2x NDS, 3xDS lacing help

Weiwen said:

despite following the instructions in Jobst Brandt's book, I seem to

always

Quoted message said:

end up with pairs of tight and loose spokes. the rim is 28 holes. should I be doing something
different, or did I simply mess up the spoke placement

in

Quoted message said:

the hub or rim?

Hard to tell without seeing the wheel. You should intially start with all spokes engaged an equal
number of turns (but still fairly loose)? Then add tension evenly (1/2 to 1 turn per spoke all
around the wheel) until you get moderate tension. Then true and tension.

Is there a pattern to your "pairs of tight and loose spokes?" Is the wheel round and true? Depending
on the quality of the rim, it's sometimes necessary to live with _slight_ variations in spoke
tension. But before you reach max tension you should attemp to loosen tight spokes and tighten loose
spokes in a way that maintains trueness. It's important to adjust 3-4 spokes at a time when doing
roundness truing.

Here's some good advice from a post by Sheldon Brown last July (Thread: "General 'round-ness'
wheel theory"😉:

"Start with the wheel slightly undertensioned. Go around finding high spots and pulling them in.
Typically in roundness truing (which I'm a bit of a fanatic about) I'll generally either do 3 or 4
spokes at a time, depending on whether the high spot is centered on a spoke or between two.

Do equal amounts of tightening for left/right spokes. Thus, if I'm doing 3 spokes, I'll tighten the
middle one a full turn, the end ones each 1/2 turn.

If I'm doing 4 spokes, I'll tighten both middle spokes one full turn each, the outer spokes
each 1/2 turn.

Maintaining this left/right balance helps keep the wheel from going way out of true laterally as you
pull in the high spots, but the lateral will still likely need some touch up."

See also sheldonbrown.comwheelbuilding.htmlOpen ↗

Art Harris

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Weiwen
despite following the instructions in Jobst Brandt's book, I seem to always end up with pairs of
tight and loose spokes. the rim is 28 holes. should I be doing something different, or did I simply
mess up the spoke placement in the hub or rim?

It sounds like you " simply mess up the spoke placement in the hub or rim"
The color illustration from Sheldon Brown's website should help.
Placement of the second set of spokes at the hub is what I would guess is your issue.

"Arthur Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Is there a pattern to your "pairs of tight and loose spokes?" Is the wheel round and true?
Depending on the quality of the rim, it's sometimes necessary to live with _slight_ variations in
spoke tension. But before

you

Quoted message said:

reach max tension you should attemp to loosen tight spokes and tighten

loose

Quoted message said:

spokes in a way that maintains trueness. It's important to adjust 3-4

spokes

Quoted message said:

at a time when doing roundness truing.

it's 2 spokes tight and 2 loose. I tightened the nipples until 2-3 threads were showing, and the
tight spokes were tight enough to give a tone. the loose ones were flopping around. I did not find
this particularly comforting.

Just adjust your spokes until each one gives about the same pitch when plucked. Then see if the
wheel is mostly true. If it is, finish truing the wheel to tight tolerances. If it is not, your rim
is bad. Make sure your rim can, for the most part, lay on a flat surface and that there are no
obvious flat spots. Rims are never perfect.

Know that spokes are rarely the exact same length. Also, depending on how you build your wheel, some
spokes might extend deeper into the nipple than others.

Dave

Weiwen said:

it's 2 spokes tight and 2 loose. I tightened the nipples until 2-3 threads were showing, and the
tight spokes were tight enough to give a tone. the loose ones were flopping around. I did not find
this particularly comforting.

A total of two loose/two tight spokes in the whole wheel? Or are ALL the spokes loose/tight in
a pattern.

It's very possible that your lacing is incorrect (especially with different cross patterns left
and right).

Otherwise, it sounds like the spokes may be the wrong length ("tight" spokes too short, or
vice versa). When calculating spoke length, you have to take cross pattern and number of
spokes into account.

Art Harris

Quoted message said:

It sounds like you " simply mess up the spoke placement in the hub or rim" The color illustration
from Sheldon Brown's website should help. Placement of the second set of spokes at the hub is what
I would guess is your issue.

Quoted message said:

--

David Ornee, Western Springs, IL USA

Probably so. the rim is mostly flat, yet every pair of spokes is alternately tight and loose. I did
take the cross pattern into account when I used spocalc to get my spoke lengths. so, now that I have
messed up the spoke placement ... can anyone give me some hints on how to un-mess it up? --Weiwen

Weiwen said:

despite following the instructions in Jobst Brandt's book, I seem to always end up with pairs of
tight and loose spokes. the rim is 28 holes. should I be doing something different, or did I
simply mess up the spoke placement in the hub or rim?

With two short followed by two long, the flanges are each correct but not correct in relation to
the other.

Every spoke hole falls between two holes of the opposite flange. When you look at two spokes on
opposite flanges going the same direction, the next one left at the other flange should enter the
rim at the adjacent hole just left. (or right and right as the case may be).

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

check the spoke placement in the hub, for 3x, you have 6 holes between each pair, 2x = 4. the 4 & 6
hole gaps have to span the same segment of the hub. gerd schraner's book is clearer in this regard.

for 28 spokes, 2x both sides is perfectly good.

Weiwen said:

despite following the instructions in Jobst Brandt's book, I seem to always end up with pairs of
tight and loose spokes. the rim is 28 holes. should I be doing something different, or did I
simply mess up the spoke placement in the hub or rim?

Quoted message said:

check the spoke placement in the hub, for 3x, you have 6 holes between each pair, 2x = 4.

oops, 2x = 2. mistake!

Weiwen said:

Despite following the instructions in Jobst Brandt's book, I seem to always end up with pairs of
tight and loose spokes. The rim is 28 holes. Should I be doing something different, or did I
simply mess up the spoke placement in the hub or rim?

The spoking method described in the book should have no effect on different cross patterns. What
you seem to have occurs if you missed the proper position of the first spoke in the second
flange. In this case, if you tightened the tight set of spokes enough to get a tone, your hub is
possibly ruined, because that much tension on half the spokes can twist the central tube of the
hub. Such a twist usually is off center and cannot be straightened. If the hub has an oil hole as
older hubs did, the hole will be a diagonal ellipse with such a twist. If the re is lettering it
would be skewed.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]