2004 Tour designed to hurt Lance?

On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:52:50 -0700, James Buster <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

1) Back-ended difficulty heavily disfavors older riders.
2) The new team time trial rules seem squarely aimed at US Postal,
since none of the European teams have their depth, nor under the
new TT rules do they have much incentive to add depth.
3) Given the current political climate between the US and France,
I wonder whether these changes are aimed at US Postal or Lance
as *Americans*.
4) Are there any past examples of changes to Tour rules or routing
that appear designed to hinder specific riders or teams?

They should have a rule for banning idiots from watching the TdF...

Keith said:

Quoted message said:

1) Back-ended difficulty heavily disfavors older riders.

I'm not sure that it disfavors older riders, but it was thought to
favor Jan Ullrich. The story was that Jan gets stronger in the later
stages, so I assume that they felt that if they put some difficult
climbing days later in the race than usual it would help Jan.

So much for that plan.

"Keith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:52:50 -0700, James Buster <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

1) Back-ended difficulty heavily disfavors older riders.
2) The new team time trial rules seem squarely aimed at US Postal,
since none of the European teams have their depth, nor under the
new TT rules do they have much incentive to add depth.
3) Given the current political climate between the US and France,
I wonder whether these changes are aimed at US Postal or Lance
as *Americans*.
4) Are there any past examples of changes to Tour rules or routing
that appear designed to hinder specific riders or teams?

They should have a rule for banning idiots from watching the TdF...

If they do, what will you do in July all month?

James Buster said:

2) The new team time trial rules seem squarely aimed at US Postal,
since none of the European teams have their depth, nor under the
new TT rules do they have much incentive to add depth.

It's trendy at this time of year to post the "GC disregarding the TTT".
For extra points, your followup posting should consider whether this
would put the "original" GC contenders in contention, worse off, or in
the category of wondering why they turned up...

James Buster

Get real! Why would they change for a rider that is on the way out anyway? Do you really think it is politically motivated and that Lance has any political clout? [censored]! Lance is just another rider and not such a great one at that, if it was not for the best team money could buy do you really think he would have won even one TDF?
The European cycling scene is a whole lot bigger than one american rider. There have been and will be again many better riders than Lance will ever be, simply because they can ride ALL the races in the calendar and not just the TDF. Look back in history and see teh riders of old that rode everything everywhere, there are the greats of cycling, and not any from America you might note.
I hope and sincerely the TT up the alp De Huez proves me wrong and Lance climbs it like a startled mountain goat, I really do. BUT I do not think I will see it as there are many in the peleton that are simply better riders than lance. I will however be really spissed if he loses time to Jan.
That is my opinion, and mine ONLY.
I accept yours with the respect that you recieve mine
Ro

Jack Hollis said:

Keith said:

Quoted message said:

1) Back-ended difficulty heavily disfavors older riders.

I'm not sure that it disfavors older riders, but it was thought to
favor Jan Ullrich.

Inability to recover is one of the first things an athlete encounters
as he or she ages. Handling mountain stages early is much easier than
when encountering them after the fatigue of many stages. Or to put it
another way, a 40 year old runner could probably keep up with a 25
year old elite marathoner for, say, 10 miles, but probably won't be
able to finish having made that effort.

Quoted message said:

The story was that Jan gets stronger in the later
stages, so I assume that they felt that if they put some difficult
climbing days later in the race than usual it would help Jan.

Am I the only person who finds blatant favoritism on the part of a
sport's governing body grossly distasteful?

Ro said:

Get real! Why would they change for a rider that is on the way out anyway?

Because a French governing body might not like the idea of an American
winning their beloved race more times than their French heroes?

Quoted message said:

Do you really think it is politically motivated and that Lance has any
political clout? [censored]! Lance is just another rider and not such a
great one at that, if it was not for the best team money could buy do
you really think he would have won even one TDF?

That sounds rather like envy! Even if US Postal is "the best team
money can buy", so what? It's not like the Europeans don't have
plenty of money. What's next, team salary caps? TdF promoters should
be neutral arbiters. Changing rules and routes in a way that strongly
implies they aren't is a stain upon their honor (if they have any).

James Buster said:

1) Back-ended difficulty heavily disfavors older riders.
2) The new team time trial rules seem squarely aimed at US Postal,
since none of the European teams have their depth, nor under the
new TT rules do they have much incentive to add depth.
3) Given the current political climate between the US and France,
I wonder whether these changes are aimed at US Postal or Lance
as *Americans*.
4) Are there any past examples of changes to Tour rules or routing
that appear designed to hinder specific riders or teams?

I've never used this word in usenet, but here we go: Your are a dumbass.

You don't do your american fellows a favour if you try to interpret
everything in a xenophobic way. No european is out to get you, and
especially not in such a retarded way like changing the route of a
bicycle race. Get real, please. We have no "freedom fries" here in
europe, and the word "antieuropean" is still not invented.

Btw., I wouldn't even now why France should have a problem with mexicans.

I shouldn't do this, but here is a hint which might explain routes
designed for or against certain riders:
A race organizer is interested in a exciting race, and this can be
achieved the easiest way through a competition where the victor is
determined in the latest possible moment.
Btw. this happens in a lot of sports events, even where no "americans"
participate.

Regarding...

1. Actually the opposite is true. Endurance peaks with age (to about 30
anyway). That's what makes Ullrich so amazing...he finished 2nd at 22 and
first at 23.
2. It was aimed at reducing Postal's chances of doing what they did last
year...putting a large gap on the weaker TTT team's GC contenders.
3. Get real. The Tour is more like the reality show Survivor, they change
the rules as they see fit to make the Tour more interesting (at least in
their mind). It has nothing to do with particular countries. If it did,
they would canel the remaining stages and declare Voeckler the winner.
4. Yes. Indurain comes to mind. As he continued to dominate the Tour
began to include things he did not like much. Indurain would have cringed
at the Alpe d'Huez TT. Also, the last time the TTT rule was changed was to
limit the damage La Vie Claire could do to the other GC contenders in '85.

"James Buster" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

1) Back-ended difficulty heavily disfavors older riders.
2) The new team time trial rules seem squarely aimed at US Postal,
since none of the European teams have their depth, nor under the
new TT rules do they have much incentive to add depth.
3) Given the current political climate between the US and France,
I wonder whether these changes are aimed at US Postal or Lance
as *Americans*.
4) Are there any past examples of changes to Tour rules or routing
that appear designed to hinder specific riders or teams?

On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:52:50 -0700, James Buster <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

1) Back-ended difficulty heavily disfavors older riders.

It definitely favored boredom in the first 10 days.

Too bad most of France is kind of flat...

James Buster <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I wonder whether these changes are aimed at US Postal or Lance
as *Americans*.

Tour race director Jean-Marie Leblanc is Armstrong's most ardent defender.
He has stated that his has to do this all the time, given the anti-American
sentiment. In any case, it is not the Tour organisation that is anti-Armstrong.

Quoted message said:

4) Are there any past examples of changes to Tour rules or routing
that appear designed to hinder specific riders or teams?

The new KOM rules are intended to prevent the recent tactics used by
Jalabert and Virenque to get the jersey. Not too pro French, if you ask me.

-ilan

"James Buster" <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

1) Back-ended difficulty heavily disfavors older riders.
2) The new team time trial rules seem squarely aimed at US Postal,
since none of the European teams have their depth, nor under the
new TT rules do they have much incentive to add depth.

You forgot:
- the cobbles stage, where a hazard might happen to anyone.
- the omission of the pre-mountains ITT
- the "hard passage" through the Massif Central, where 3 days of attacking
would leave the controlling team (usps) in the ropes.

It is not personal anti-lance, it's just an attempt to make the race more
open.

Ilan Vardi said:

James Buster <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I wonder whether these changes are aimed at US Postal or Lance
as *Americans*.

Tour race director Jean-Marie Leblanc is Armstrong's most ardent defender.
He has stated that his has to do this all the time, given the anti-American
sentiment. In any case, it is not the Tour organisation that is anti-Armstrong.

Quoted message said:

4) Are there any past examples of changes to Tour rules or routing
that appear designed to hinder specific riders or teams?

The new KOM rules are intended to prevent the recent tactics used by
Jalabert and Virenque to get the jersey. Not too pro French, if you ask me.

-ilan

During the Indurain years, several attempts were made to help the "climbers"
win, although nobody outclimbed Indurain until 1996 when he slowed down.

Dan

"Bart Van Hoorebeeck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"James Buster" <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

1) Back-ended difficulty heavily disfavors older riders.
2) The new team time trial rules seem squarely aimed at US Postal,
since none of the European teams have their depth, nor under the
new TT rules do they have much incentive to add depth.

You forgot:
- the cobbles stage, where a hazard might happen to anyone.
- the omission of the pre-mountains ITT
- the "hard passage" through the Massif Central, where 3 days of attacking
would leave the controlling team (usps) in the ropes.

It is not personal anti-lance, it's just an attempt to make the race more
open.

In the 20 years I have been watching the Tour (and I'm sure long before
that) the organisers have constantly tinkered with the course setup--as you
say, to keep the race more open, and more exciting. Saying the organizers
are specifically "anti Lance" or "anti American" sounds like those people
who are always claiming that the American TV networks "conspire" with the
officials to ensure that a New York or Los Angeles team is in the finals.
(Now, if they made USPS ride an extra mountain col after everyone else
stopped, that would be different......;-)

Ultimately, money talks and [censored] walks. Leblanc doesn't care squat
about Iraq. Actually, Lance is the best thing that has happened to the Tour
in a while. Europeans are always going to have a high interest, and now
Americans, who before now couldn't have cared less, are jumping on board as
well (at least for 1 or 2 more years).

Compare the crowds on Plateau de Beille in 2004 with the tapes from 2002 and
tell me it's not working.

[email hidden] (Ilan Vardi) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

James Buster <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I wonder whether these changes are aimed at US Postal or Lance
as *Americans*.

Tour race director Jean-Marie Leblanc is Armstrong's most ardent defender.
He has stated that his has to do this all the time, given the anti-American
sentiment. In any case, it is not the Tour organisation that is anti-Armstrong.

Quoted message said:

4) Are there any past examples of changes to Tour rules or routing
that appear designed to hinder specific riders or teams?

The new KOM rules are intended to prevent the recent tactics used by
Jalabert and Virenque to get the jersey. Not too pro French, if you ask me.

Well, Virenque has used the same tactics yet again, and has been
successful enough to take a substantial lead in the KoM competition.
Virenque is probably not even among the Top Dozen climbers competing
in the TdF. However, by not having to concern himself with GC
viability, he is free to cherry pick a couple of stages that have many
climbs (and KoM points), but which the big guns will not be vying to
win.

Perhaps the KoM competition is not yet over--I don't expect
Virenque to earn that many points in the Alps.

Quoted message said:

-ilan

Quoted message said:

There have been and will be again many better riders than Lance will
ever be,

Really? Where are they?

Seems to me, if I remember correctly, there is only one person ahead of him
in the GC and he should be disposed of rather quickly in the next stage or
so.

So, again I ask, where are all these riders that are better than Lance?

------
Dave Casey - Realtor
www.LasVegasHomesDirect.com
[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

2. It was aimed at reducing Postal's chances of doing what they did last
year...putting a large gap on the weaker TTT team's GC contenders.

Kind of reminds me of women that whine and cry when they can't pass the
firefighters exams when they have to compete on an even level with the men.
So the courts have forced municipalities into easing up on the exams so
more women can pass them.

"Let's not tell the other teams to get better so they can compete with
Postal. Let's change the rules to put Postal at a disadvantage."

------
Dave Casey - Realtor
www.LasVegasHomesDirect.com
[email hidden]

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dave Casey said:

Quoted message said:

There have been and will be again many better riders than Lance will
ever be,

Really? Where are they?

Seems to me, if I remember correctly, there is only one person ahead of him
in the GC and he should be disposed of rather quickly in the next stage or
so.

So, again I ask, where are all these riders that are better than Lance?

there have been ---> past

---> present

there will be ---> future

Read a post and make sure you understand all the words before you reply
instead of jumping in defense of LA whenever someone says something
about him.

jyh.

--
=====================================================================
jean-yves herve' /\
Department of Computer Science \/ e-mail --> [email hidden]
and Statistics /\
University of Rhode Island \/ Tel. --> (401) 874-4400
Kingston, RI 02881-0816 /\ Fax. --> (401) 874-4617
USA \/
=====================================================================

James Buster <.com>...

Quoted message said:

1) Back-ended difficulty heavily disfavors older riders.
2) The new team time trial rules seem squarely aimed at US Postal,
since none of the European teams have their depth, nor under the
new TT rules do they have much incentive to add depth.
3) Given the current political climate between the US and France,
I wonder whether these changes are aimed at US Postal or Lance
as *Americans*.
4) Are there any past examples of changes to Tour rules or routing
that appear designed to hinder specific riders or teams?

It's already rumored that the 2005 Tour will be designed to hurt
Lance, Basso and Mancebo.

It'll be designed to assist the French -- most of the stages are
overall downhill and mitigate any strong team or strong rider. In
fact, if RAGT gets their [censored] together they will no longer be the
laughing stock of the Tour and can improve their position next year if
they sign a Really Fat Man.

-Ken