1997, it was so long ago

jhuskey said:

In 1997 Bill Clinton had just started his second term,Princess Diana and Mother Teresa passed on.The UK turned Hong Kong over to China.
The 2001 terrorist attack was far from anyones concern in the US,The Terminator was still The Terminator and not The Governator,Lance Armstrong was only known in small circles and a lot of other things happened including a young ridder named Jan won the TDF.
It has been a long time as many things have changed for myself.
If Ullrich could pull off a win it would be historic,as far as I can tell.
I mean a few have fought back for non-consecutive wins like Anquetil,Lemond,Mange and Hinault, but as far as I know no one has won after such a large gap in time maybe four years but not nine.
If you knew no other facts except the time gap you would probably doubt his chances on this fact alone.
Of course people doubted that anyone could beat the five time winner record and it has been busted wide open.
Experience versus youth. We shall see!

Yes it's long ago, but i am convinced Jan can win the TdF again!

Yes and there was an american cyclist who was fatter ! 🙂

jhuskey said:

In 1997 Bill Clinton had just started his second term,Princess Diana and Mother Teresa passed on.The UK turned Hong Kong over to China.
The 2001 terrorist attack was far from anyones concern in the US,The Terminator was still The Terminator and not The Governator,Lance Armstrong was only known in small circles and a lot of other things happened including a young ridder named Jan won the TDF.
It has been a long time as many things have changed for myself.
If Ullrich could pull off a win it would be historic,as far as I can tell.
I mean a few have fought back for non-consecutive wins like Anquetil,Lemond,Mange and Hinault, but as far as I know no one has won after such a large gap in time maybe four years but not nine.
If you knew no other facts except the time gap you would probably doubt his chances on this fact alone.
Of course people doubted that anyone could beat the five time winner record and it has been busted wide open.
Experience versus youth. We shall see!

jhuskey said:

If Ullrich could pull off a win it would be historic,as far as I can tell.
I mean a few have fought back for non-consecutive wins like Anquetil,Lemond,Mange and Hinault, but as far as I know no one has won after such a large gap in time maybe four years but not nine.

I've often said that a TdF win for Ullrich now would be far more significant to his cycling legacy than merely one more Grand Tour title. Many have unfairly defined his career to date as "the guy who couldn't beat Armstrong" in the TdF. Of course, that's very uncharitable, considering no one else could do it either. If Jan could summon whatever it takes to win it this year, he will have TdF wins that bracket all of Armstrong's successes (with Pantani thrown in there in 1998 of course). Essentially, despite all the peaks and valleys in his career, he would be able to have reached the summit before Armstrong, and still have the legs to climb all the way up again after him as well. I'll be rooting hard for Ullrich in July, although as I've said, Basso seems so spry and on form these days, even with the difficulty of pulling a double, I think he's the man to beat barring injury or illness.

Jan's climbing skills have been on the gradual decline. I don't expect him to suddenly rebound in the mountains. If he can find his form of 2003, I predict he will challenge Basso. However, I still don't think he will win. Not without a defaillance from Basso.

whiteboytrash said:

Yes and there was an american cyclist who was fatter ! 🙂

You're attachment is from the 1996 TDF.

Great photo - if only for illustrative purposes.

I do not believe Jan's climbing skills have decreased if you consider that the last TDF was the fastest ever.
It's just that a couple of other's skills increased.

jhuskey said:

In 1997 Bill Clinton had just started his second term,Princess Diana and Mother Teresa passed on.The UK turned Hong Kong over to China.
The 2001 terrorist attack was far from anyones concern in the US,The Terminator was still The Terminator and not The Governator,Lance Armstrong was only known in small circles and a lot of other things happened including a young ridder named Jan won the TDF.
It has been a long time as many things have changed for myself.
If Ullrich could pull off a win it would be historic,as far as I can tell.
I mean a few have fought back for non-consecutive wins like Anquetil,Lemond,Mange and Hinault, but as far as I know no one has won after such a large gap in time maybe four years but not nine.
If you knew no other facts except the time gap you would probably doubt his chances on this fact alone.
Of course people doubted that anyone could beat the five time winner record and it has been busted wide open.
Experience versus youth. We shall see!

There is precedence.
The great Italian cyclist Gino Bartali won the TDF in 1938 and 1948 (the biggest gap between wins, ever, in the TDF).

But now that you put it in a contemporaneous time frame (Princess Di, Clinton etc), 1997 is a long time ago.

It could argued that Ullrich should have won the 1996 TDF - as Riis was beginning to struggle in the final stages of the 1996 TDF and it's generally accepted that Ullrich was going better than Riis in the final stages.

I think you pose a very interesting question : experience versus youth.

Basso has made really steady progress in the TDF (10, 7th, 4th and 2nd if I recall) in the past few years.

I agree with CJ, the light is beginning to slightly fade for JU - and it will be a tough assignment for him to withstand the Basso factor.
Throw in the likes of Landis/Vino/Valverde and the mix becomes more complex.

Ullrich's advantage is that he is the only man in the field to have actually won the TDF.
That is a distinct advantage he has over the field.

I will be cheering Ullrich on - but I have a lot of respect for Basso.
He's a breath of fresh air as regards this sport - his demeanour, his interaction with the supporters and fans and his regard for his fellow competitors, is in the tradition of our sport and is a welcome return to all that is good in our sport.

In a sport that has had it credibility shredded in 1999 - 2005 and in which cycling has been made a laughing stock, I hope that we're on the crest of a new and better era.

limerickman said:

You're attachment is from the 1996 TDF.

Great photo - if only for illustrative purposes.

How about this one ?

Catabolic_Jones said:

Jan's climbing skills have been on the gradual decline. I don't expect him to suddenly rebound in the mountains. If he can find his form of 2003, I predict he will challenge Basso. However, I still don't think he will win. Not without a defaillance from Basso.

Jan had some bad days in 2004 and 2005 and I expect he could lose time in the mountains to Basso / Valverde / maybe Menchov (if climbs like he did at last year's Vuelta). But he seems on course to ride very, very strong TTs. I think this year's race is very much a race for him.

I also expect it entirely possible to see neither Basso nor Ullrich win this year's Tour. This is a good course for Vino -- if Liberty sorts out its issues. And Menchov and Mancebo are possibilities. As is a big showing from Valverde or Landis. I think there are many men who could surprise this year.

limerickman said:

In a sport that has had it credibility shredded in 1999 - 2005 and in which cycling has been made a laughing stock, I hope that we're on the crest of a new and better era.

Don't you know that cycling has existed before 1999 and since 2005? 🙄 The Festina nonsense happened in 1998, and Saiz was arrested last week. Odd that you'd forget those years, unless you had some other motive for defining the "shattered credibility" of the sport to coincide with the glory years of a specific cyclist.

"New and better era" my a$$. 😎

rejobako said:

Don't you know that cycling has existed before 1999 and since 2005? The Festina nonsense happened in 1998, and Saiz was arrested last week. Odd that you'd forget those years, unless you had some other motive for defining the "shattered credibility" of the sport to coincide with the glory years of a specific cyclist.

"New and better era" my a$$.

New and better era is what the sport needs.

Or maybe you prefer doping (and wheelsucking!)

limerickman said:

In a sport that has had it credibility shredded in 1999 - 2005 and in which cycling has been made a laughing stock, I hope that we're on the crest of a new and better era.

No one needs to ask why you chose those years to make your example, but if by "credibility" you mean the peloton was relatively clean or was perceived to be so, you're completely mistaken. The entire history of pro cycling has been one of evolving techniques of doping and evolving attitudes about it among riders and fans.

"Put me back on my bike"

DiabloScott said:

No one needs to ask why you chose those years to make your example, but if by "credibility" you mean the peloton was relatively clean or was perceived to be so, you're completely mistaken. The entire history of pro cycling has been one of evolving techniques of doping and evolving attitudes about it among riders and fans.

"Put me back on my bike"

In 1968 (following Tom Simpson death at the TDF) we had the "Tour of Hope".

In 1979 (following Michel Pollentiers failed test) we had the "Tour of (I can't remember).

In 1999 (following Festina) we had the "Tour of Renewal".

As you correctly point out doping has been prevalent throughout :
some of us here said that doping was widespread since 1999 "Tour of Renewal"
Those of us expressing that view that doping was prevalent were castigated here.
Unfortunately, evidence and tests have proven us correct.

I sincerely hope that with the advent of this new era, that the sport is cleaner and better.
As fans we should all wish for this.

limerickman said:

In a sport that has had it credibility shredded in 1999 - 2005 and in which cycling has been made a laughing stock, I hope that we're on the crest of a new and better era.

And who shattered this sport????

Simpson ????

How about Merckx ?..... A fraud..... Nothing but a fraud.

Armstrong was a breath of fresh air to a sport that just underwent a Festina scandal prior to Armstrong......

Armstrong brought more world wide attention to the sport then anyone.

It's credability right now is on the line because of the Spanish.....

limerickman said:

You're attachment is from the 1996 TDF.

Great photo - if only for illustrative purposes.

Wrong again, it was from San Sebastien.
i already posted it over a week ago.
It show how thin Jan was when he was in the right shape.
Actually Lance looks big not fat.
Intresting to realize he was already sick then.
Think about that and how much he has done for cancer survivors.
Kinda makes the rest pale in comparison.

jhuskey said:

I do not believe Jan's climbing skills have decreased if you consider that the last TDF was the fastest ever.
It's just that a couple of other's skills increased.

I think you're right.

limerickman said:

It could argued that Ullrich should have won the 1996 TDF - as Riis was beginning to struggle in the final stages of the 1996 TDF and it's generally accepted that Ullrich was going better than Riis in the final stages.

I don't think this is right. Riis only struggled on the final time trial. The second to last mountain stage was the one to Hautecam, where Riis destoyed the competition, and the last one was to Pamplona, where Riis and Ullrich worked together to gain Ullrich the 2nd place, because the peloton had split up on one of the early mountains, leaving Olano, Rominger and Indurain behind. Riis ended up leaving the group along with Dufeaux, whom he finished second to. He never struggled in the mountains. I don't know how you can say that's generally accepted.

K'Ching said:

I don't think this is right. Riis only struggled on the final time trial. The second to last mountain stage was the one to Hautecam, where Riis destoyed the competition, and the last one was to Pamplona, where Riis and Ullrich worked together to gain Ullrich the 2nd place, because the peloton had split up on one of the early mountains, leaving Olano, Rominger and Indurain behind. Riis ended up leaving the group along with Dufeaux, whom he finished second to. He never struggled in the mountains. I don't know how you can say that's generally accepted.

I agree, and what is "more" general accepted is that without Riis, Ullrich probably wouldn't have won the TdF in 1997.

Sam Abt's book "Pedalling for Glory" published in 1997 puts forward the point that JU was carrying Riis toward the end of the race.

I'd have to dig out the old ES tapes to verify this.
It's so long since I saw that race on film.