2009 Tour a sham?

Are you Carlos Sastre?

Sastre bites. The Spanish climbing sensation getting schooled on Cat 1s by Wiggins?!?

ya, it makes no sense. thats why they call him Mr. Clean

zander1983 said:

ya, it makes no sense. thats why they call him Mr. Clean

I just love the way everyone's hero is clean and everyone else is doping.

So can we factually say that anyone that finishes behind Sastre is clean and everyone that finishes ahead of him is doped? Maybe we put in a correction factor for him being an amazing talent and say that everyone that finished more than 5 minutes behind him is clean.

So last years tour was 99% clean (cos Sastre won). Cool.

of course im not saying that. im saying last year's was clean-er for a number of reasons. first, the average speed was much slower, and made much more sense (this year's average speed is outrageous). secondly, there has never been a cloud of suspicion around sastre or evans, unlike armstrong and contador who constantly get caught up in this or that. and thirdly, former irish cyclist paul kimmage, who is now a brilliant journalist, was given full access to the tour last year, and in particular, sastre's team. he wrote that he believed it was the cleanest tour he had witnessed. he is writer of the awarding winning book Rough Ride. And anyone doubting the prominence of PED's in the peloton ought to give it a read.
when the tour de frnace was originially founded, it was meant to hurt, to be so hard that only a few could finish it. last years was like that, sastre, evans and everyone else were in agony going up the slopes. now, with the return of astana, armstrong and contador, its back to sprinting up the mountains at ridiculous speeds without a hint of fatigue.
Im not sastres number 1 fan, so less of the sarcasm. i just feel sorry for him as i beleive him to be clean. my 2 favourite cyclists are the brave Christophe Bassons and Filippo Simeon. look them up armstrong lovers

I think I'm going to buck the trend. I've decided to change my mind. My heroes are doping and everyone else is clean.

Its got an advantage that when they're done for the day you can stroke their fetlocks and give them a carrot.

I think that they should just assume that everyone is dirty. When they test and discover a clean person they should ostracise them from the sport for being so stupid.

How do they expect to put on a show when they're not pumped? We want more speed. Ridiculous levels of athletic ability. More more more.

Let them take anything they like unless it induces moobs. Lets face it you couldn't take Contador seriously in an interview if he had not only a language induced lisp. He's Spanish after all but also a pair of 38dd's.

Commentating would get a bit more complex also as they would have to start discussing not LA's sculpted and cut figure but the matronly picture of LA hauling himself up the mountains. Instability induced on technical descents due to constant accelerations and decelerations would also be of interest.

zander1983 said:

Im a huge TDF fan, I've never miss it. But it's one of those events that I watch with a mixture of admiration, anger and frustration. The 2008 tour gave me massive hope. Astana were rightfully barred from the event meaning Contador thankfully couldn't participate. It was a superb tour, and I fell in love with Sastre and Evans. There was hope that perhaps the TDF was cleaning up. Then this happens.
Why have there been no drug failures in 2009 tour? Are we expected to believe they're all clean (when 95% are not)? Why are the UCI protecting these riders? (money and sponsors I guess).

There's been no testing. They've just given up. Why test when you know that once caught the snivelling creep who's been caught will just say that you epically fail and you're catching only a tiny percentage of the culprits. Its embarrassing. Dn't bother to catch them - then there aint no problems.

Why were Astana allowed back? In 2007 and 2008 there was almost a zero tolerance to those even suspected of doping. Now the Dope Team are welcomed back with open arms.

Thats obvious. Everyone knew that Contador would win once allowed in. The other contenders were probably stupid enough to say look. We want to have a go at winning this thing. But If we win we don't want people saying. Hey they'd never have won if Conti was about.

Why was Contador not treated like Ivan Basso was? They were both caught up in the same scandal. Because Basso was a real man and admitted to drug use, he gets the ban. Contador stayed quiet and now he's going to be tour champion. It absolutely stinks.

Yep life sucks. Never admit responsibility. You just get beaten up for it. Thats business 101 for dummies and idiots.

Why is Contador showing no pain up the hills? (obvious, I know).

Because he's on pain killers :->

He's holding himself back. Its making a farce of the tour,.

Absolutely he's got so much extra in the tank he shoudl just get up and go.

The man's so pumped up on CERA he cant help disobey orders and ride away from teammates.

No I think he might just be a disobedient little [censored].

How can a 37 year old multi-millionaire out of the sport for 4 years come back and destroy almost everyone?

The word multi millionaire says quite a lot here. Perhaps he was right and the previous tour was pathetic. Hey if he can come back to these levels at the age of 37 after 3 years out and a [censored] preparation there would appear to be some truth. Drug fuelled or not. One has to assume that many of the others who were competing were also drug fuelled so it kind of levels the playing field. Shock horreux for all the LA haters perhaps he has some talent also.

Why hasn't Armstrong carried through his 2 promises and 1/ publish his blood test results on his website (which he promised) and 2/ start an anti-doping programme within Astana (which he promised).

Right now Astana appears to be imploding. Drugs programs are expensive. The Kazak government can't afford to pay the salaries let alone test anyone.

The whole thing stinks. The 2008 tour is a distant memory. I'm not going to watch another as long as Bruynel, Contador, Armstrong and Astana stay involved and the UCI continues their lax approach.

I tell you what why don't we eliminate everyone who finsihes high on GC as well as anyone who might win a points competition. As well as anyone who finishes well down the GC because its well known that the also rans take drugs just to get through. This has a slight flaw in that as soon as you've eliminated all these folks then others immediately fill their places. So just eliminate everyone.

Sastre's still my hero. He's the victim in all this. The tour's Mr Clean deserves so much more

Arguably Sastres performance. A winner one year and well down on GC the next suggests drugs taking also. I do hope not.

BTW this was all posted very much tongue in cheek so please don't get the hump. I'm joking.

zander1983 said:

of course im not saying that. im saying last year's was clean-er for a number of reasons. first, the average speed was much slower, and made much more sense (this year's average speed is outrageous). secondly, there has never been a cloud of suspicion around sastre or evans, unlike armstrong and contador who constantly get caught up in this or that. and thirdly, former irish cyclist paul kimmage, who is now a brilliant journalist, was given full access to the tour last year, and in particular, sastre's team. he wrote that he believed it was the cleanest tour he had witnessed. he is writer of the awarding winning book Rough Ride. And anyone doubting the prominence of PED's in the peloton ought to give it a read.
when the tour de frnace was originially founded, it was meant to hurt, to be so hard that only a few could finish it. last years was like that, sastre, evans and everyone else were in agony going up the slopes. now, with the return of astana, armstrong and contador, its back to sprinting up the mountains at ridiculous speeds without a hint of fatigue.
Im not sastres number 1 fan, so less of the sarcasm. i just feel sorry for him as i beleive him to be clean. my 2 favourite cyclists are the brave Christophe Bassons and Filippo Simeon. look them up armstrong lovers

I guess you just touched on a nerve - that nerve being the comparison of tour/riders to determine who is doping. Maybe it's just the engineer in but trying to determine a rider/teams innocence by comparing average speeds/relative speeds/who they beat/who beat them and the word of a journalist (my other pet hate) is like trying to measure the temperautre of the sun using two buckets of water (one of which is in the shade) and a pool thermometer right here on earth.

While my comparison is silly in the extreme what I'm trying to say is that identifying dopers using factless and relative data is a complete waste of time.

The only fact that can be said is that the number of dopers is somewhere between 0% and 100%.

Why bother?

My favourite riders were/are Ullrich and Kloden - I supported both of them before their drug busts and suspicions. And you know what? I don't really care whether either dopes - mainly because there will be a mild to fair chance that anyone I choose to support may be doping. We'll never know...

zander1983 said:

of course im not saying that. im saying last year's was clean-er for a number of reasons. first, the average speed was much slower, and made much more sense (this year's average speed is outrageous). secondly, there has never been a cloud of suspicion around sastre or evans, unlike armstrong and contador who constantly get caught up in this or that. and thirdly, former irish cyclist paul kimmage, who is now a brilliant journalist, was given full access to the tour last year, and in particular, sastre's team. he wrote that he believed it was the cleanest tour he had witnessed. he is writer of the awarding winning book Rough Ride. And anyone doubting the prominence of PED's in the peloton ought to give it a read.
when the tour de frnace was originially founded, it was meant to hurt, to be so hard that only a few could finish it. last years was like that, sastre, evans and everyone else were in agony going up the slopes. now, with the return of astana, armstrong and contador, its back to sprinting up the mountains at ridiculous speeds without a hint of fatigue.
Im not sastres number 1 fan, so less of the sarcasm. i just feel sorry for him as i beleive him to be clean. my 2 favourite cyclists are the brave Christophe Bassons and Filippo Simeon. look them up armstrong lovers

Something about the Tour average speeds bothered me so I did some research...

Contador's victory in 2007:
Dates 7 July–29 July
Stages 20 & Prologue
Distance 3,569.9 km (2,218 mi)
Winning time 91h 00' 26" (39.23 km/h/24.38 mph)

Sastre's victory in 2008:
Dates 5–27 July
Stages 21
Distance 3,559 km (2,211 mi)
Winning time 87h 52' 52" (40.50 km/h/25.17 mph)

Sastre (2008) rode 3.23% faster than Contador did in 2007 and you accuse Conrador of doping but say Sastre is clean??????

Do you see how relatively stupid relative statistics are now?

Edit: ok so I'm really bored - here's another statistic....Sastre's 2008 victory was faster than 5 of Lance's 7 victories...still think Sastre is clean?

Just seen Marco Pantani rode a 41.765km/h average in 1998! Holy hells thats fast.

COntador is currently leading the 2009 Tour with an average of 40.14kh/h - slower than Sastres 2008 victory - so much for your "this years speed is outrageous" comment...

Ok by now even you have to admit that compareing tour average speeds is a bit silly...

ya perhaps. its all rather pointless. my all time favourite is christophe bassons. integrity is admirable

hmmm, where'd you get those stats? i read the 2008 tour was the slowest in 8 years. maybe you're right and they're all dopers. im just killing time til the premiership starts

thats alright, being a non-doper purist/idiot, i'm used to sarcasm. just find it a shame we'll never know the real champion of cycling (used be lemond but ho knows these days)

Of course Lemond was totally clean......The only grand champion who was. He raced against Fignon who was doping and then beat him. By the defintion of the doping brigade that therefore means that Lemond was doping because it would have been impossible for him to win otherwise.

Lordy the doping fanatics are not even consistent amongst themselves.

Its just sheer fan boy ism. Everyone else is doping (especially LA and Contador) but my hero who is within a whisker of those guys isn't!

nonns said:

Of course Lemond was totally clean......The only grand champion who was. He raced against Fignon who was doping and then beat him. By the defintion of the doping brigade that therefore means that Lemond was doping because it would have been impossible for him to win otherwise.

Lordy the doping fanatics are not even consistent amongst themselves.

Its just sheer fan boy ism. Everyone else is doping (especially LA and Contador) but my hero who is within a whisker of those guys isn't!

hear hear! Lemond's a legend. And genuinely nice man. His treatment by Armstrongand Landis was disgusting (especially the child abuse stuff). Those cheats ride dirty, talk dirty and live dirty

Don't worry, the blood passports have made this the cleanest tour ever, unlike last year where half the field were on CERA. You can rest at ease that Lance and Contador are certainly not doping. They would get caught pretty quickly if they were. So you can stop this bullsh1t smear stuff now and accept what you are seeing. You can do a lot better than make stuff up about successful people that have more talent than you could ever dream of.

TheDangerMan said:

Don't worry, the blood passports have made this the cleanest tour ever, unlike last year where half the field were on CERA. You can rest at ease that Lance and Contador are certainly not doping. They would get caught pretty quickly if they were. So you can stop this bullsh1t smear stuff now and accept what you are seeing. You can do a lot better than make stuff up about successful people that have more talent than you could ever dream of.

i thought this post was tongue in cheek for a moment, but u seem to believe this drivel. whens the last big rifer to fail a test? Landis? he never had a profile. big riders dont fail, its simply too easy to avoid. michael rasmussen, bjarne riis, ivan basso, david miller....they never failed. but they're confirmed cheats. rasmussen has doped for years, never even came close to failing. i beleive contador will fail. he's made some big big enemies in armstrong and bruynel. so he's going down within the next 12 months. armstrong? the UCI, already struggling for money and sponsors, would never let it happen. they caught him 7 times already, but he wrangled his way out of it through lawyers and a complete reluctance from UCI to bring him down. he IS cycling, everyone knows he cant and wont fail. TDF would be dead

zander1983 said:

Im a huge TDF fan, I've never miss it. But it's one of those events that I watch with a mixture of admiration, anger and frustration. The 2008 tour gave me massive hope. Astana were rightfully barred from the event meaning Contador thankfully couldn't participate. It was a superb tour, and I fell in love with Sastre and Evans. There was hope that perhaps the TDF was cleaning up. Then this happens.
Why have there been no drug failures in 2009 tour? Are we expected to believe they're all clean (when 95% are not)? Why are the UCI protecting these riders? (money and sponsors I guess).
Why were Astana allowed back? In 2007 and 2008 there was almost a zero tolerance to those even suspected of doping. Now the Dope Team are welcomed back with open arms.
Why was Contador not treated like Ivan Basso was? They were both caught up in the same scandal. Because Basso was a real man and admitted to drug use, he gets the ban. Contador stayed quiet and now he's going to be tour champion. It absolutely stinks.
Why is Contador showing no pain up the hills? (obvious, I know). He's holding himself back. Its making a farce of the tour,. The man's so pumped up on CERA he cant help disobey orders and ride away from teammates.
How can a 37 year old multi-millionaire out of the sport for 4 years come back and destroy almost everyone? Why hasn't Armstrong carried through his 2 promises and 1/ publish his blood test results on his website (which he promised) and 2/ start an anti-doping programme within Astana (which he promised).
The whole thing stinks. The 2008 tour is a distant memory. I'm not going to watch another as long as Bruynel, Contador, Armstrong and Astana stay involved and the UCI continues their lax approach.
Sastre's still my hero. He's the victim in all this. The tour's Mr Clean deserves so much more

I disagree with you on so many levels. Lets start with Astana being barred from the 2008 TdF. Astana was barred as punishment to the sponsors (who also hold the team license). With nearly a complete turnover in the staff and riders from the disgraced period, it was unfair punishment to the new team of riders. Its looks like the ASO will get a chance to banish Astana again as Vino comes back to his old team. Hopefully they will banish Vino again in 2010.

So, if someone wins a race (other than Sastre) then they're doping? Is it possible that Sastre had a bad race? maybe his form peaked early or late. Perhaps his team was too focused on getting the green jersey locked up? There are a million other reason's why its possible for Sastre to fail, yet you immediately assume that the rest of the riders are doping.

Maybe they should test Lance Armstrong and see if he is using drugs? Oh - they have already done that some 30+ times this year alone. Well, Lance with his public high-school level education must have figured out a way to beat all those PhD's and Doctors who design all these tests. Wow, that says alot about the quality of public education in Texas, thanks!

I'm sorry, your ranting about drugged riders and your "evidence" just don't hold up. How do you know that 95% of riders at the TdF use drugs? Please, if you can prove it please do...

Why can't you simply accept what the facts show - Contrador was stronger than everyone else this year. I'm sure he was tested many times during the race and yet there are no positive results (so far, I read that all results are not back as of today). I grow tired of every "fan" making excuses for their favorite riders by claiming that everyone else cheated.

I'm not an Armstrong fanatic, only a guy that has to believe the frequent drug tests that shows most riders are clean in this sport. And I'm also so tired of fans (and never-has-beens like Kimmage) insisting that everyone but their guy is dirty. This consistent spouting only makes our sport look worse than it is and leads even more people to assume that anyone riding well is dirty.

Lemond doped. He hasn't provided any proof he has. In fact, he's denied doping which is, in itself, proof that he did dope.

Lemond fanboys play that double standard like virtuosos.