11 weeks to race day

Tony said:

I'm finalizing my training plan for long runs and
speedwork through the summer up to race day. All long
runs will be done at least 1/2 on trails. I just
started 'formal' speedwork Tuesday. My goal is to get
both my endurance and my LT up for the race. I won't
set a time goal, but I will try to focus on what HR I
think I can sustain for the race. My goal training week
looks like this:

mon: easy day: cycle < 60 or walk or rest tues: run flats
with speedwork ~ 60 mins wed: cycle 60-120 mins aerobic
thur: run flats or trails 50-80 mins aerobic fri: easy
day: cycle < 60 or walk or rest sat: long run/bike every
other week, if bike try to run 40 mins+ in morning before
going sun: if biked long the day before, trail run of 60-
80 mins easy if ran long the day before, short run 30-40
mins with optional bike
< 60mins

Long runs and bikes and speedwork plans follow: wk end
Event Time Speedwrk
5/29 ran 4:02 fartlek
6/05 biked 2:05 fartlek
6/12 ran 3:05 fartlek
6/19 biked 3:30 fartlek Planned
6/26 run 3:30 2 x 10'
7/03 bike 4:00 3 x 7'
7/10 run 3:50 4 x 7'
7/17 24 hr ROGAINE (will walk) 3 x 10'
7/24 run 4:10 4 x 7'
7/31 bike 4:00 3 x 10'
8/07 run 4:30 2 x 15'
8/14 bike 4:00 4 x 7'
8/21 run 3:45 3 x 10'
8/28 bike 3:30 4 x 7'
9/04 run 2:00 3 x 8'
9/11 Race day, 50 km trail run Punxsutawney PA

Questions:

Would it be better to do speedwork on thursday with rest
day friday followed by long event, or keep it tuesday?

I doubt it matters. Either choice is fine.

Quoted message said:

How do my intervals look? I plan on doing them all at 10k
or 5k race pace feel depending on how I'm going that day,
just above LTHR. With 2 10 min intervals I did a 5 min
rest, with 7' intervals I would do 3 min rests. I don't
want to over do it on speedwork, so all combinations are
<~30 mins. Any suggestions welcome.

Those intervals look long if you want to get close to 5k
race pace -- if you did that, the interval sessions would be
as hard as a race.

The reps and duration look about right for LT work (10k-
half marathon pace). I'd suggest 5 minutes or less if you
want to do them faster, but given your goals and
constraints on recovery, I think placing the emphasis on LT
training makes sense.

Quoted message said:

Any thoughts on how I can determine my target HR for race
day? All I know

Sorry, none.

Quoted message said:

Also when its hot my rule-of-thumb is to allow my HR to
drift up 5 beats above my target zone in training, but no
more. If I allow the same drift on a hot race day would
that kill me 3 hours in?

A rule of thumb (Glover's book) is to expect to lose 1
second per mile per degree above 60 degrees. This works
reasonably well for "the typical runner", from fairly fast
runners (e.g. 2:40 marathoners) to midpackers.

In other words, be prepared to go out really slowly if it's
hot. Your heart rate monitor may mislead to you, at least
until you've been out there long enough to heat up.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

"Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Would it be better to do speedwork on thursday with rest
day friday

followed

Quoted message said:

by long event, or keep it tuesday?

I'll answer it this way, the long run(assuming hills of
course) is your bread and butter and the single most
important factor in your training. Doing some speed will
help but it's icing on the cake. Having said that, if doing
your speed work on Thursday, even with a Friday rest, still
leaves you flat for your long run, do it on Tuesday. If you
feel fully recovered after a Thursday speed day then the
either is fine. Long runs and hikes plus some tempo.

Quoted message said:

How do my intervals look? I plan on doing them all at 10k
or 5k race

pace

Quoted message said:

feel depending on how I'm going that day, just above LTHR.
With 2 10

min

Quoted message said:

intervals I did a 5 min rest, with 7' intervals I would
do 3 min

rests. I

Quoted message said:

don't want to over do it on speed work, so all
combinations are <~30

mins.

Quoted message said:

Any suggestions welcome.

Intervals at a 5/10k pace will help with some efficiency but
to be perfectly honest I think undulating tempo runs would
give you a bigger bang for the buck than track time.

Quoted message said:

Any thoughts on how I can determine my target HR for race
day? All I

know

Quoted message said:

is I will be running over 5 hours. I don't have a clear
idea what HR

I

Quoted message said:

could sustain in a 5+ hour race.

Also when its hot my rule-of-thumb is to allow my HR to
drift up 5

beats

Quoted message said:

above my target zone in training, but no more. If I allow
the same

drift on

Quoted message said:

a hot race day would that kill me 3 hours in?

No comment since I don't use any external devices and
have learned to feel pace and effort. Rhetorical but what
would you do if your HRM died the morning of the race -
totally lost?

Anyway, I'll see you at Punxy.

-Doug

Doug Freese wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

"Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Would it be better to do speedwork on thursday with rest
day friday

followed

Quoted message said:

by long event, or keep it tuesday?

I'll answer it this way, the long run(assuming hills of
course) is your bread and butter and the single most
important factor in your training. Doing some speed will
help but it's icing on the cake. Having said that, if doing
your speed work on Thursday, even with a Friday rest, still
leaves you flat for your long run, do it on Tuesday. If you
feel fully recovered after a Thursday speed day then the
either is fine. Long runs and hikes plus some tempo.

Point well taken. Reading and participating in this
newsgroup has helped inspire me to set a goal and try to
somewhat properly train for it. This is really the first
time I'm doing long runs consistently with a goal in mind.
The every other week long run seems to be about right.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How do my intervals look? I plan on doing them all at 10k
or 5k race

pace

Quoted message said:

feel depending on how I'm going that day, just above
LTHR. With 2 10

min

Quoted message said:

intervals I did a 5 min rest, with 7' intervals I would
do 3 min

rests. I

Quoted message said:

don't want to over do it on speed work, so all
combinations are <~30

mins.

Quoted message said:

Any suggestions welcome.

Intervals at a 5/10k pace will help with some efficiency
but to be perfectly honest I think undulating tempo runs
would give you a bigger bang for the buck than track time.

Well, since I really don't enjoy running at anaerobic
threshold pace, I know I wont put in strong enough efforts
unless I make some attempt to measure them. But if I get
bored with intervals I may go back to the fartleks.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Any thoughts on how I can determine my target HR for race
day? All I

know

Quoted message said:

is I will be running over 5 hours. I don't have a clear
idea what HR

I

Quoted message said:

could sustain in a 5+ hour race.

Also when its hot my rule-of-thumb is to allow my HR to
drift up 5

beats

Quoted message said:

above my target zone in training, but no more. If I allow
the same

drift on

Quoted message said:

a hot race day would that kill me 3 hours in?

No comment since I don't use any external devices and
have learned to feel pace and effort. Rhetorical but what
would you do if your HRM died the morning of the race -
totally lost?

Anyway, I'll see you at Punxy.

LoL - no I'm not a slave to the HRM, though I guess I've
gotten used to it. It just keeps me from going too hard. In
the past I've ignored it during shorter races for the most
part and just record the data for later. I think it can be
of some use to start slow.

- Tony

Quoted message said:

-Doug

Donovan Rebbechi wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Tony said:

I'm finalizing my training plan for long runs and
speedwork through the summer up to race day. All long
runs will be done at least 1/2 on trails.

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

just started 'formal' speedwork Tuesday. My goal is to
get both my endurance and my LT up for the race. I won't
set a time goal, but I will try to focus on what HR I
think I can sustain for the race. My goal training week
looks like this:

mon: easy day: cycle < 60 or walk or rest tues: run flats
with speedwork ~ 60 mins wed: cycle 60-120 mins aerobic
thur: run flats or trails 50-80 mins aerobic fri: easy
day: cycle < 60 or walk or rest sat: long run/bike every
other week, if bike try to run 40 mins+ in morning before
going sun: if biked long the day before, trail run of 60-
80 mins easy if ran long the day before, short run 30-40
mins with optional

bike

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

< 60mins

Long runs and bikes and speedwork plans follow: wk end
Event Time Speedwrk
5/29 ran 4:02 fartlek
6/05 biked 2:05 fartlek
6/12 ran 3:05 fartlek
6/19 biked 3:30 fartlek Planned
6/26 run 3:30 2 x 10'
7/03 bike 4:00 3 x 7'
7/10 run 3:50 4 x 7'
7/17 24 hr ROGAINE (will walk) 3 x 10'
7/24 run 4:10 4 x 7'
7/31 bike 4:00 3 x 10'
8/07 run 4:30 2 x 15'
8/14 bike 4:00 4 x 7'
8/21 run 3:45 3 x 10'
8/28 bike 3:30 4 x 7'
9/04 run 2:00 3 x 8'
9/11 Race day, 50 km trail run Punxsutawney PA

Questions:

Would it be better to do speedwork on thursday with rest
day friday

followed

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

by long event, or keep it tuesday?

I doubt it matters. Either choice is fine.

Quoted message said:

How do my intervals look? I plan on doing them all at 10k
or 5k race

pace

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

feel depending on how I'm going that day, just above
LTHR. With 2 10 min intervals I did a 5 min rest, with 7'
intervals I would do 3 min rests.

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

don't want to over do it on speedwork, so all
combinations are <~30 mins. Any suggestions welcome.

Those intervals look long if you want to get close to 5k
race pace -- if

you did

Quoted message said:

that, the interval sessions would be as hard as a race.

Would that be bad? Its like running a 5k with less stress
because of the rest periods. Probably I will do most of them
at 10k effort, with some at 5k effort just to mix it up.

Quoted message said:

The reps and duration look about right for LT work (10k-
half marathon

pace).

Quoted message said:

I'd suggest 5 minutes or less if you want to do them
faster, but given your goals and constraints on recovery, I
think placing the emphasis on LT

training

Quoted message said:

makes sense.

I think that if I had more mpw and a stronger base I would
do extensive endurance reps of more like 3 x 12' or 2 x 15'
at about LT effort. Rereading the old Janssen book section
on marathon training seems to point to longer intervals.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Any thoughts on how I can determine my target HR for race
day? All I

know

Quoted message said:

Sorry, none.

Also from reading Janssen today, the proper intensity for a
5+ hour race looks like it would be around lactate level 2
to 2.5 (lactate level 4 being the anaerobic threshold). For
me (according to the book) this would correspond to a HR of
165-168, based on my LTHR. While this seems a bit high to
me, during the 50 miler my HR was 158 for the first 6 hours
and I felt good for that part of the race. But I didn't
train properly for that (not much running base, no
speedwork, and sporadic 2 hour trail runs). Thus with more
running base, long runs and some LT work, maybe that HR
range will work for me. I will try it later during part of
my longer runs to test its effect.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Also when its hot my rule-of-thumb is to allow my HR to
drift up 5 beats above my target zone in training, but no
more. If I allow the same drift

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a hot race day would that kill me 3 hours in?

A rule of thumb (Glover's book) is to expect to lose 1
second per mile per degree above 60 degrees. This works
reasonably well for "the typical

runner",

Quoted message said:

from fairly fast runners (e.g. 2:40 marathoners) to
midpackers.

In other words, be prepared to go out really slowly if it's
hot. Your heart

rate

Quoted message said:

monitor may mislead to you, at least until you've been out
there long

enough to

Quoted message said:

heat up.

So you guys who do road races look at the temperature and
adjust your goal pace. Going out painfully slowly is my plan
if its hot. Thanks for the tips.

- Tony

Quoted message said:

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Tony said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Those intervals look long if you want to get close to 5k
race pace -- if you did that, the interval sessions would
be as hard as a race.

Would that be bad?

For a start, some of them like 3x10 are near-impossible to
do at 5k pace. Increasing the length of the reps beyond 5
minutes or so doesn't do a whole lot besides produce high
amounts of lactic acid. The idea of reps around 5k race pace
should be to get your heart rate up at close to max without
tiring yourself out more than necessary. 3-5 minutes is a
good duration for that.

Quoted message said:

Its like running a 5k with less stress because of the rest
periods.

Except that without the race setting, it's much harder.

Quoted message said:

Probably I will do most of them at 10k effort, with some
at 5k effort just to mix it up.

It might be worth having a good think about what these reps
are for. For LT training, you should go a little slower than
10k pace. For VO2 max training, you should be above 5k pace
(which means that you'll need to keep the reps down)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The reps and duration look about right for LT work (10k-
half marathon pace). I'd suggest 5 minutes or less if you
want to do them faster, but given your goals and
constraints on recovery, I think placing the emphasis on
LT training makes sense.

I think that if I had more mpw and a stronger base I would
do extensive endurance reps of more like 3 x 12' or 2 x
15' at about LT effort.

Might be a good idea anyway. 3x12 at LT is still easier than
25 minutes or more at 5k pace, and you're only doing speed
once a week anyway, so I wouldn't worry about these workouts
being too stressful.

Quoted message said:

Also from reading Janssen today, the proper intensity for
a 5+ hour race looks like it would be around lactate level
2 to 2.5 (lactate level 4 being the anaerobic threshold).
For me (according to the book) this would correspond to a
HR of 165-168, based on my LTHR. While this seems a bit
high to me, during the 50 miler my HR was 158 for the
first 6 hours and I felt good for that part of the race.
But I didn't train properly for that (not much running
base, no speedwork, and sporadic 2 hour trail runs). Thus
with more running base, long runs and some LT work, maybe
that HR range will work for me. I will try it later during
part of my longer runs to test its effect.

Good idea.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Donovan Rebbechi wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Tony said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Those intervals look long if you want to get close to 5k
race pace -- if you did that, the interval sessions would
be as hard as a race.

Would that be bad?

For a start, some of them like 3x10 are near-impossible to
do at 5k pace. Increasing the length of the reps beyond 5
minutes or so doesn't do a whole

lot

Quoted message said:

besides produce high amounts of lactic acid. The idea of
reps around 5k

race

Quoted message said:

pace should be to get your heart rate up at close to max
without tiring

yourself

Quoted message said:

out more than necessary. 3-5 minutes is a good duration
for that.

Quoted message said:

Its like running a 5k with less stress because of the
rest periods.

Except that without the race setting, it's much harder.

Quoted message said:

Probably I will do most of them at 10k effort, with some
at 5k effort

just to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

mix it up.

It might be worth having a good think about what these reps
are for. For LT training, you should go a little slower
than 10k pace. For VO2 max

training, you

Quoted message said:

should be above 5k pace (which means that you'll need to
keep the reps

down)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The reps and duration look about right for LT work (10k-
half marathon

pace).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'd suggest 5 minutes or less if you want to do them
faster, but given

your

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

goals and constraints on recovery, I think placing the
emphasis on LT training makes sense.

I think that if I had more mpw and a stronger base I
would do extensive endurance reps of more like 3 x 12' or
2 x 15' at about LT effort.

Might be a good idea anyway. 3x12 at LT is still easier
than 25 minutes or

more

Quoted message said:

at 5k pace, and you're only doing speed once a week anyway,
so I wouldn't

worry

Quoted message said:

about these workouts being too stressful.

Yes, I agree with you now 5k pace is too hard for those
length of reps. I was pretty beat at the end of the week
after doing those reps tuesday and thursday I did a mile too
fast when trying to work on form. I postponed my long run
one day as a result.

- Tony

Quoted message said:

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗