2nd-hand track bike - advice needed

hippy said:

(X-POST: aus.bicycle, rec.bicycles.misc)

I spotted this bike for sale and spoke to the owner. I'd like any opinions about such a setup as a
beginner track bike:

Track Bike with 22inch frame (55cm) Brooks saddle ($200AUD new?)

Quoted message said:

Without the trainer and shoes, he wants $500AUD which is about the cost of a new Miche track
groupset these days, I believe. He said the frame is 30 years old but in top condition and really
stiff - but then of course he is going to say that! 🙂

Well, the thirty years old is probably true, if it's 531. I ride such a track bike. The condition of
the bike and the saddle (if you want a Brooks saddle) will matter a lot in terms of its value.

Quoted message said:

55cm is slightly smaller than the 56cm road frame I currently ride - does track geometry differ
vastly from road geometry? Would this be in my region for sizing?

Probably. It used to be standard advice to go about 1cm smaller in a track frame -- but that was in
the days when road frames were typically sized larger than today. You will also have to check out
top tube length and other things to see if it really fits.

Geometry of a track bike of that vintage was steep and tight for the time, which makes it about
standard for road bikes now.

Quoted message said:

It has brand new singles which he said had been raced on once and are quite expensive,

It does depend on how long they have sat in the garage since.

along with Record hubs and even a spare set of wheels

Quoted message said:

which, I assume, take clincher tyres for training rides. I have a frame sitting at home that I was
going to build into a cheap track bike but I just can't get cheap parts for it quick enough so
this looks like the next best thing. It's still cheaper than buying a new track bike for

~$1000AUD.

Well, yes. It will be heavier, too. To compare this to a new track bike, the frame itself will be a
pound to two pounds heavier. It will not be as stiff as a typical aluminum frame you can get now.
The components are good -- if the hubs have been taken care of. Those Campy hubs were beautifully
made. I still have a set, though I don't use them since they are still laced up to tubular rims.

Quoted message said:

So, assuming this bike is in good condition, would you recommend it?

Possibly

Quoted message said:

What would you look for in a second hand track bike?

Frame condition; evidence of crashes or serious repair.

Quoted message said:

What questions should I ask the guy before driving miles away to check it out?

He's probably not going to tell you if he has crashed -- or how badly -- or if a tube has been
replaced. Ask him what brand it is. That can tell you a lot about the initial quality. If it's a
Cinelli or Masi, then at least at one time it was definitely worth something. If it's a post-1972
Legnano, maybe not.

Quoted message said:

What should I look for on it if I do drive miles away to check it out?

Ride it. See how it feels. Is it the type of bike you are looking for? Track bikes are not all
alike. Back then, a sprint bike would have round fork tubes, really beefy lugs, steep angles, and
would be strongly built for the abuse a sprinter would mete out. A pursuit bike would have more
road-like angles and lugs, would be somewhat lighter (by the standards of the day), and might be
more comfortable for road use.

Are you planning to race this?  What event? For a pursuit specialist I can't see getting 30-year old
iron. You give away too much weight penalty, when for a few hundred more you can get something built
for the task. Sprinters are more conservative, and still tend to ride strong, heavier bikes (I've
seen steel bars on some even recently), so that would not be so much of a negative.

If you are just going to ride it, on the road, go for what you like. However, do plan to hang a
brake on the front -- and make sure the crown can be drilled without problems. Mine has a big, thick
Nervex crown which is vastly overengineered; drilling that was no problem.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach a _`\(,_ | conclusion. --
George Bernard Shaw (_)/ (_) |

"hippy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

<lots of good stuff about a lovely sounding track bike>

For $500, how far wrong can you go? Even if the frame is complete junk, I'm sure it'd have $500
worth of parts on it.

Is it actually possible to have too many bikes?

Regards,

Suzy

PS: If you do decide you don't want it, please let me know the details of the seller so I
can buy it 🙂

"David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

sized larger than today. You will also have to check out top tube

length

Quoted message said:

and other things to see if it really fits.

How much adjustment could I expect from a track stem in terms of fore/aft movement, if the top tube
length wasn't optimal?

Quoted message said:

Well, yes. It will be heavier, too. To compare this to a new track

bike,

Quoted message said:

the frame itself will be a pound to two pounds heavier. It will not

be as

Quoted message said:

stiff as a typical aluminum frame you can get now. The components are

Does weight really matter that much on a track bike? Especially one used by a total track novice?

Quoted message said:

He's probably not going to tell you if he has crashed -- or how

badly --

Quoted message said:

or if a tube has been replaced. Ask him what brand it is.

I did ask about brand and he didn't know, so I guess he bought it second hand as well. It's probably
had 20 coats of paint in its 30 year life. If I do go and have a look at it, I'll check for any
distictive markings. Actually if I did drive to look at it I'd probably just buy it :-)

Quoted message said:

you a lot about the initial quality. If it's a Cinelli or Masi, then

at

Quoted message said:

least at one time it was definitely worth something. If it's a

post-1972

Quoted message said:

Legnano, maybe not.

Other than paint and stickers, is there any way to tell what brand it could be?

Quoted message said:

Are you planning to race this? What event? For a pursuit specialist I can't see getting 30-year
old iron. You give away too much weight penalty, when for a few hundred more you can get something
built for

the

Quoted message said:

task. Sprinters are more conservative, and still tend to ride strong, heavier bikes (I've seen
steel bars on some even recently), so that

would

Quoted message said:

not be so much of a negative.

Well, I want to give track racing a shot. It's difficult/impossible for me to arrive early enough to
use club bikes and I wanted to avoid spending $1k on a new one. As for types of events, I have no
idea. I doubt I will be very competitive starting out anyway.

Quoted message said:

If you are just going to ride it, on the road, go for what you like. However, do plan to hang a
brake on the front -- and make sure the

crown

Quoted message said:

can be drilled without problems. Mine has a big, thick Nervex crown

which

Quoted message said:

is vastly overengineered; drilling that was no problem.

That is a slight problem - I would like to try fixed-gear on the road but track bikes have no
brakes. I will have to check out the crown as you say. What are the chances of fitting a different
fork to it for road use?

Thanks muchly, hippy

"Suzy Jackson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

For $500, how far wrong can you go? Even if the frame is complete

junk, I'm

Quoted message said:

sure it'd have $500 worth of parts on it.

Yeah, well that's what I was thinking. It does sound to me like a pretty good option - but I don't
know anything about track bikes, hence this post.

Quoted message said:

Is it actually possible to have too many bikes?

Well, I have 7 at the moment (after getting rid of the kiddy bike) and I am quite low on space in my
unit with all my other [censored]... But I'll always find room for another bike :-)

Quoted message said:

PS: If you do decide you don't want it, please let me know the

details of

Quoted message said:

the seller so I can buy it 🙂

I will do that.

hippy

Just a general comment: don't buy a track bike from someone who says they've never crashed it. Everyone has had a few big stacks on the track, but a decent frame takes the abuse anyway.

I wouldn't spend too much on it until you're hooked. If you buy second hand you don;t usually lose much if you decide not to race after all. (I'm only saying this becuase I've seen people who race track once, get spooked and never come back).

"Shabby" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Just a general comment: don't buy a track bike from someone who says they've never crashed it.
Everyone has had a few big stacks on the track, but a decent frame takes the abuse anyway.

Well if it is in good nick and it's 30 years old it's doing ok :-)

Quoted message said:

I wouldn't spend too much on it until you're hooked. If you buy second hand you don;t usually lose
much if you decide not to race after all.

I haven't seen anything except frames for less than $500 so it does sound like a good deal to me. I
already want it, but I wanted to hear of any issues before shelling out the dollars...

Quoted message said:

(I'm only saying this becuase I've seen people who race track once,

get

Quoted message said:

spooked and never come back).

Yeah, that'll be me.. no doubt I lose it over the banking and end up impalled on a still rotating
crank... sounds like my style. :-P

hippy

hippy said:

"David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

sized larger than today. You will also have to check out top tube

length

Quoted message said:

and other things to see if it really fits.

How much adjustment could I expect from a track stem in terms of fore/aft movement, if the top
tube length wasn't optimal?

Huh? You might mean one of two things here.

1) How many other "track stems" are available, and in what lengths. The answer to that is that there
is not really a "track stem", any good stem will do. Hard core sprinters may want something
really beefy, but for most of us, there is no problem. Now, you mentioned Cinelli bars. You need
a stem that matches the Cinelli 26.4mm diameter. That is not easy to find these days, but some do
exist. You can also get new bars for a reasonable price and use commonly-available stems.

2) There are a few _adjustable_ stems out there, including some commonly used on track bikes. Major
Taylor invented an early adjustable stem. Maybe this bike has one? If so, typically they have
quite a bit of adjustment.

Quoted message said:

Does weight really matter that much on a track bike? Especially one used by a total track novice?

No, not really. As a bike to get you into the sport, it could be just fine. If it's in good
condition it'll get a lot of appreciative attention.

Quoted message said:

Actually if I did drive to look at it I'd probably just buy it :-)

I probably would, too.

Quoted message said:

Other than paint and stickers, is there any way to tell what brand it could be?

Sure, within reason. All three of the brands I mentioned are pretty distincitive. Lug design is key
to determining brand for many frames. But a lot of good frames used lugs like Nervex, so it would be
hard to tell one of those from another -- and it wouldn't matter much, since those would all be
pretty similar -- and good quality.

Quoted message said:

That is a slight problem - I would like to try fixed-gear on the road but track bikes have no
brakes. I will have to check out the crown as you say. What are the chances of fitting a different
fork to it for road use?

Pretty good, actually. Modern forks tend to be 700c with tight clearances and short rake, quite
similar to track forks of the 70s in size and rake. The crown height might be a bit more than this
old one, but probably not enough to matter. But swapping out a fork would be tedius if you are going
to use a separate fork for the road. You can, of course, use a new fork on the track and even save a
bit of weight. On the other hand, a good fork might cost what this bike costs.

I drilled a hole in my fork crown 30 years ago, and it hasn't broken yet. A pursuit bike might have
been a different story, though.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | What is objectionable, and what is dangerous about extremists is _`\(,_ | not that they are
extreme, but that they are intolerant. (_)/ (_) | --Robert F. Kennedy

"David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How much adjustment could I expect from a track stem in terms of

fore/aft

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

movement, if the top tube length wasn't optimal?

Huh? You might mean one of two things here.

1) How many other "track stems" are available, and in what lengths.

Yeah, that was what I meant.

Quoted message said:

2) There are a few _adjustable_ stems out there, including some

Nope, not adjustable.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Actually if I did drive to look at it I'd probably just buy it :-)

I probably would, too.

You're supposed to talk me out of it ;-)

Quoted message said:

use a new fork on the track and even save a bit of weight. On the

other

Quoted message said:

hand, a good fork might cost what this bike costs. I drilled a hole in my fork crown 30 years ago,
and it hasn't broken

yet.

Quoted message said:

A pursuit bike might have been a different story, though.

I think I will just have a look at it and decide on a course of action from there. I might see how
computer literate he is - he may be able to email me some pictures of it?

Thanks again, hippy

i'd buy it so long as the frame is still straight. a slightly smaller frame on the tarck is ok.
"David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

hippy said:

(X-POST: aus.bicycle, rec.bicycles.misc)

I spotted this bike for sale and spoke to the owner. I'd like any

opinions

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

about such a setup as a beginner track bike:

Track Bike with 22inch frame (55cm) Brooks saddle ($200AUD new?)

Quoted message said:

Without the trainer and shoes, he wants $500AUD which is about the cost

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a new Miche track groupset these days, I believe. He said the frame is 30 years old but in top
condition and really

stiff -

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but then of course he is going to say that! 🙂

Well, the thirty years old is probably true, if it's 531. I ride such a track bike. The condition
of the bike and the saddle (if you want a Brooks saddle) will matter a lot in terms of its value.

Quoted message said:

55cm is slightly smaller than the 56cm road frame I currently ride -

does

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

track geometry differ vastly from road geometry? Would this be in my region for sizing?

Probably. It used to be standard advice to go about 1cm smaller in a track frame -- but that was
in the days when road frames were typically sized larger than today. You will also have to check
out top tube length and other things to see if it really fits.

Geometry of a track bike of that vintage was steep and tight for the time,

which

Quoted message said:

makes it about standard for road bikes now.

Quoted message said:

It has brand new singles which he said had been raced on once and are quite expensive,

It does depend on how long they have sat in the garage since.

along with Record hubs and even a spare set of wheels

Quoted message said:

which, I assume, take clincher tyres for training rides. I have a frame sitting at home that I
was going to build into a cheap track bike but I just can't get cheap parts for it quick enough
so this looks like the

next

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

best thing. It's still cheaper than buying a new track bike for

~$1000AUD.

Well, yes. It will be heavier, too. To compare this to a new track bike, the frame itself will be
a pound to two pounds heavier. It will not be as stiff as a typical aluminum frame you can get
now. The components are good -- if the hubs have been taken care of. Those Campy hubs were
beautifully made. I still have a set, though I don't use them since they are still laced up to
tubular rims.

Quoted message said:

So, assuming this bike is in good condition, would you recommend it?

Possibly

Quoted message said:

What would you look for in a second hand track bike?

Frame condition; evidence of crashes or serious repair.

Quoted message said:

What questions should I ask the guy before driving miles away to check

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

out?

He's probably not going to tell you if he has crashed -- or how badly -- or if a tube has been
replaced. Ask him what brand it is. That can tell you a lot about the initial quality. If it's a
Cinelli or Masi, then at least at one time it was definitely worth something. If it's a post-1972
Legnano, maybe not.

Quoted message said:

What should I look for on it if I do drive miles away to check it out?

Ride it. See how it feels. Is it the type of bike you are looking for? Track bikes are not all
alike. Back then, a sprint bike would have round fork tubes, really beefy lugs, steep angles, and
would be strongly built for the abuse a sprinter would mete out. A pursuit bike would have more
road-like angles and lugs, would be somewhat lighter (by the standards of the day), and might be
more comfortable for road use.

Are you planning to race this? What event? For a pursuit specialist I can't see getting 30-year
old iron. You give away too much weight penalty, when for a few hundred more you can get something
built for the task. Sprinters are more conservative, and still tend to ride strong, heavier bikes
(I've seen steel bars on some even recently), so that would not be so much of a negative.

If you are just going to ride it, on the road, go for what you like. However, do plan to hang a
brake on the front -- and make sure the crown can be drilled without problems. Mine has a big,
thick Nervex crown which is vastly overengineered; drilling that was no problem.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach a _`\(,_ | conclusion. --
George Bernard Shaw (_)/ (_) |

"hippy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Track Bike with 22inch frame (55cm) Brooks saddle ($200AUD new?) Reynolds 351 tubing (I assume he
means 531?) extra wheels for training, Campag record hubs ($400AUD new) Conti singles (used once)
Look clipless pedals Cinelli alu bar/stem Sugino cranks 6 chainrings

Well thanks everyone and sorry Suzy J but I bought this nice little ride tonight! :-) Another bike
for me yay! Another bike for me yay!

I tell you what though... I've got some SERIOUS learning to do with that fixed gear!!! It's totally
freaky.. can't corner like normal, freak coz I can't grab my brakes for a trackstand like normal,
can't trackstand pretty much at all on this compared to my freewheel fitted bikes... No brakes makes
stopping VERY difficult - I mean sure, you can slow down with back pressure (which in itself feels
weird) but you can't just STOP like you would with brakes. Scary! The bike itself appears to be in
top condition as the owner said. Came with a bunch of rings, some cogs, tools, spare wheels.. uh
everything listed above :-) It's blue with yellow Gibson stickers, yellow bar tape. I'll get some
photos on the web soon but until then, any suggestions on the best way to learn these things? I
don't think I will be able to fit brakes to the fork crown so I'm not going to be heading out on the
road any time soon.. is a velodrome my only other option? Suggested starter gear? Should I go for
the lowest or not? It has 49/16 on it at the moment. The lowest would be a 45/17 combo. Yeah,
totally freaky experience not being able to back pedal - I must level out the cranks ALL the time
with a freewheel!

stay tuned... hippy

In rec.bicycles.misc hippy <[email hidden]> wrote:
: Yeah, totally freaky experience not being able to back pedal - I must level out the cranks ALL the
: time with a freewheel!

one nice thing about having a front brake. at a stop-sign or whatever hit the front brake push
forward on the brake hoods to bring the rear wheel off the ground and spin the crank into position.
works great.

you really need a brake, though. my only bike for nearly 5 years was a trackbike. the transition
wasn't soooo bad. the one thing i hadn't thought about was unclipping. i unclip my left foot first
and the first few times i came to a stop with my left foot high (not normally a problem with a
freewheel) i was unable to get it out and fell over.

learned me quick that did.

the other fixed gear specific weirdness .. cars think pedaling means going. if they see you pedaling
they don't think you're braking. buses would honk at me repeatedly because they didn't think i was
stopping for them.

and, of course it ain't going up hills that hurts, it's going down. rollers, ice-biking and going
down hills at 30-40mph with a 72" gear.

good luck ..
--
david reuteler [email hidden]

"hippy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Well thanks everyone and sorry Suzy J but I

Not to worry, I've been talking to Sheldon, and have ordered some bits from hit to turn my old roady
into a fixie.

Quoted message said:

I don't think I will be able to fit brakes to the fork crown so I'm not going to be heading out on
the road any time soon.. is a velodrome my only other option? Suggested starter gear? Should I go
for the lowest or not? It has 49/16 on it at the moment. The lowest would be a 45/17 combo.

You might just be able to ride around deserted carparks or something, but I imagine that'd get old
real quick. Forks are cheap. If you buy a road fork for it, you can bung a caliper on that. Even
better is that the road fork will have a bit more rake that the track fork, so will make it a little
less of a handful on the road.

Congrats.

Regards,

Suzy

hippy said:

I tell you what though... I've got some SERIOUS learning to do with that fixed gear!!! It's
totally freaky.. can't corner like normal,

You'll get used to it.

Quoted message said:

freak coz I can't grab my brakes for a trackstand like normal, can't trackstand pretty much at all
on this compared to my freewheel fitted bikes...

The only bike I can decently trackstand on is my fixed gear. There is a reason they call it a track
stand. Use your pedals, not your brakes.

No brakes

Quoted message said:

makes stopping VERY difficult - I mean sure, you can slow down with back pressure (which in itself
feels weird) but you can't just STOP like you would with brakes. Scary!

If you ride on roads, get brakes.

Quoted message said:

the best way to learn these things? I don't think I will be able to fit brakes to the fork
crown so I'm not going to be heading out on the road any time soon.. is a velodrome my only
other option?

It would be. If you don't put brakes on it, a velodrome is the only safe place. But if you are
contemplating track racing, there is a velodrome near you, right?

Quoted message said:

Suggested starter gear? Should I go for the lowest or not? It has 49/16 on it at the moment. The
lowest would be a 45/17 combo.

If you are on the track, then the 49/16 is not bad. I used to use a 48/15 most of the time, maybe a
bit larger for pursuits -- not that I did well at those.

Quoted message said:

Yeah, totally freaky experience not being able to back pedal - I must level out the cranks ALL the
time with a freewheel!

Soon you'll forget you can freewheel when you are on your road bike.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not _`\(,_ | certain, and as
far as they are certain, they do not refer to (_)/ (_) | reality. -- Albert Einstein

Suzy Jackson said:

Forks are cheap. If you buy a road fork for it, you can bung a caliper on that. Even better is
that the road fork will have a bit more rake that the track fork, so will make it a little less of
a handful on the road.

More rake (offset) means less trail, means more of a handful, all else being equal. The road fork
will probably have slightly longer blades though, decreasing the head angle a touch.

James Thomson

When I was a kid (bloody long time ago) I used to ride a track bike on the raod. To stop quickly you
unclip your right foot & put it on the top ofthe back wheel & apply pressure. You usually only make
the mistake of putting your foot in the spokes once :-)

John L.

Suzy Jackson said:

"hippy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Well thanks everyone and sorry Suzy J but I

Not to worry, I've been talking to Sheldon, and have ordered some bits from hit to turn my old
roady into a fixie.

Quoted message said:

I don't think I will be able to fit brakes to the fork crown so I'm not going to be heading out
on the road any time soon.. is a velodrome my only other option? Suggested starter gear? Should I
go for the lowest or not? It has 49/16 on it at the moment. The lowest would be a 45/17 combo.

You might just be able to ride around deserted carparks or something, but I imagine that'd get old
real quick. Forks are cheap. If you buy a road fork for it, you can bung a caliper on that. Even
better is that the road fork will have a bit more rake that the track fork, so will make it a
little less of a handful on the road.

Congrats.

Regards,

Suzy

John L said:

When I was a kid (bloody long time ago) I used to ride a track bike on the raod. To stop quickly
you unclip your right foot & put it on the top ofthe back wheel & apply pressure. You usually only
make the mistake of putting your foot in the spokes once :-)

How about the mistake of trying that with the front wheel?

<G>

Quoted message said:

John L.

--
Rick Onanian

James Thomson said:

More rake (offset) means less trail, means more of a handful, all else being equal. The road fork
will probably have slightly longer blades though, decreasing the head angle a touch.

Probably not. The standard now for road bike clearances is close to the standard for track bike
clearances 30 years ago. I've owned two such bikes (still have one) and on the first one the
clearances were larger than my current road fork. Rake may be a bit less on the track fork, but
probably is 40mm (road forks vary from 40 to 45 IIRC).

--

David L. Johnson

__o | the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. _`\(,_ | That is easy. All
you have to do is tell them they are being (_)/ (_) | attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for
lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any <country. --
Hermann Goering

"David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The only bike I can decently trackstand on is my fixed gear. There is a reason they call it a
track stand. Use your pedals, not your brakes.

Now that I think about it, I only use the brakes to stop at lights and then trackstand without
touching them. I think it must be the fact that gear is higher and the fixed-gear moves backwards
forcefully rather than just rolling back. The fact that I can't spin back the cranks to level out
also causes me a bit of grief.. early days though, early days.

Quoted message said:

It would be. If you don't put brakes on it, a velodrome is the only safe place. But if you are
contemplating track racing, there is a velodrome near you, right?

Yep, went there yesterday. Not as far as I thought - 20min by (urgh) car.

Quoted message said:

Soon you'll forget you can freewheel when you are on your road bike.

Cool 🙂

hippy

hippy said:

(X-POST: aus.bicycle, rec.bicycles.misc)

I spotted this bike for sale and spoke to the owner. I'd like any opinions about such a setup as a
beginner track bike:

<snip>

Hey hippy,

There is a brief section on track riding here:

bikeschool.com.autrainingtips.htmlOpen ↗

HTH,

&roo