11 Sept

In article <[email hidden]>,

Donald Munro said:

William Asher said:

Quoted message said:

> But all's well that ends in oil wells.

Donald Munro said:

Quoted message said:

Must be a quote from Portrait of Shakespeare as neo-con.

Howard Kveck said:

That was Ben Franklin, damnit!

Ben Franklin was a neo-con ?

No, rbr standard is that Franklin gets credit for all phrases and quotes like the
above. That via Pom.

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Robert Chung said:

RonSonic said:

About the DD-214, if you claim as a major job qualification that you
graduated from Harvard, I want to see a transcript or at very least the
diploma. Not one semester's report card or a letter from a teacher.
Let's see THE document that defines your status as a student of that
school. The same applies to the DD-214, it is the definitive document
of a veteran's record. So much so, that Kerry's failure to release it
raises eyebrows on its own.

Then let your eyebrows down. He did release it, before the 2004 election.

No sir. He has not. He's released all sorts of notes, reports and such but not
the DD-214. He did release a letter dated during the Carter administration that
describes the condition of his discharge.

Ron

On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 17:22:01 -0700, Howard Kveck <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

RonSonic said:

He didn't dodge a damn thing. His father was a congressman and after John
McCain got captured nobody who was the son of anybody was ever going to be sent
to Vietnam. Al Gore and his dad pulled every string they had to get him assigned
as a correspondent and then only with full time guards and only for a couple of
months.

I realize that McCain's father and grandfather were admirals but I wonder how
much influence that would have had over Gore's deployment.

It was huge. McCain did not have much of a reputation prior to his capture, well
he had a lot of reputation that was mostly all bad. The Vietnamese tried very
hard to use him as a wedge and the brass were greatly relieved that he didn't
let it happen. They realized how narrowly they had dodged a tremendous PR
disaster and also how John McCain had been put in an incredibly difficult
situation, worse even than the other POWs. It was clear that anyone else's son
would be subject to the same or worse and very unlikely to handle it as well. So
there was a general prohibition on sending anyone prominent anywhere they might
possibly be captured.

Quoted message said:

And I haven't ever seen
any credible evidence that Gore had bodyguards while he was there. Anyway, he *did*
enlist on his own - that ought to be worth something, no?

I am not saying it was a bad thing, but the motivation was more his father's
re-election to the Senate than anything else. Otherwise, he might have stayed in
service a little longer and actually done something.

Quoted message said:

To me, any service that
was actually in Vietnam was certainly more dangerous than Bush's stateside tour,
even had he truly finished it. And the evidence does sure seem to indicate that he
didn't do what he was expected to.

There seem to be plenty of clay feet to go around and a few clear heroes. The
only credible claims I've seen that Bush was not active in his ANG duty all came
after his plane was being removed from service and he was redundant or would
require retraining and reassignment.

Ron

Howard Kveck said:

I think the definition of "chicken hawk" has evolved a bit, John. A person who
supports a war and sending others to fight it while being unwilling to go him or her
own self is mostly accurate. But what really nails it is having all that going on
while thinking that makes one courageous. In other words, puffing your chest out and
calling the people who aren't in favor of the war "weak" or "cowards" but not
putting your own neck on the line. There's at least one person who fits that bill in
here: Steve Taylor.

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Hey Howard
Lot's of them in the military too. Known as REMFS, Garret Troopers,
HEEEroos, etc...
The AF had a good size scandalabout it's officers in Italy flying over
into the Balkan area on a transport, not getting anywhere near combat,
then going home and giving themselves medals. Seems a lot of that is
still going on now too.
They've also watered down the qualifications for a lot of the awards
so it's easy to hand them out now.
More BS on that here along with another stellar performance from our
SecDef:
http://www.intel-dump.com/posts/1113580478.shtml

Lot's of Gung-Ho MFers sitting behind desks surrounded by massive
firepower or hundreds or even thousands of miles from combat. I can't
find the story right now, but the [censored] who trotted into one of the
smaller outposts on a visit and had the troops called out to stand in
ranks for an inspection was typical. They got hit with a couple of
mortar rounds while standing in parade formation at an installation
that was regularly under fire.
Morons R Us
Bill C

Ron Ruff said:

Ryan Cousineau said:

Number of people killed by the 9/11 terrorist attack: 2973
Coalition forces killed in Iraq since March 20, 2003: 2800 (or whatever
number it is).

Just to put it into perspective, about 40,000 people are killed every
year in the US from auto accidents... violent, sudden deaths. So... on
a national scale the number of people who died in 9/11, or the number
of coalition deaths (so far) in Iraq, are equivalent to about 1 month
of driving in the US.

There are a lot of things to criticize concerning the US invasion and
occupation of Iraq, but the *coalition* death toll isn't one of them.
In real wars (like WW2) over 60,000,000 were killed... a little over
half of them civilians.

That's exactly why the erosion of our rights and the constant fear
mongering is BS. Reality is that 9/11 was nothing more than a bloody
nose in the strategic historical context. The immense over-reaction is
ludicrous. It was a bigger single version of what large portions of the
globe have been living with, including Europe, for a long time now.
We knew the state that was harboring and supporting them. That made
them a legitimate target, and most of the world agreed including large
amounts of the Afghan people. Ask the Soviets who used every method
possible how much fun Afghanistan is when the people hate you. We've
had a free ride, but that's coming apart because these clowns headed us
off into a disaster.
There were millions of options for dealing with Iraq, but getting into
a huge mess while screwing Afghanistan over was about as stupid as it
gets. Since our troops are tied down, Nato is begging for help and the
Taleban movement is growing since almost none of the promises have been
delivered on.
Smooth Moves.
The scale of greed, stupidity, callousness, and wanton disregard for
the Country's best interests, rather than those of Haliburton,
Blackwater, and the rest is unbelievable.
Not sure if it's treason to dump the Country into a war to promote
your friends profits and special interests, it might be worse, but the
Spanish-American war fits the same bill pretty well.
Convenient how the Maine blew up, huh? Amazing how bad that intel,
that we all heard about, was compared to all the stuff they ignored and
buried?
Bill C

RonSonic said:

On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 20:02:18 -0700, "Robert Chung" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

RonSonic said:

About the DD-214, if you claim as a major job qualification that you
graduated from Harvard, I want to see a transcript or at very least
the diploma. Not one semester's report card or a letter from a
teacher. Let's see THE document that defines your status as a student
of that school. The same applies to the DD-214, it is the definitive
document of a veteran's record. So much so, that Kerry's failure to
release it raises eyebrows on its own.

Then let your eyebrows down. He did release it, before the 2004
election.

No sir. He has not. He's released all sorts of notes, reports and such
but not the DD-214. He did release a letter dated during the Carter
administration that describes the condition of his discharge.

Then what are these? I ask because they appear to have his name on them,
they appear to have DD-214 in the lower left corner, and they appear to
have "Copy official record" stamped on them. You're saying these aren't
the DD-214?

http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/JOHN_KERRY_DD214_PG1_jpg.jpg
http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/JOHN_KERRY_DD214_PG2_jpg.jpg

Unless, of course, you're wrong and you've been drinking purple Kool-Aid.
http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/rbr/kool_aid.jpg

Robert Chung said:

Quoted message said:

A veteran, with a brother, father, and uncle who've all served, but who
does not consider myself as coming from a military family. A patriotic
family, yes. A family that recognizes it's responsibility to give
back, to serve, to earn it's perks of citizenship, but not a military
family.

I recognize my responsibility to give back.

http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/rbr/kool_aid.jpg

Robert Chung said:

RonSonic said:

On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 20:02:18 -0700, "Robert Chung" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

RonSonic wrote:

> About the DD-214, if you claim as a major job qualification that you
> graduated from Harvard, I want to see a transcript or at very least
> the diploma. Not one semester's report card or a letter from a
> teacher. Let's see THE document that defines your status as a student
> of that school. The same applies to the DD-214, it is the definitive
> document of a veteran's record. So much so, that Kerry's failure to
> release it raises eyebrows on its own.

Then let your eyebrows down. He did release it, before the 2004
election.

No sir. He has not. He's released all sorts of notes, reports and such
but not the DD-214. He did release a letter dated during the Carter
administration that describes the condition of his discharge.

Then what are these? I ask because they appear to have his name on them,
they appear to have DD-214 in the lower left corner, and they appear to
have "Copy official record" stamped on them. You're saying these aren't
the DD-214?

http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/JOHN_KERRY_DD214_PG1_jpg.jpg
http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/JOHN_KERRY_DD214_PG2_jpg.jpg

Now, just one more piece of paper - you've got him leaving the reserve and going
to active duty - we've got him leaving active duty and going reserve - just two
more years to go, there's going to be one more that shows him leaving the
reserves.

At least that's what it looks like from here.

Very interesting that you found them in this particular context, a site that
notes a citation on page two for a medal that simply has never existed:
http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/jodhn.htm

Quoted message said:

Unless, of course, you're wrong and you've been drinking purple Kool-Aid.
http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/rbr/kool_aid.jpg

Hmmm, I can be wrong.

Ron

RonSonic said:

Hmmm, I can be wrong.

Yeah, I noticed.

In article <[email hidden]>,

RonSonic said:

Robert Chung said:

RonSonic said:

On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 20:02:18 -0700, "Robert Chung" <[email hidden]>
wrote:

> RonSonic wrote:
>
>> About the DD-214, if you claim as a major job qualification that you
>> graduated from Harvard, I want to see a transcript or at very least
>> the diploma. Not one semester's report card or a letter from a
>> teacher. Let's see THE document that defines your status as a student
>> of that school. The same applies to the DD-214, it is the definitive
>> document of a veteran's record. So much so, that Kerry's failure to
>> release it raises eyebrows on its own.
>
> Then let your eyebrows down. He did release it, before the 2004
> election.

No sir. He has not. He's released all sorts of notes, reports and such
but not the DD-214. He did release a letter dated during the Carter
administration that describes the condition of his discharge.

Then what are these? I ask because they appear to have his name on them,
they appear to have DD-214 in the lower left corner, and they appear to
have "Copy official record" stamped on them. You're saying these aren't
the DD-214?

http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/JOHN_KERRY_DD214_PG1_jpg.jpg
http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/JOHN_KERRY_DD214_PG2_jpg.jpg

Now, just one more piece of paper - you've got him leaving the reserve and going
to active duty - we've got him leaving active duty and going reserve - just two
more years to go, there's going to be one more that shows him leaving the
reserves.

At least that's what it looks like from here.

DD-214, REFRAD, released from active duty. Reserve is not
active duty, hence a DD-214 is not generated for the end
of reserve status. The second DD-214 functions to document
the end of reserve duty.

--
Michael Press

Quoted message said:

... or the nutbar stuff about
the WTC being blown up from inside (which I think is
even too crazy for Lafferty).

Unfortunately this does not exactly seem to
be nutbar stuff.

This guy is a Mormon and physics professor
at BYU for 21 years until he was recently put
on leave for publishing this paper:

http://tinyurl.com/e6u6f

"We start with the fact that large quantities
of molten metal were observed in basement areas
under rubble piles of all three buildings: the Twin
Towers and WTC7."

SLAVE of THE STATE said:

Robert Chung said:

I recognize my responsibility to give back.

http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/rbr/kool_aid.jpg

Pretty useful, huh?

Bill C said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Robert Chung said:

http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/temp/11sep06.png

Graphs like that give aid and comfort to the enemy.

--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

And stories like this!

http://tinyurl.com/kwsov

Obviously the REPORT is incorrect, and they really didn't do their
homework, and if there might possibly be some truth to it then
obviously some clerks at DOD were mistaken in what they were supposed
to report and the General was misinformed by his staff.
Those clerks will be severely disciplined.
Reasonable people know that the only thing that likely would be true
is the last sentence.
Bill C

See, we DID learn something from Vietnam. Unlike back in the
Westmoreland era, we're now lying in order to minimize the number dead.
That's the type of positive progress you liberals will never recognize!

Ron Ruff said:

There are a lot of things to criticize concerning the US invasion and
occupation of Iraq, but the *coalition* death toll isn't one of them.
In real wars (like WW2) over 60,000,000 were killed... a little over
half of them civilians.

This raises an interesting point. "Coalition" deaths are frequently
reported. Civilian deaths in Iraq are occasionally estimated and
reported and always disputed when they are. I've never heard the number
of non-military "personal security experts" killed.

Bottom line is that I don't think anyone has any reasonable idea of how
many have died in this war. Anyone with a count either has an agenda or
is accused of having one by others with an agenda.

Still, I'm sure it doesn't compare to WWII. The population of the
entire country of Iraq is only 26,000,000. So we could wipe them all out
and it'd still be small potatoes. Right?

In article <[email hidden]>,

RonSonic said:

On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 17:22:01 -0700, Howard Kveck <[email hidden]>
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I realize that McCain's father and grandfather were admirals but I wonder
how much influence that would have had over Gore's deployment.

It was huge. McCain did not have much of a reputation prior to his capture,
well he had a lot of reputation that was mostly all bad. The Vietnamese tried
very hard to use him as a wedge and the brass were greatly relieved that he
didn't let it happen. They realized how narrowly they had dodged a tremendous
PR disaster and also how John McCain had been put in an incredibly difficult
situation, worse even than the other POWs. It was clear that anyone else's
son would be subject to the same or worse and very unlikely to handle it as
well. So there was a general prohibition on sending anyone prominent anywhere
they might possibly be captured.

That does seem fairly reasonable, Ron. But it does seem to me that the fact that
Gore did actually end up in Vietnam for any length of time (and, again, he did go
down to the recruitment center and enlist) does say something.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

To me, any service that was actually in Vietnam was certainly more dangerous
than Bush's stateside tour, even had he truly finished it. And the evidence
does sure seem to indicate that he didn't do what he was expected to.

There seem to be plenty of clay feet to go around and a few clear heroes. The
only credible claims I've seen that Bush was not active in his ANG duty all
came after his plane was being removed from service and he was redundant or would
require retraining and reassignment.

He was in F-102s, and, as far as I know, they were still in service when he
transferred himself to Louisiana. But no one at the base in Louisiana had any
recollection of him doing anything once he got there. Well, except for turning up at
the bars and parties they went to...

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

In article <[email hidden]>,

Bill C said:

Howard Kveck said:

I think the definition of "chicken hawk" has evolved a bit, John. A
person who supports a war and sending others to fight it while being
unwilling to go him or her own self is mostly accurate. But what really
nails it is having all that going on while thinking that makes one
courageous. In other words, puffing your chest out and calling the
people who aren't in favor of the war "weak" or "cowards" but not
putting your own neck on the line. There's at least one person who fits
that bill in here: Steve Taylor.

Quoted message said:

Hey Howard
Lot's of them in the military too. Known as REMFS, Garret Troopers,
HEEEroos, etc...
The AF had a good size scandalabout it's officers in Italy flying over
into the Balkan area on a transport, not getting anywhere near combat,
then going home and giving themselves medals. Seems a lot of that is
still going on now too.
They've also watered down the qualifications for a lot of the awards
so it's easy to hand them out now.
More BS on that here along with another stellar performance from our
SecDef:
http://www.intel-dump.com/posts/1113580478.shtml

Lot's of Gung-Ho MFers sitting behind desks surrounded by massive
firepower or hundreds or even thousands of miles from combat. I can't
find the story right now, but the [censored] who trotted into one of the
smaller outposts on a visit and had the troops called out to stand in
ranks for an inspection was typical. They got hit with a couple of
mortar rounds while standing in parade formation at an installation
that was regularly under fire.

I hope that clown is gone from the service. That's a disgrace, no two ways about
it.

Anyway, I agree that the people you're describing do fit the bill as chicken
hawk. But I tend to think they aren't as bad as (for example) some guy with a blog
who is completely gung-ho for the war but is just writing about it on a blog
somewhere. Examples:

___________________

By the time I encountered Cory Bray, a towering senior from the University of
Pennsylvania's Wharton School of Business, the beer was flowing freely. "The people
opposed to the war aren't putting their asses on the line," Bray boomed from beside
the bar. Then why isn't he putting his ass on the line? "I'm not putting my ass on
the line because I had the opportunity to go to the number-one business school in
the country," he declared, his voice rising in defensive anger, "and I wasn't going
to pass that up."

And besides, being a College Republican is so much more fun than
counterinsurgency warfare. Bray recounted the pride he and his buddies had felt
walking through the center of campus last fall waving a giant American flag, wearing
cowboy boots and hats with the letters B-U-S-H painted on their bare chests. "We're
the big guys," he said. "We're the ones who stand up for what we believe in. The
College Democrats just sit around talking about how much they hate Bush. We actually
do [censored]."
___________________

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050711/blumenthal

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Robert Chung said:

Quoted message said:

A veteran, with a brother, father, and uncle who've all served, but who
does not consider myself as coming from a military family. A patriotic
family, yes. A family that recognizes it's responsibility to give
back, to serve, to earn it's perks of citizenship, but not a military
family.

I recognize my responsibility to give back. I just had other priorities
than military service.

What, are you the senator's son?

RonSonic said:

The only credible claims I've seen that Bush was not active in
his ANG duty all came after his plane was being removed from service
and he was redundant or would require retraining and reassignment.

http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/rbr/kool_aid.jpg

The F-102 was still in TANG service when he stopped flying.

Quoted message said:

Robert Chung said:

Quoted message said:

A veteran, with a brother, father, and uncle who've all served, but
who does not consider myself as coming from a military family. A
patriotic family, yes. A family that recognizes it's responsibility
to give back, to serve, to earn it's perks of citizenship, but not a
military family.

I recognize my responsibility to give back. I just had other priorities
than military service.

What, are you the senator's son?

Not exactly. http://tinyurl.com/llh75

Howard Kveck said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Bill C said:

Howard Kveck wrote:

I hope that clown is gone from the service. That's a disgrace, no two ways about
it.

Anyway, I agree that the people you're describing do fit the bill as chicken
hawk. But I tend to think they aren't as bad as (for example) some guy with a blog
who is completely gung-ho for the war but is just writing about it on a blog
somewhere. Examples:

___________________

By the time I encountered Cory Bray, a towering senior from the University of
Pennsylvania's Wharton School of Business, the beer was flowing freely. "The people
opposed to the war aren't putting their asses on the line," Bray boomed from beside
the bar. Then why isn't he putting his ass on the line? "I'm not putting my ass on
the line because I had the opportunity to go to the number-one business school in
the country," he declared, his voice rising in defensive anger, "and I wasn't going
to pass that up."

And besides, being a College Republican is so much more fun than
counterinsurgency warfare. Bray recounted the pride he and his buddies had felt
walking through the center of campus last fall waving a giant American flag, wearing
cowboy boots and hats with the letters B-U-S-H painted on their bare chests. "We're
the big guys," he said. "We're the ones who stand up for what we believe in. The
College Democrats just sit around talking about how much they hate Bush. We actually
do [censored]."
___________________

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050711/blumenthal

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

I agree, that jack-off is even worse. "I'm too good to go, so you go
do the dirty work while I collect the rewards and cheer you on."
I have plenty of respect for people who oppose the mess who won't go,
but when a limpdick like that stands there spouting off, but won't step
up it's sickening.
Bill C