11 Sept

I was there, I used to work across the highway from the Pentagon. From
my hgh-rise office, I saw the jet flying at, and crashing into the
Pentagon. It was silver with red and white stripe down the fuselage,
like AA. I was also interviewed on NBC shortly afterwords.

That French author tried to speak to me about it but I told her where
to go. Conspiracy buffs will always try to link little bits of
misinformation to spin there own theory. Hmm, jets caught on video
tape crashing into the towers. Gotta blame it on something else...

Steve

Robert Chung said:

http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/temp/11sep06.png

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

RonSonic said:

Quoted message said:

http://tinyurl.com/2y5pj

Cheney on the other hand, he just had more important things to do, so
that's ok.

So did Bill Clinton and gee, didn't Al Gore leave early to go drop out of
divinity school and John Kerry found himself a whole new career and a whole new
side of the war to represent after a four month ticket punch. I don't think the
sanctimonious thing works.

Here's the thing. Even if there was some equivalence between, say
John Kerry and George Bush on military service (which there isn't --
Kerry was under fire in Vietnam which is a very serious thing -- but
just for the sake or argument let's pretend there is) -- we could say
that Kerry is a chicken whereas Bush and Rumfeld are chicken *hawks*
who are far to willing to throw away other people's live and other
parents lives.

I'm a chicken myself -- I would try very hard to not get drafted if it
had come to that when I was younger. And that's far more honest than
doing so while beating the drum for other people to fight.

I volunteered and was lucky enough to have served during a time when there was
not a shooting war. FDR never served either, I don't fault him for sending
soldiers out to fight.

Ron

RonSonic said:

So if he did something dumbass in 1971 he is required to continue to be a
dumbass? But it isn't the seventies anymore and he doesn't have a job title that
permits being anymore of a dumbass than he inevitably will be, so it doesn't
much matter what he did then.

People who acted in ethically compromised ways at one time
and later achieve moral clarity to define the world in black and
white bug me. That is all. It's not just the actions but the
characterization of people who disagree with the actions
as weak, appeasers, aid and comfort to the enemy, etc etc.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That said, though John Kerry can come off as really annoying,
comparing his service to GWB's or describing his tour as a
four month ticket punch is a major rewrite of history.

It was a ticket punch. If he wants to prove otherwise he can produce a DD-214.
It's real easy, just write to St Louis and they'll send him a copy. Every
veteran has one.

I am not competent to judge the authenticity of language
on a DD-214, but I think conspiracy theories about Kerry's
service and his decorations are about as believable
as the conspiracy theories Lafferty liked about a faked
plane hitting the Pentagon, or the nutbar stuff about
the WTC being blown up from inside (which I think is
even too crazy for Lafferty). Hell, the Nixon people
hated Kerry for being a grandstander who disagreed
with them, but they didn't call him a ticket-puncher.

Unless of course the whole Vietnam War was faked
on a back lot in Houston. Bill Asher will now give
three reasons why that could be - probably something
to do with time-traveling space aliens.

Ben

Kurgan Gringioni said:

William Asher said:

Robert Chung said:

http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/temp/11sep06.png

That plot demonstrates how America-haters like you distort reality to
fit your euro-trash fantasies. Sure, the overall trend is steadily
increasing, but you don't even mention that for most of the time, all
of the time really, coalition deaths do not increase. If you plot
only the times when there are no deaths on your graph, which is
really all of the time, the situation looks much better in terms of
coalition fatalities. So it's just like I hear on right-wing public
radio, the good news isn't being reported and everyone who hates
freedom and liberty, including you, focuses on the negative.

Dumbass -

Do you really believe that the situation there is positive, that our
involvement in Iraq will turn out well?

just wondering,

K. Gringioni.

Charlie Foxtrot
harlie Foxtrot C
arlie Foxtrot Ch
rlie Foxtrot Cha
lie Foxtrot Char
ie Foxtrot Charl
e Foxtrot Charli
Foxtrot Charlie
Foxtrot Charlie
oxtrot Charlie F
xtrot Charlie Fo
trot Charlie Fox
rot Charlie Foxt
ot Charlie Foxtr
t Charlie Foxtro
Charlie Foxtrot

But all's well that ends in oil wells.

--
Bill Asher

Quoted message said:

Unless of course the whole Vietnam War was faked
on a back lot in Houston. Bill Asher will now give
three reasons why that could be - probably something
to do with time-traveling space aliens.

If I were you I would shut up about the Vietnam War being faked. Not that
I know anything in particular, I'm just suggesting.

--
Bill Asher

Donald Munro wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

But I am a little worried about the end-of-the-world status. Hopefully
he is a Kazakh agent posing as an Iranian double agent and not really
an American.

That is precisely what they want you to think.

--
Bill Asher

Jay S. Hill said:

I come from a military family, and the idea of him throwing away the
lives of good people so he can strut around in a flight suite infuriates
me.

What exactly is a "military family"? Are you saying that many of your
relatives have served or are serving? How recently? As you say you're
from a military family, but don't say that YOU are "military", are we
to assume that YOU haven't served?

If you've got brothers, cousins, uncles, etc... who've all served
recently and your family's identity is somewhat built around the notion
of service, that's great and I applaud them.

If, however, you're claiming to come from a "military family" because
your grandfather fought in WWII, well... then you're being disinguous
with your claims. Are you trying to add credence to your claims of
disgust w/ Bush?

While we're on the subject, if you're male, over 18, and not a mental
or physical gimp, and you haven't yet, why haven't you served?

Fred

A veteran, with a brother, father, and uncle who've all served, but who
does not consider myself as coming from a military family. A patriotic
family, yes. A family that recognizes it's responsibility to give
back, to serve, to earn it's perks of citizenship, but not a military
family.

RonSonic said:

On 11 Sep 2006 20:10:13 -0700, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

RonSonic said:

So did Bill Clinton and gee, didn't Al Gore leave early to go drop out of
divinity school and John Kerry found himself a whole new career and a whole new
side of the war to represent after a four month ticket punch. I don't think the
sanctimonious thing works.

Dude,

None of the other guys ever, for example, described themselves
as a "war president."

None of those other guys are or were.

Does this count?

http://www.historyguy.com/balkan_war_third.htm

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That and everything that goes along with
it is why people keep bringing it up. If GWB or Cheney had gone
on to be oil or baseball executives who never ran for elective
office and never did a photo-op in a flight suit, nobody would give
a [censored] about what they did from 1968-1973 or thereabouts.
Lots of people made ethically questionable or simply
not-brave decisions back then. It's only the ones that seem
to take a contradictory position later that get the treatment.

So if he did something dumbass in 1971 he is required to continue to be a
dumbass? But it isn't the seventies anymore and he doesn't have a job title that
permits being anymore of a dumbass than he inevitably will be, so it doesn't
much matter what he did then.

Quoted message said:

That said, though John Kerry can come off as really annoying,
comparing his service to GWB's or describing his tour as a
four month ticket punch is a major rewrite of history.

It was a ticket punch. If he wants to prove otherwise he can produce a DD-214.
It's real easy, just write to St Louis and they'll send him a copy. Every
veteran has one.

Ron

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

William Asher said:

But all's well that ends in oil wells.

Must be a quote from Portrait of Shakespeare as neo-con.

Donald Munro said:

Quoted message said:

But I am a little worried about the end-of-the-world status. Hopefully
he is a Kazakh agent posing as an Iranian double agent and not really
an American.

William Asher said:

That is precisely what they want you to think.

That's all right then. Aliens grokking irony isn't a problem; there may
even be a planet called Irony somewhere in the galaxy.

Quoted message said:

but I think conspiracy theories about Kerry's
service and his decorations are about as believable
as the conspiracy theories Lafferty liked about a faked
plane hitting the Pentagon, or the nutbar stuff about
the WTC being blown up from inside (which I think is
even too crazy for Lafferty).

There is plenty of evidence to completely support the claim that Kerry's
medals were of a dubious, though within the law God Forbid, nature. Not
to mention that he apparently couldn't find Cambodia on a map if he
tried. I suspect that he couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat.

The Libs need to find a better candidate ..... Gore and Kerry are bufoons.

Bill

--

William R. Mattil : http://www.celestial-images.com

Ryan Cousineau said:

Number of people killed by the 9/11 terrorist attack: 2973
Coalition forces killed in Iraq since March 20, 2003: 2800 (or whatever
number it is).

Just to put it into perspective, about 40,000 people are killed every
year in the US from auto accidents... violent, sudden deaths. So... on
a national scale the number of people who died in 9/11, or the number
of coalition deaths (so far) in Iraq, are equivalent to about 1 month
of driving in the US.

There are a lot of things to criticize concerning the US invasion and
occupation of Iraq, but the *coalition* death toll isn't one of them.
In real wars (like WW2) over 60,000,000 were killed... a little over
half of them civilians.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Jeff Jones said:

William Asher said:

Robert Chung said:

http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/temp/11sep06.png

That plot demonstrates how America-haters like you distort reality to fit
your euro-trash fantasies. Sure, the overall trend is steadily increasing,
but you don't even mention that for most of the time, all of the time
really, coalition deaths do not increase. If you plot only the times when
there are no deaths on your graph, which is really all of the time, the
situation looks much better in terms of coalition fatalities. So it's just
like I hear on right-wing public radio, the good news isn't being reported
and everyone who hates freedom and liberty, including you, focuses on the
negative.

Nice one Bill. Your talents are wasted on RBR :-)

It's true. I could have sworn I was reading Bill Kristol or one of his Weekly
Standard cohorts for a bit.

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

In article <[email hidden]>,

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

RonSonic said:

Quoted message said:

http://tinyurl.com/2y5pj

Cheney on the other hand, he just had more important things to do, so
that's ok.

So did Bill Clinton and gee, didn't Al Gore leave early to go drop out of
divinity school and John Kerry found himself a whole new career and a whole
new
side of the war to represent after a four month ticket punch. I don't think
the
sanctimonious thing works.

Here's the thing. Even if there was some equivalence between, say
John Kerry and George Bush on military service (which there isn't --
Kerry was under fire in Vietnam which is a very serious thing -- but
just for the sake or argument let's pretend there is) -- we could say
that Kerry is a chicken whereas Bush and Rumfeld are chicken *hawks*
who are far to willing to throw away other people's live and other
parents lives.

I'm a chicken myself -- I would try very hard to not get drafted if it
had come to that when I was younger. And that's far more honest than
doing so while beating the drum for other people to fight.

I think the definition of "chicken hawk" has evolved a bit, John. A person who
supports a war and sending others to fight it while being unwilling to go him or her
own self is mostly accurate. But what really nails it is having all that going on
while thinking that makes one courageous. In other words, puffing your chest out and
calling the people who aren't in favor of the war "weak" or "cowards" but not
putting your own neck on the line. There's at least one person who fits that bill in
here: Steve Taylor.

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

In article <[email hidden]>,

RonSonic said:

He didn't dodge a damn thing. His father was a congressman and after John
McCain got captured nobody who was the son of anybody was ever going to be sent
to Vietnam. Al Gore and his dad pulled every string they had to get him assigned
as a correspondent and then only with full time guards and only for a couple of
months.

I realize that McCain's father and grandfather were admirals but I wonder how
much influence that would have had over Gore's deployment. And I haven't ever seen
any credible evidence that Gore had bodyguards while he was there. Anyway, he *did*
enlist on his own - that ought to be worth something, no? To me, any service that
was actually in Vietnam was certainly more dangerous than Bush's stateside tour,
even had he truly finished it. And the evidence does sure seem to indicate that he
didn't do what he was expected to.

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

In article <[email hidden]>,

Donald Munro said:

William Asher said:

But all's well that ends in oil wells.

Must be a quote from Portrait of Shakespeare as neo-con.

That was Ben Franklin, damnit!

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

On 12 Sep 2006 07:57:48 -0700, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

RonSonic said:

So if he did something dumbass in 1971 he is required to continue to be a
dumbass? But it isn't the seventies anymore and he doesn't have a job title that
permits being anymore of a dumbass than he inevitably will be, so it doesn't
much matter what he did then.

People who acted in ethically compromised ways at one time
and later achieve moral clarity to define the world in black and
white bug me. That is all. It's not just the actions but the
characterization of people who disagree with the actions
as weak, appeasers, aid and comfort to the enemy, etc etc.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That said, though John Kerry can come off as really annoying,
comparing his service to GWB's or describing his tour as a
four month ticket punch is a major rewrite of history.

It was a ticket punch. If he wants to prove otherwise he can produce a DD-214.
It's real easy, just write to St Louis and they'll send him a copy. Every
veteran has one.

I am not competent to judge the authenticity of language
on a DD-214, but I think conspiracy theories about Kerry's
service and his decorations are about as believable
as the conspiracy theories Lafferty liked about a faked
plane hitting the Pentagon, or the nutbar stuff about
the WTC being blown up from inside (which I think is
even too crazy for Lafferty). Hell, the Nixon people
hated Kerry for being a grandstander who disagreed
with them, but they didn't call him a ticket-puncher.

Unless of course the whole Vietnam War was faked
on a back lot in Houston. Bill Asher will now give
three reasons why that could be - probably something
to do with time-traveling space aliens.

I wasn't there and I really should not be too damn critical about how eager he
was to get out of that place. At the same time a lot of guys got hurt a lot
worse and went back.

About the DD-214, if you claim as a major job qualification that you graduated
from Harvard, I want to see a transcript or at very least the diploma. Not one
semester's report card or a letter from a teacher. Let's see THE document that
defines your status as a student of that school. The same applies to the DD-214,
it is the definitive document of a veteran's record. So much so, that Kerry's
failure to release it raises eyebrows on its own.

Ron

RonSonic said:

About the DD-214, if you claim as a major job qualification that you
graduated from Harvard, I want to see a transcript or at very least the
diploma. Not one semester's report card or a letter from a teacher.
Let's see THE document that defines your status as a student of that
school. The same applies to the DD-214, it is the definitive document
of a veteran's record. So much so, that Kerry's failure to release it
raises eyebrows on its own.

Then let your eyebrows down. He did release it, before the 2004 election.

Quoted message said:

A veteran, with a brother, father, and uncle who've all served, but who
does not consider myself as coming from a military family. A patriotic
family, yes. A family that recognizes it's responsibility to give
back, to serve, to earn it's perks of citizenship, but not a military
family.

I recognize my responsibility to give back. I just had other priorities
than military service.

William Asher said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But all's well that ends in oil wells.

Donald Munro said:

Quoted message said:

Must be a quote from Portrait of Shakespeare as neo-con.

Howard Kveck said:

That was Ben Franklin, damnit!

Ben Franklin was a neo-con ?