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2 Questions About Doping

Started by Eric Lambi · · Last activity · 15 posts · 677 views

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Road Cycling
Published
25 June 2004
Last activity
27 June 2004
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Eric Lambi
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  1. 1) How does someone on the out of competition list (i.e.
    David Millar), make it through drug controls without
    getting caught if he was on EPO. I can see someone who
    knows when and where they will be tested making it
    through controls, but don't know how someone who could
    get a surprise visit at any time passes.

    2) How is it possible that some Pro's could win races
    competing against other pro's who are drugged to the
    core? Or is it possible? Guys like Lance Armstrong and
    Jan Ulrich are incredibly talented, but I don't know how
    it would be possible for them to beat other riders who
    have almost as much talent, but also take drugs. Altitude
    can mimmick some or all of the affects of EPO, so maybe
    that is the answer?

  2. "Eric Lambi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    1) How does someone on the out of competition list (i.e.
    David Millar), make it through drug controls without
    getting caught if he was on EPO. I can see someone who
    knows when and where they will be tested making it
    through controls, but don't know how someone who could
    get a surprise visit at any time passes.


    Maybe the rashes on his legs were the giveaway? Hoping the
    Tour will not be a repeat of 98.. Dan Gregory

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  3. Dan Gregory said:

    Hoping the Tour will not be a repeat of 98..

    Now that would be quite a comeback.

    --
    David N. Welton Personal: dedasys.comdavidw
    Free Software: dedasys.comfreesoftware Apache
    Tcl: tcl.apache.orgtcl.apache.org Photos:
    dedasys.comphotos

  4. Quoted post said:

    Originally posted by Eric Lambi
    1) How does someone on the out of competition list (i.e.
    David Millar), make it through drug controls without
    getting caught if he was on EPO. I can see someone who
    knows when and where they will be tested making it
    through controls, but don't know how someone who could
    get a surprise visit at any time passes.

    Apparently, his hematocrit levels never exceeded the threshold that constitutes a positive test for EPO.

  5. Ted B said:
    Eric Lambi said:

    1) How does someone on the out of competition list
    (i.e. David Millar), make it through drug controls
    without getting caught if he was on EPO. I can see
    someone who knows when and where they will be
    tested making it through controls, but don't know
    how someone who could get a surprise visit at any
    time passes.

    Apparently, his hematocrit levels never exceeded the
    threshold that constitutes a positive test for EPO.

    See, EPO is very difficult to detect because it's a
    naturally occurring substance in the body. It's somewhat
    similar to trying to test for testosterone - it's not a
    matter of if, but how much - that is, an unnatural level.

    -Sonarrat.

  6. "Eric Lambi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    1) How does someone on the out of competition list (i.e.
    David Millar), make it through drug controls without
    getting caught if he was on EPO. I can see someone who
    knows when and where they will be tested making it
    through controls, but don't know how someone who could
    get a surprise visit at any time passes.

    EPO is hard to detect except for a couple of days after you
    take it. Regardless of "out of competition testing" a rider
    would have to be incredibly unlucky to be caught using EPO.
    The dummy had some empty EPO vials in his house is how they
    nailed Millar.

    Quoted message said:

    2) How is it possible that some Pro's could win races
    competing against other pro's who are drugged to the
    core? Or is it possible? Guys like Lance Armstrong and
    Jan Ulrich are incredibly talented, but I don't know
    how it would be possible for them to beat other riders
    who have almost as much talent, but also take drugs.
    Altitude can mimmick some or all of the affects of EPO,
    so maybe that is the answer?

    Unless you're willing to believe that Andy Hampsten, Brad
    McGee, Charly Mottet and others who have proclaimed
    themselves clean and disgusted by the use of drugs in the
    sport, are in reality drug users it stands to reason that if
    you have enough talent you don't need the drugs.

    Now surely I've gone through it enough here that people
    realize that using EPO improves a riders performance but
    doesn't make him a superman? There are super riders that
    have surprisingly low hematocrits. There are so many
    complicating factors involved with the oxygen uptake of the
    body that EPO can only be assumed to be at least as
    dangerous as it is performance enhancing.

    Rumor had it that Pantani had grown an allergy to EPO
    causing his body to distroy the naturally low amounts in his
    body and was forced to take EPO to survive. Now that would
    be truely pitiful for some third rank domestique to destroy
    his own life in order to carry water bottles for Simoni.

  7. Quoted message said:

    2) How is it possible that some Pro's could win races
    competing against other pro's who are drugged to the
    core? Or is it possible?

    The "good 'ol boy" network doesn't run cycling, just like
    [censored] cheney doesn't run Halliburton.

    I'm involved in the golf business and recently lost my job,
    and possibly career, because I complained about my boss
    coming into work drunk, and 3 hours late to work every day,
    for about the past 1 1/2 years. At almost every course I've
    worked at (around 9 now) I've had at least one boss with a
    drinking or drug problem.

    Face it, some businesses have "dirty little secrets", and
    the good 'ol boys will do everything and anything to keep
    those secrets from the public.

    If you speak up about it... your reputation will be
    attacked, you will be criticized and discredited as a nut,
    having personal problems or grudges to settle... You will
    loose your ability to earn a paycheck...

    Nobody likes a whistle blower! That's how it works...

  8. Quoted message said:

    2) How is it possible that some Pro's could win races
    competing against other pro's who are drugged to the
    core? Or is it possible?

    The "good 'ol boy" network doesn't run cycling, just like
    [censored] cheney doesn't run Halliburton.

    I'm involved in the golf business and recently lost my job,
    and possibly career, because I complained about my boss
    coming into work drunk, and 3 hours late to work every day,
    for about the past 1 1/2 years. At almost every course I've
    worked at (around 9 now) I've had at least one boss with a
    drinking or drug problem.

    Face it, some businesses have "dirty little secrets", and
    the good 'ol boys will do everything and anything to keep
    those secrets from the public.

    If you speak up about it... your reputation will be
    attacked, you will be criticized and discredited as a nut,
    having personal problems or grudges to settle... You will
    loose your ability to earn a paycheck...

    Nobody likes a whistle blower! That's how it works...

  9. [email hidden] (Eric Lambi) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    1) How does someone on the out of competition list (i.e.
    David Millar), make it through drug controls without
    getting caught if he was on EPO. I can see someone who
    knows when and where they will be tested making it
    through controls, but don't know how someone who could
    get a surprise visit at any time passes.

    how-to-pass-a-drug-test.netdrug detection
    time-urine.htm

    "Still, even the EPO test has loopholes: It can reach back
    and detect the drug for only three or four days, according
    to Olivier Rabin, science director at the World Anti-Doping
    Agency (WADA). But an athlete could reap benefits for as
    long as two weeks, Rabin and other experts said.

    There is thus a lengthy period when users enjoy athletic
    advantage without risking detection. Rabin suspects some
    cyclists take a high dose of EPO and stop at least three
    days before the race begins, a strategy mirrored in other
    sports and a prime illustration of how the cheaters stay one
    step ahead of the testers. "

  10. In article <[email hidden]>, Tom

    Kunich said:

    Rumor had it that Pantani had grown an allergy to EPO
    causing his body to distroy the naturally low amounts in
    his body and was forced to take EPO to survive. Now that
    would be truely pitiful for some third rank domestique
    to destroy his own life in order to carry water bottles
    for Simoni.

    As opposed to driving a delivery truck in the city all day
    breathing deisel exhaust, or working in a toll booth?

    -WG

  11. There is a lot of confusion regarding the EPO tests
    available. Currently there is the direct "pee test" that
    works only 3 to 4 days out; IOW you need to be dumb and
    unlucky to get caught. The other test is indirect and uses
    blood (its hard to get people to give this up) and looks for
    specific blood characteristics. Below is one such paper
    describing how they do this. Again, its hard to implement
    blood tests in any sport due to its invasive nature. owever,
    blood tests are very good for detecting drug use. I also
    included some work on hGH testing.

    Chris

    Detection of recombinant human erythropoietin abuse in
    athletes utilizing markers of altered erythropoiesis.

    Parisotto R, Wu M, Ashenden MJ, Emslie KR, Gore CJ, Howe C,
    Kazlauskas R, Sharpe K, Trout GJ, Xie M.

    Department of Physiology, Australian Institute of Sport,
    P.O. Box 176, Belconnen ACT 2616, Australia.
    [email hidden]

    BACKGROUND AND OBJECTIVES: The detection of recombinant
    human erythropoietin (r-HuEPO) abuse by athletes remains
    problematic. The main aim of this study was to demonstrate
    that the five indirect markers of altered erythropoiesis
    identified in our earlier work were reliable evidence of
    current or recently discontinued r-HuEPO use. A subsidiary
    aim was to refine weightings of the five markers in the
    initial model using a much larger data set than in the
    pilot study. A final aim was to verify that the hematologic
    response to r-HuEPO did not differ between Caucasian and
    Asiatic subjects. DESIGN AND METHODS: Recreational athletes
    resident in Sydney, Australia (Sydney, n = 49; 16 women, 33
    men) or Beijing, China (Beijing, n=24; 12 women, 12 men)
    were randomly assigned to r-HuEPO or placebo groups prior
    to a 25 day administration phase. Injections of r-HuEPO (or
    saline) were administered double-blind at a dose of 50
    IU/kg three times per week, with oral iron (105 mg) or
    placebo supplements taken daily by all subjects. Blood
    profiles were monitored during and for 4 weeks after drug
    administration for hematocrit (Hct), reticulocyte
    hematocrit (RetHct), percent macrocytes (%Macro), serum
    erythropoietin (EPO) and soluble transferrin receptor
    (sTfr), since we had previously shown that these five
    variables were indicative of r-HuEPO use. RESULTS. The
    changes in Hct, RetHct, %Macro, EPO and sTfr in the Sydney
    trial were qualitatively very similar to the changes noted
    in our previous administration trial involving recreational
    athletes of similar genetic origin. Statistical models
    developed from Fisher's discriminant analysis were able to
    categorize the user and placebo groups correctly. The same
    hematologic response was demonstrated in Beijing athletes
    also administered r-HuEPO. INTERPRETATION AND CONCLUSIONS:
    This paper confirms that r-HuEPO administration causes a
    predictable and reproducible hematologic response. These
    markers are disturbed both during and for several weeks
    following r-HuEPO administration. This work establishes an
    indirect blood test which offers a useful means of
    detecting and deterring r-HuEPO abuse. Ethnicity did not
    influence the markers identified as being able to detect
    athletes who abuse r-HuEPO.

    Indirect evidence of hormone abuse. Proof of doping?

    Minuto F, Barreca A, Melioli G.

    Chair of Endocrinology, DiSEM, University of Genova, Italy.
    [email hidden]

    Besides anabolic steroids, the most common performance-
    enhancing hormones are erythropoietin (EPO), insulin, GH,
    and gonadotropins, mostly indistinguishable from endogenous
    hormones and with very short half-life. This makes virtually
    impossible to demonstrate their use by measuring their
    concentration in the blood or urine. A possible approach to
    the problem may lie in in-direct demonstration through
    detection of the biological effects of these substances. The
    finding of an increased hematocrit level is suspicious but
    not clearly demonstrative of EPO abuse. Very high levels of
    circulating EPO could be associated with a strong suspicion
    of doping, when associated to other abnormal parameters,
    such as Ht, sTFRr, EPO, RDW. The presence of antibodies
    against the polysaccharide fraction of lateral chains of EPO
    has been observed only in patients treated with rhEPO. Owing
    to the pulsatile pattern of GH, particularly during physical
    exercise, pathologically high values may be found in normal
    subjects. Therefore, as in the case of EPO, evidence of GH
    abuse can be gathered only indirectly by detecting the
    biological effects of its administration. In training
    subjects GH treatment increased GH, IGF-I, IGFBP-3 and ALS,
    and decreased IGBP-2. After cessation of treatment IGF-I,
    IGFBP-3 and ALS approached basal values between 49 and 96 h.
    Also the bone parameters PICP ICIP, PIUP and osteocalcin
    increased significantly. Four days after cessation of
    treatment, levels of PIIIP and ICTP were still abnormally
    elevated. In conclusion, increases in IGF-I, IGFBP-3, ALS,
    PIIIP and ICTP are all indicative of recent GH abuse or of
    acromegaly.

    The name acromegaly comes from the Greek words for
    "extremities" and "enlargement" and reflects one of its most
    common symptoms, the abnormal growth of the hands and feet.
    Soft tissue swelling of the hands and feet is often an early
    feature, with patients noticing a change in ring or shoe
    size. Gradually, bony changes alter the patient's facial
    features: the brow and lower jaw protrude, the nasal bone
    enlarges, and spacing of the teeth increases.

    Quoted message said:

    "Still, even the EPO test has loopholes: It can reach back
    and detect the drug for only three or four days, according
    to Olivier Rabin, science director at the World Anti-
    Doping Agency (WADA). But an athlete could reap benefits
    for as long as two weeks, Rabin and other experts said.

    There is thus a lengthy period when users enjoy athletic
    advantage without risking detection. Rabin suspects some
    cyclists take a high dose of EPO and stop at least three
    days before the race begins, a strategy mirrored in other
    sports and a prime illustration of how the cheaters stay
    one step ahead of the testers. "

  12. "warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article
    <[email hidden]>, Tom

    Kunich said:

    Rumor had it that Pantani had grown an allergy to EPO
    causing his body


    to

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    distroy the naturally low amounts in his body and was
    forced to take EPO


    to

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    survive. Now that would be truely pitiful for some third
    rank domestique


    to

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    destroy his own life in order to carry water bottles for
    Simoni.

    As opposed to driving a delivery truck in the city all day
    breathing deisel exhaust, or working in a toll booth?

    I'll tell you Warren, as I get closer to retirement I sort
    of long for those manual labor type jobs that don't require
    so damned much out of you as management.

  13. In article <[email hidden]>, Tom

    Kunich said:

    "warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article
    <[email hidden]>,

    Tom Kunich said:

    Rumor had it that Pantani had grown an allergy to EPO
    causing his body


    to

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    distroy the naturally low amounts in his body and was
    forced to take EPO


    to

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    survive. Now that would be truely pitiful for some
    third rank domestique


    to

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    destroy his own life in order to carry water bottles
    for Simoni.

    As opposed to driving a delivery truck in the city all
    day breathing deisel exhaust, or working in a toll
    booth?

    I'll tell you Warren, as I get closer to retirement I sort
    of long for those manual labor type jobs that don't
    require so damned much out of you as management.

    I hear similar sentiments from friends that are recently
    retired or about to. Some have gotten fun jobs like in the
    camping department at REI or selling kitchen cabinets at
    Home Depot.

    Just a warning though if you ever resume racing, most of the
    good 55+ guys are essentially retired so they have all the
    time they want to train.

    -WG

  14. warren said:

    I hear similar sentiments from friends that are recently
    retired or about to. Some have gotten fun jobs like in the
    camping department at REI or selling kitchen cabinets at
    Home Depot.

    Goddamnit, the Masters are taking all the good jobs at
    REI leaving no options for the 23 year olds except the
    12K dream.

    F-cking Baby Boomer [censored].

    Quoted message said:

    Just a warning though if you ever resume racing, most of
    the good 55+ guys are essentially retired so they have all
    the time they want to train.

    See what I mean. Plus they have the Nest Eggs to afford the
    best bikes, best coaches, best dope (not that I can tell
    good dope from bad dope). And paid-off houses in California.
    Only another NASDAQ crash can restore parity, if that.

  15. No kidding! I chear every time I see the price of gas go up.

    Bring on the $12/gallon gasoline!

    Benjamin Weiner said:
    warren said:

    I hear similar sentiments from friends that are recently
    retired or about to. Some have gotten fun jobs like in the
    camping department at REI or selling kitchen cabinets at
    Home Depot.

    Goddamnit, the Masters are taking all the good jobs at
    REI leaving no options for the 23 year olds except the
    12K dream.

    F-cking Baby Boomer [censored].

    Quoted message said:

    Just a warning though if you ever resume racing, most of
    the good 55+ guys are essentially retired so they have all
    the time they want to train.

    See what I mean. Plus they have the Nest Eggs to afford
    the best bikes, best coaches, best dope (not that I can
    tell good dope from bad dope). And paid-off houses in
    California. Only another NASDAQ crash can restore parity,
    if that.

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