8-9mins for me, and is the perfect distance from home to have a nice warmup before I start doing repeats. A 20min hill is about an hour ride away, which is hard for me to get to regularly due to time constraints. I'm trying to work out if it's worth the extra ride to do the 20min hill, or just do more repeats on the local hill.

If you read the musings on the topica list, its not the micro interval that matters but the amount of work. My recollection is for people with a limited amount of time, 40-60 minutes of hard aerobic efforts gives the maximum benefit for the minimum of workout time. The reason that this time is split into intervals is for practical reasons - most people do not live in an area where they can do 40-60 minutes continuously at isopower safely either due to terrain or traffic and many people have trouble concentrating on their workout output for that long in one block. So one does enough intervals to total the desired amount of work minutes -20x2 or 4x10 or 8x5 with not a whole lot of rest between intervals, and if your race stuff is longer, up the total work time.

i have found a lot of value in the 2x20 routine and i do it as follows, using the programability of my tacx grand excel turbo (i actually relish using the turbo instead of the road for intervals because the accuracy of the workout is phenomnal, the computer is constantly adjusting the resistance to hold the programmed power output as my cadence varies slightly...)

the "TT" power i use is the most i can sustain for 20 mins

- 5 mins recovery power (RP) being 55% of TT power
- 1 min TT power (just to get used to the effort before the real routine starts)
- 4 mins RP
- 20 mins TT
- 10 mins RP
- 20 mins TT
- 5 mins RP

total workout time 1h5min