2013 Carbon Wheels

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by mtc268 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]
...Simple question, does anyone have experience of the new generation of carbon clinchers? If so, how's the braking and can you compare to earlier models?

That's going to be a tough thing to get a hand on based on buyer experiences. If someone bought even the worst thin sidewall carbon clincher but didn't happen to overheat it on a long technical braking descent (yet) then they'll likely love their wheels and you don't really learn a lot from their feedback.

But FWIW, the word on the street is that the latest Enve and Zipp Firecrest rims are pretty good with heat dissipation and their flared brake track shape helps with that as well as helping them from an aero standpoint. I'd also take a good look at the 2013 Boyd full carbon clinchers which borrowed heavily from the blunt shaped Zipp concepts for their own proprietary molds at least in the 46mm and 90mm sizes, the 60mm leans towards a more conventional toroidal cross section.

If you mostly ride in dry conditions and don't have a lot of long technical descents or ride too many big Gran Fondo style events where crowds on the descents can force a lot of braking in places where you'd normally let it roll then you'll probably be real happy with some of the newer carbon clincher rims. But if that's not the case and you'll ride in the wet much or be forced to do a lot of braking for whatever reason on long descents then it may not be the best choice even if the newer designs are better than what was out a few years ago.

I was considering the Boyd's earlier this year for race wheels but given how often we race in the rain and I do like big mountain descents I went with some HED Jet 4 C2 wheels and absolutely love them as a very fast wheelset that's real versatile and I don't have to even think about wet weather performance or overheating issues. Sure that peace of mind comes at the price of a couple of hundred grams but these are some of the fastest wheels I've ever owned and that includes a set of 1100 gram Lew tubulars that are hanging in the shop and haven't seen any race duty this year because I'm digging the HED Jet's so much. IOW, weight isn't everything so don't get too hung up on full carbon from that perspective.

-Dave

I almost went the exact same path as Dave. I started off looking at full carbon clinchers from Boyd (by the way has new wheel molds this year) and was really close to buying a set, but I just couldn't get past the whole braking surface thought. I looked at a lot of rims stating how they enhanced the braking surface and then talking to a friend that was doing a lot of training and descending in the mountains with Zipp FC 404's and him saying that he could not get used to it (of course that is just one guy's opinion, but a lot of their training was early morning in the mountains the rims would get damp). I ended up looking to alloy rims with carbon fairings. I looked seriously at the Hed Jet 6 and then started looking at FLO 60's simply for budget reasons. Otherwise I would have purchased the Jet 6 wheels. The FLO 60's use a toroidal shape like the 404 FC rim and have a 23mm cross section.

Like Dave said mine may weigh a little more than my friend's Zipp FC 404's, but I paid a 1/3 of the price so if I have a serious crash I not be at the same loss and with braking on an finely milled aluminum surface I am not that concerned about using them in wet conditions. I can also swap them to other bikes that I have that use regular brake pads.

mtc, The question you ask is the same ones that I was seeking answers last year. I am really happy and have peace of mind going with a aluminum w/carbon fairing type of wheel. I have seen some improvement with these wheels based on power output on the same course and conditions with an improvement of speed and lower power output to achieve that speed. Not a scientific study, but there seems to be an improvement using the same bike, same type of tires, same tire pressure and similar weather conditions.

Thanks, both these responses seem to be exactly like I am thinking. I would like the carbon clinchers but the roads can be gritty and wet here so it might not be the best option. I was considering the new Mavic Cosmic Carbone 40 C or Easton EC90 SL (lots of negative reviews but none since 2011ish).

On the aluminium with carbon rim I was considering the Easton EC70 SL, Mavic Cosmic Carbone SLE or Fulcrum Red Wind XLR. I've even considered the Zipp 101s as an option.

I think you are both right, the peace of mind that comes with the aluminium braking surface is most important. Now just to decide which option to go for, still not easy!

I have yet to see a bad review on the Hed Jet series if they fit in your budget.

When I finally settled on the type of wheel I had these on my consider list.

HED Jet - can be purchased through various dealers, but just a little bit more in cost. Very solid reputation though.
FLO - direct orders that are done periodically through a sign up and then order the day they open up a group order
Real Design - did not like the logo and it has a clear coat over the logo so it cannot be removed.

I have a friend that purchased Bontrager that are very similar to my FLO wheels in shape and construction and about the same weight.

Below are the FLO 60's on my TT bike. It comes with a black anodized braking surface, but that black wears off fairly fast leaving the typical aluminum look. I am not too bothered by this, but some are.

[IMG]cyclingforums.com1000Open ↗[/IMG]

I'd suggest checking out some of the newer wide rims whether you go full carbon or carbon-alloy wheels. I'm really impressed with my HED JET C2 wheels, really nice ride and very fast. So maybe one of the HED wheelsets or the FLOs or something else in a wide hybrid wheel.

The ability to run fast rolling tires at relatively low and comfortable tire pressures and what that does for fast descending and cornering wet or dry is pretty nice. I'm blown away how fast these wheels are with 23c tires pumped up to 90-100 psi for wet and dry conditions respectively (at my current 160 pound weight). When tested on my rollers they roll as well at those pressures as my previous narrow rims at 120 psi and the ride and cornering is much better at the reduced tire pressure.

-Dave

I'm not sure if the FLO's are available where I am (UK) and they are a bit deeper than I want. I'm hoping to get something in the 38-50mm bracket at around 1600kg, these will be lighter and more aerodynamic than my current set (DT Swiss R1800). I know the 101s sit outside this bracket but they are my all aluminium alternative. The Easton EA70 SL are my favourites for looks but they still have the narrower 20mm rather than 23mm which most manufacturers seem to be moving towards.

You both are recommending the HEDs so I will look into them. In all honesty, the only reason I haven't looked at them in any depth is I dislike the HED logo!

Thanks.

I agree with Dave on the wider rim and now that I have been riding on 23's tucked in aero screaming down descents with a whole lot more confidence that in the past. So much so that I have been thinking about sending my Kinlin PT hub wheel to wheelbuilder and have them relace it to a HED Belgium C2 and have them build me the same for the front.

When I purchased the FLO's I noticed the 23mm section and just thought, "oh that's cool." I had no idea just that extra little bit of width would make my bike feel that much more stable on fast descents. I had a 40 mph crash in 07 that did a fair amount of damage to me and the equipment so I am a bit more skittish descending than probably most are so it has been nice to start getting some of that confidence back.

Sold on the 23mm width. I was considering this option already. What mainstream manufacturers are using it at the moment? I can only think of HED and Zipp off the top of my head.

Bontrager Aura 5 http://bontrager.com/model/09776

Yes, I've looked at these. How would you rate them in comparison to the HED Jet 4 FR?

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by mtc268 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Yes, I've looked at these. How would you rate them in comparison to the HED Jet 4 FR?

I'm racing the JET 4s but have never ridden the Aura 5s so I can only do paper comparisons. But from the published data:

JET 4 C2
- lighter at 1643 grams per set (don't know about skewers, rim strips and such)
- newer bullet shaped design
- more expensive at $1900 MSRP
- rider weight limits
- shallower aero section at 46mm

Aura 5
- a tad heavier at 1740 grams per set (again don't know their weighing conventions)
- I think these also use a newer blunt nosed cross section but it's not clear from the Bontrager web site
- less expensive at roughly $1200 MSRP
- no rider weight limits
- a bit deeper at 50mm depth

I'd guess that the HED FR hubs are a bit nicer but I'd also guess that both are similar in terms of aero and handling properties but the Bontrager likely has a small edge in this department. For heavier riders or folks hard on their gear the lack of weight limits on the Bontrager is a nice plus and of course $700 price savings is pretty nice.

They're close enough on paper that I wouldn't hesitate to buy either one if you can find it at a good price. A hundred grams of weight difference is in the noise and you get a bit deeper rim for that extra weight and save a bunch of cash in the process.

Tough call but I'd look to see what you can find and at what prices and go with the better deal. I doubt anyone outside a wind tunnel could tell you which is actually faster as they're really close in design.

-Dave

daveryanwyoming said:

- I think these also use a newer blunt nosed cross section but it's not clear from the Bontrager web site

Yes, they do.

Good comparison Dave, some things to consider.

Found a website that gives a good list of (2012) wheel widths, scroll down: http://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Implications_of_Rim_Width_2803.html

I think I have decided on getting the 2013 HED Jet 4 FRs. Could anyone that has used them tell me how stiff they are? We have a lot of very short and steep hills here so wondering how they would perform on these.

Thanks!

I race on a set of HED JET 4 C2 FR. I love them and yeah we've got plenty of short steep out of the saddle hills. That said I've never really had problems with my wheels being overly flexy on climbs, don't know if that's how I climb or the way I set my brakes but that's just not something I've struggled with and have had a lot of wheelsets that others have complained about like my older American Classic 420s.

But these wheels are very fast, corner and descend great and roll fast with surprisingly low pressures compared to more traditional 19mm wide rims. I'm sold on the wide rim thing and love the way these feel in fast crit corners and on twisty descents.

You'll probably have to try a pair or get feedback from someone who's had problems with flexy wheels before to answer your original question but I'm totally sold on these wheels to the point where my perfectly good Lew tubulars are just hanging in the shop as I just like these so much I'm not inclined to race those much lighter wheels of nearly identical depth.

-Dave

As know the major issue with carbon rim is dissipating heat, and some manufacturer are using heatresisting resin on the brake surface, they claimed it can stand 200-220 degree, i have purchased some clincher wheels from Asia, the brakes works great when i ride descent, it holds up well, below is what they claim for rim braking tech, hope it helps.

http://www.speedercycling.com/Rims-Braking-Tech_15_d15

mybike88 said:

I support this view：You both are recommending the HEDs so I will look into them. In all honesty, the only reason I haven't looked at them in any depth is I dislike the HED logo!  You can refer to some products of this company ，giant new energy technology, www.giantnew.com  www.wheelsnew.com  carbon wheels,they have 3-Spoke Carbon Wheel ,Carbon Wheels With Alloy Braking Surface Clinche,I think it is new Items,what do u think ??

Oh how we long for the day when spammers no longer walk the Earth. Why should anyone look at the wheels your spamming about when you present yourself with such a lame set of lies?

A quick update on this. I went for the HED Jet4 FRs. Very happy with my purchase, I have only ever ridden mid-level wheels before and they certainly feel different. I'm not going to pretend they have improved my performance because I am not at a level I can notice those small increments. They certainly seem to require less effort to maintain momentum at speeds over 32km and are quite stiff for out of the saddle efforts and climbs. I did experience some brake rub initially but I run my pads very close to the rim and have changed this. Braking seems to be poor but I imagine this is down to the pads (Shimano 105/ultegra/dura-ace stock pads), although I didn't notice this on my past set of wheels. I will be changing to Swissstop once my currents pads run out. The wheels make a very satisfying noise at all speeds.

My only disappointment was I would have preferred black HED logos instead of the white, I requested this on purchase but the additional cost was £15 (22USD) per sticker. Given there are 8 stickers between the two wheels I chose to stick with the white logos. I don't understand why a choice cannot be offered on purchase as I cannot see how a different colour sticker costs HED £15, especially when a considerate sum is being spent on the wheels in the first place.

All in all a good choice. Thanks for the advice.

"You can refer to some products of this company ，giant new energy technology, www.giantnew.com"

Thanks, man! I was looking for a new beach umbrella rack!