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2 Questions About Doping

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Road Cycling
Published
25 June 2004
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27 June 2004
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Eric Lambi
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  1. 1) How does someone on the out of competition list (i.e. David
    Millar), make it through drug controls without getting caught if he
    was on EPO. I can see someone who knows when and where they will be
    tested making it through controls, but don't know how someone who
    could get a surprise visit at any time passes.

    2) How is it possible that some Pro's could win races competing
    against other pro's who are drugged to the core? Or is it possible?
    Guys like Lance Armstrong and Jan Ulrich are incredibly talented, but
    I don't know how it would be possible for them to beat other riders
    who have almost as much talent, but also take drugs. Altitude can
    mimmick some or all of the affects of EPO, so maybe that is the
    answer?

  2. "Eric Lambi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    1) How does someone on the out of competition list (i.e. David
    Millar), make it through drug controls without getting caught if he
    was on EPO. I can see someone who knows when and where they will be
    tested making it through controls, but don't know how someone who
    could get a surprise visit at any time passes.


    Maybe the rashes on his legs were the giveaway?
    Hoping the Tour will not be a repeat of 98..
    Dan Gregory

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  3. Dan Gregory said:

    Hoping the Tour will not be a repeat of 98..

    Now that would be quite a comeback.

    --
    David N. Welton
    Personal: http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/
    Free Software: http://www.dedasys.com/freesoftware/
    Apache Tcl: http://tcl.apache.org/
    Photos: http://www.dedasys.com/photos/

  4. Eric Lambi said:

    1) How does someone on the out of competition list (i.e. David Millar),
    make it through drug controls without getting caught if he was on
    EPO. I can see someone who knows when and where they will be tested
    making it through controls, but don't know how someone who could get
    a surprise visit at any time passes.

    Apparently, his hematocrit levels never exceeded the threshold that
    constitutes a positive test for EPO.

    --

  5. Ted B said:

    Apparently, his hematocrit levels never exceeded the threshold that
    constitutes a positive test for EPO.

    There is no haematocrit level that constitutes a positive test for EPO.

  6. Ted B said:
    Eric Lambi said:

    1) How does someone on the out of competition list (i.e. David Millar),
    make it through drug controls without getting caught if he was on
    EPO. I can see someone who knows when and where they will be tested
    making it through controls, but don't know how someone who could get
    a surprise visit at any time passes.

    Apparently, his hematocrit levels never exceeded the threshold that
    constitutes a positive test for EPO.

    See, EPO is very difficult to detect because it's a naturally occurring
    substance in the body. It's somewhat similar to trying to test for
    testosterone - it's not a matter of if, but how much - that is, an
    unnatural level.

    -Sonarrat.

  7. "Eric Lambi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    1) How does someone on the out of competition list (i.e. David
    Millar), make it through drug controls without getting caught if he
    was on EPO. I can see someone who knows when and where they will be
    tested making it through controls, but don't know how someone who
    could get a surprise visit at any time passes.

    EPO is hard to detect except for a couple of days after you take it.
    Regardless of "out of competition testing" a rider would have to be
    incredibly unlucky to be caught using EPO. The dummy had some empty EPO
    vials in his house is how they nailed Millar.

    Quoted message said:

    2) How is it possible that some Pro's could win races competing
    against other pro's who are drugged to the core? Or is it possible?
    Guys like Lance Armstrong and Jan Ulrich are incredibly talented, but
    I don't know how it would be possible for them to beat other riders
    who have almost as much talent, but also take drugs. Altitude can
    mimmick some or all of the affects of EPO, so maybe that is the
    answer?

    Unless you're willing to believe that Andy Hampsten, Brad McGee, Charly
    Mottet and others who have proclaimed themselves clean and disgusted by the
    use of drugs in the sport, are in reality drug users it stands to reason
    that if you have enough talent you don't need the drugs.

    Now surely I've gone through it enough here that people realize that using
    EPO improves a riders performance but doesn't make him a superman? There are
    super riders that have surprisingly low hematocrits. There are so many
    complicating factors involved with the oxygen uptake of the body that EPO
    can only be assumed to be at least as dangerous as it is performance
    enhancing.

    Rumor had it that Pantani had grown an allergy to EPO causing his body to
    distroy the naturally low amounts in his body and was forced to take EPO to
    survive. Now that would be truely pitiful for some third rank domestique to
    destroy his own life in order to carry water bottles for Simoni.

  8. Quoted message said:

    2) How is it possible that some Pro's could win races competing
    against other pro's who are drugged to the core? Or is it possible?

    The "good 'ol boy" network doesn't run cycling,
    just like [censored] cheney doesn't run Halliburton.

    I'm involved in the golf business and recently lost
    my job, and possibly career, because I complained
    about my boss coming into work drunk, and 3 hours late
    to work every day, for about the past 1 1/2 years.
    At almost every course I've worked at (around 9 now)
    I've had at least one boss with a drinking or
    drug problem.

    Face it, some businesses have "dirty little secrets", and
    the good 'ol boys will do everything and anything to
    keep those secrets from the public.

    If you speak up about it... your reputation will be attacked,
    you will be criticized and discredited as a nut, having
    personal problems or grudges to settle... You will loose
    your ability to earn a paycheck...

    Nobody likes a whistle blower! That's how it works...

  9. Quoted message said:

    2) How is it possible that some Pro's could win races competing
    against other pro's who are drugged to the core? Or is it possible?

    The "good 'ol boy" network doesn't run cycling,
    just like [censored] cheney doesn't run Halliburton.

    I'm involved in the golf business and recently lost
    my job, and possibly career, because I complained
    about my boss coming into work drunk, and 3 hours late
    to work every day, for about the past 1 1/2 years.
    At almost every course I've worked at (around 9 now)
    I've had at least one boss with a drinking or
    drug problem.

    Face it, some businesses have "dirty little secrets", and
    the good 'ol boys will do everything and anything to
    keep those secrets from the public.

    If you speak up about it... your reputation will be attacked,
    you will be criticized and discredited as a nut, having
    personal problems or grudges to settle... You will loose
    your ability to earn a paycheck...

    Nobody likes a whistle blower! That's how it works...

  10. [email hidden] (Eric Lambi) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    1) How does someone on the out of competition list (i.e. David
    Millar), make it through drug controls without getting caught if he
    was on EPO. I can see someone who knows when and where they will be
    tested making it through controls, but don't know how someone who
    could get a surprise visit at any time passes.

    http://www.how-to-pass-a-drug-test.net/2004/drug-detection-time-urine.htm

    "Still, even the EPO test has loopholes: It can reach back and detect
    the drug for only three or four days, according to Olivier Rabin,
    science director at the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA). But an
    athlete could reap benefits for as long as two weeks, Rabin and other
    experts said.

    There is thus a lengthy period when users enjoy athletic advantage
    without risking detection. Rabin suspects some cyclists take a high
    dose of EPO and stop at least three days before the race begins, a
    strategy mirrored in other sports and a prime illustration of how the
    cheaters stay one step ahead of the testers. "

  11. In article <[email hidden]>, Tom

    Kunich said:

    Rumor had it that Pantani had grown an allergy to EPO causing his body to
    distroy the naturally low amounts in his body and was forced to take EPO to
    survive. Now that would be truely pitiful for some third rank domestique to
    destroy his own life in order to carry water bottles for Simoni.

    As opposed to driving a delivery truck in the city all day breathing
    deisel exhaust, or working in a toll booth?

    -WG

  12. There is a lot of confusion regarding the EPO tests available.
    Currently there is the direct "pee test" that works only 3 to 4 days
    out; IOW you need to be dumb and unlucky to get caught. The other
    test is indirect and uses blood (its hard to get people to give this
    up) and looks for specific blood characteristics. Below is one such
    paper describing how they do this. Again, its hard to implement blood
    tests in any sport due to its invasive nature. owever, blood tests
    are very good for detecting drug use. I also included some work on
    hGH testing.

    Chris

    Detection of recombinant human erythropoietin abuse in athletes
    utilizing markers of altered erythropoiesis.

    Parisotto R, Wu M, Ashenden MJ, Emslie KR, Gore CJ, Howe C, Kazlauskas
    R, Sharpe K, Trout GJ, Xie M.

    Department of Physiology, Australian Institute of Sport, P.O. Box 176,
    Belconnen ACT 2616, Australia. [email hidden]

    BACKGROUND AND OBJECTIVES: The detection of recombinant human
    erythropoietin (r-HuEPO) abuse by athletes remains problematic. The
    main aim of this study was to demonstrate that the five indirect
    markers of altered erythropoiesis identified in our earlier work were
    reliable evidence of current or recently discontinued r-HuEPO use. A
    subsidiary aim was to refine weightings of the five markers in the
    initial model using a much larger data set than in the pilot study. A
    final aim was to verify that the hematologic response to r-HuEPO did
    not differ between Caucasian and Asiatic subjects. DESIGN AND METHODS:
    Recreational athletes resident in Sydney, Australia (Sydney, n = 49;
    16 women, 33 men) or Beijing, China (Beijing, n=24; 12 women, 12 men)
    were randomly assigned to r-HuEPO or placebo groups prior to a 25 day
    administration phase. Injections of r-HuEPO (or saline) were
    administered double-blind at a dose of 50 IU/kg three times per week,
    with oral iron (105 mg) or placebo supplements taken daily by all
    subjects. Blood profiles were monitored during and for 4 weeks after
    drug administration for hematocrit (Hct), reticulocyte hematocrit
    (RetHct), percent macrocytes (%Macro), serum erythropoietin (EPO) and
    soluble transferrin receptor (sTfr), since we had previously shown
    that these five variables were indicative of r-HuEPO use. RESULTS. The
    changes in Hct, RetHct, %Macro, EPO and sTfr in the Sydney trial were
    qualitatively very similar to the changes noted in our previous
    administration trial involving recreational athletes of similar
    genetic origin. Statistical models developed from Fisher's
    discriminant analysis were able to categorize the user and placebo
    groups correctly. The same hematologic response was demonstrated in
    Beijing athletes also administered r-HuEPO. INTERPRETATION AND
    CONCLUSIONS: This paper confirms that r-HuEPO administration causes a
    predictable and reproducible hematologic response. These markers are
    disturbed both during and for several weeks following r-HuEPO
    administration. This work establishes an indirect blood test which
    offers a useful means of detecting and deterring r-HuEPO abuse.
    Ethnicity did not influence the markers identified as being able to
    detect athletes who abuse r-HuEPO.

    Indirect evidence of hormone abuse. Proof of doping?

    Minuto F, Barreca A, Melioli G.

    Chair of Endocrinology, DiSEM, University of Genova, Italy.
    [email hidden]

    Besides anabolic steroids, the most common performance-enhancing
    hormones are erythropoietin (EPO), insulin, GH, and gonadotropins,
    mostly indistinguishable from endogenous hormones and with very short
    half-life. This makes virtually impossible to demonstrate their use by
    measuring their concentration in the blood or urine. A possible
    approach to the problem may lie in in-direct demonstration through
    detection of the biological effects of these substances. The finding
    of an increased hematocrit level is suspicious but not clearly
    demonstrative of EPO abuse. Very high levels of circulating EPO could
    be associated with a strong suspicion of doping, when associated to
    other abnormal parameters, such as Ht, sTFRr, EPO, RDW. The presence
    of antibodies against the polysaccharide fraction of lateral chains of
    EPO has been observed only in patients treated with rhEPO. Owing to
    the pulsatile pattern of GH, particularly during physical exercise,
    pathologically high values may be found in normal subjects. Therefore,
    as in the case of EPO, evidence of GH abuse can be gathered only
    indirectly by detecting the biological effects of its administration.
    In training subjects GH treatment increased GH, IGF-I, IGFBP-3 and
    ALS, and decreased IGBP-2. After cessation of treatment IGF-I, IGFBP-3
    and ALS approached basal values between 49 and 96 h. Also the bone
    parameters PICP ICIP, PIUP and osteocalcin increased significantly.
    Four days after cessation of treatment, levels of PIIIP and ICTP were
    still abnormally elevated. In conclusion, increases in IGF-I, IGFBP-3,
    ALS, PIIIP and ICTP are all indicative of recent GH abuse or of
    acromegaly.

    The name acromegaly comes from the Greek words for "extremities" and
    "enlargement" and reflects one of its most common symptoms, the
    abnormal growth of the hands and feet. Soft tissue swelling of the
    hands and feet is often an early feature, with patients noticing a
    change in ring or shoe size. Gradually, bony changes alter the
    patient's facial features: the brow and lower jaw protrude, the nasal
    bone enlarges, and spacing of the teeth increases.

    Quoted message said:

    "Still, even the EPO test has loopholes: It can reach back and detect
    the drug for only three or four days, according to Olivier Rabin,
    science director at the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA). But an
    athlete could reap benefits for as long as two weeks, Rabin and other
    experts said.

    There is thus a lengthy period when users enjoy athletic advantage
    without risking detection. Rabin suspects some cyclists take a high
    dose of EPO and stop at least three days before the race begins, a
    strategy mirrored in other sports and a prime illustration of how the
    cheaters stay one step ahead of the testers. "

  13. "warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, Tom

    Kunich said:

    Rumor had it that Pantani had grown an allergy to EPO causing his body


    to

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    distroy the naturally low amounts in his body and was forced to take EPO


    to

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    survive. Now that would be truely pitiful for some third rank domestique


    to

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    destroy his own life in order to carry water bottles for Simoni.

    As opposed to driving a delivery truck in the city all day breathing
    deisel exhaust, or working in a toll booth?

    I'll tell you Warren, as I get closer to retirement I sort of long for those
    manual labor type jobs that don't require so damned much out of you as
    management.

  14. In article <[email hidden]>, Tom

    Kunich said:

    "warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, Tom

    Kunich said:

    Rumor had it that Pantani had grown an allergy to EPO causing his body


    to

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    distroy the naturally low amounts in his body and was forced to take EPO


    to

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    survive. Now that would be truely pitiful for some third rank domestique


    to

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    destroy his own life in order to carry water bottles for Simoni.

    As opposed to driving a delivery truck in the city all day breathing
    deisel exhaust, or working in a toll booth?

    I'll tell you Warren, as I get closer to retirement I sort of long for those
    manual labor type jobs that don't require so damned much out of you as
    management.

    I hear similar sentiments from friends that are recently retired or
    about to. Some have gotten fun jobs like in the camping department at
    REI or selling kitchen cabinets at Home Depot.

    Just a warning though if you ever resume racing, most of the good 55+
    guys are essentially retired so they have all the time they want to
    train.

    -WG

  15. warren said:

    I hear similar sentiments from friends that are recently retired or
    about to. Some have gotten fun jobs like in the camping department at
    REI or selling kitchen cabinets at Home Depot.

    Goddamnit, the Masters are taking all the good jobs at REI
    leaving no options for the 23 year olds except the 12K dream.

    F-cking Baby Boomer [censored].

    Quoted message said:

    Just a warning though if you ever resume racing, most of the good 55+
    guys are essentially retired so they have all the time they want to
    train.

    See what I mean. Plus they have the Nest Eggs to afford the
    best bikes, best coaches, best dope (not that I can tell good
    dope from bad dope). And paid-off houses in California.
    Only another NASDAQ crash can restore parity, if that.

  16. No kidding!
    I chear every time I see the price of gas go up.

    Bring on the $12/gallon gasoline!

    Benjamin Weiner said:
    warren said:

    I hear similar sentiments from friends that are recently retired or
    about to. Some have gotten fun jobs like in the camping department at
    REI or selling kitchen cabinets at Home Depot.

    Goddamnit, the Masters are taking all the good jobs at REI
    leaving no options for the 23 year olds except the 12K dream.

    F-cking Baby Boomer [censored].

    Quoted message said:

    Just a warning though if you ever resume racing, most of the good 55+
    guys are essentially retired so they have all the time they want to
    train.

    See what I mean. Plus they have the Nest Eggs to afford the
    best bikes, best coaches, best dope (not that I can tell good
    dope from bad dope). And paid-off houses in California.
    Only another NASDAQ crash can restore parity, if that.

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