10 speed chains and power*locks*

Mark Thompson wrote on 20/05/2007 20:28 +0100:

Quoted message said:

SRAM powerlinks are fantastically reusable things. Are the powerlocks that
come with their ten speed chains resuable?

Up to a point as the pins wear on the powerlink as well as on the chain.
I generally find a powerlink will last for two chains before I feel it
has gone too far. The advantage is you can actually take it out and
inspect the wear on the pin which you can't do on the rest of the chain
(well not non-destructively anyway)

--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell

Tony Raven wrote on 20/05/2007 20:38 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Mark Thompson wrote on 20/05/2007 20:28 +0100:

Quoted message said:

SRAM powerlinks are fantastically reusable things. Are the powerlocks
that come with their ten speed chains resuable?

Up to a point as the pins wear on the powerlink as well as on the chain.
I generally find a powerlink will last for two chains before I feel it
has gone too far. The advantage is you can actually take it out and
inspect the wear on the pin which you can't do on the rest of the chain
(well not non-destructively anyway)

Whoops sorry, the Powerlocks are not reusable and SRAM actually
recommend you should break the chain at a different place than the
Powerlock although you can use another Powerlock to rejoin it
--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell

Mark Thompson said:

SRAM powerlinks are fantastically reusable things. Are the powerlocks that
come with their ten speed chains resuable?

I don't think they are meant to be.

--
Mike
Van Tuyl titanium Dura Ace 10
Fausto Coppi aluminium Ultegra 10
Raleigh Record Sprint mongrel

mb wrote on 20/05/2007 21:03 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Mark Thompson said:

SRAM powerlinks are fantastically reusable things. Are the powerlocks that
come with their ten speed chains resuable?

I don't think they are meant to be.

KMC do a ten speed reusuable link though. At £2.99 for two they are a
lot cheaper than the non-reusable £9.99 for four of the Powerlink.
http://preview.tinyurl.com/3a7kpr

--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell

Tony Raven said:

mb wrote on 20/05/2007 21:03 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Mark Thompson said:

SRAM powerlinks are fantastically reusable things. Are the
powerlocks that come with their ten speed chains resuable?

I don't think they are meant to be.

KMC do a ten speed reusuable link though. At £2.99 for two they are a
lot cheaper than the non-reusable £9.99 for four of the Powerlink.
http://preview.tinyurl.com/3a7kpr

Ah, SWK. Maybe you can answer my question too, which is "are 10 speed
chains all pretty much compatible, or is running 10 speed shimano HG
chain on campag mech/sprockets a dumb idea?" Paying over £20 for a
chain seems like, I dunno, lots of money. But trashing the mech or
sprockets is probably even more expensive ...

-dan

Daniel Barlow wrote on 20/05/2007 22:00 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Ah, SWK. Maybe you can answer my question too, which is "are 10 speed
chains all pretty much compatible, or is running 10 speed shimano HG
chain on campag mech/sprockets a dumb idea?" Paying over £20 for a
chain seems like, I dunno, lots of money. But trashing the mech or
sprockets is probably even more expensive ...

They are all interchangeable within one speed. I would get the cheapest
Shimano or KMC and a couple of the KMC joining links. The joining pin
is usually the weakest point on the chain unless done properly and the
link removes that problem.

--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell

Tony Raven said:

They are all interchangeable within one speed. I would get the cheapest
Shimano or KMC and a couple of the KMC joining links. The joining pin
is usually the weakest point on the chain unless done properly and the
link removes that problem.

Ah, thank you. And thank you also to Pete Biggs for his comment (some
years ago, found with Google Groups) that "Buying Campag from Wiggle is
the same as shoving fivers down the drain" and pointer to Parker.
Suddenly 10 speed looks a lot more affordable :-)

-dan

Daniel Barlow said:

Tony Raven said:

They are all interchangeable within one speed. I would get the
cheapest Shimano or KMC and a couple of the KMC joining links. The
joining pin is usually the weakest point on the chain unless done
properly and the link removes that problem.

Ah, thank you. And thank you also to Pete Biggs for his comment (some
years ago, found with Google Groups) that "Buying Campag from Wiggle
is the same as shoving fivers down the drain" and pointer to Parker.
Suddenly 10 speed looks a lot more affordable :-)

And I'm still here these years later :-)

You're welcome Dan. http://www.dotbike.com/ProductsC18.aspx is a good
source as well now, especially if just ordering one item as they do "free
post".

For Campag 10-speed, I like the idea of sticking with chains as narrow as
the Campag Ultra Narrow to minimise noise. (That is what they were
invented for. The 5.9mm Ultra Narrow replaced the previous 6.1mm 10-speed
chain). This can be joined with a Wipperman Conex link ("Shimano" version).

I don't remember how wide KMC chains are. /Internal/ width of all 10-speed
chains will be very similar, so they'll all drive OK, but the wider the
chain is altogether, the more likely it is to rub against adjacent
sprockets. Shifters aren't perfectly precise; it helps to have some leeway.

~PB

KMC 10-speed chain is 6.2mm according to Dotbike.

~PB

In article <[email hidden]>, Tony Raven
[email hidden] says...
<snip>

Quoted message said:

I generally find a powerlink will last for two chains before I feel it
has gone too far. The advantage is you can actually take it out and
inspect the wear on the pin

You can also clean and lube it more thoroughly, so it should last a
little longer anyway.

Quoted message said:

KMC 10-speed chain is 6.2mm according to Dotbike.

I have a 9 speed kmc chain that is supposed to be strong and I have
not snapped it. Previously I snapped a nine speed twice and another
once, so i do not trust light, thin chains.

TerryJ

TerryJ said:

Quoted message said:

KMC 10-speed chain is 6.2mm according to Dotbike.

I have a 9 speed kmc chain that is supposed to be strong and I have
not snapped it. Previously I snapped a nine speed twice and another
once, so i do not trust light, thin chains.

Unless it's a really dodgy cheap and nasty brand, chain failure I reckon is
down to poor joining or some other abuse. If modern narrow chains are
strong enough for the world's most powerful road sprinters, they're strong
enough for you!

Campag have tested the strength of their 5.9mm chain and find it just as
strong as the previous 6.2mm version.

~PB

Pete Biggs wrote on 21/05/2007 14:46 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Unless it's a really dodgy cheap and nasty brand, chain failure I reckon is
down to poor joining or some other abuse. If modern narrow chains are
strong enough for the world's most powerful road sprinters, they're strong
enough for you!

Except they aren't:
http://www.velonews.com/tour2005/tech/articles/8534.0.html
(Article by Lennard Zinn on 10 speed chain breakages and how to minimise
them)

--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell

Tony Raven said:

Pete Biggs wrote on 21/05/2007 14:46 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Unless it's a really dodgy cheap and nasty brand, chain failure I
reckon is down to poor joining or some other abuse. If modern
narrow chains are strong enough for the world's most powerful road
sprinters, they're strong enough for you!

Except they aren't:
http://www.velonews.com/tour2005/tech/articles/8534.0.html
(Article by Lennard Zinn on 10 speed chain breakages and how to
minimise them)

Zinn says:
"While you rarely see a broken chain in the professional peloton, you
certainly do see it among everyday enthusiasts nowadays with 10-speed chains
far more frequently than you used to with 9-speed chains, and especially
more so than in the old days when riders used 5-, 6-, 7-, and 8-speed
chains. Back then breakage on a road bike was practically unheard of."

Not sure I believe that. I've heard of loads of breakages with old 5 to
8-speed chains and experienced trouble with them myself as well. The links
weren't so firmly rivetted as those of today's high-end 9 and 10-speed
chains, and the use of Powerlink type links was less common, so the chain
was more likely to be bodged.

"If the connector pin, which everyone would agree is the weakest point
in the chain, happens to be on the link that is simultaneously engaging two
cogs, you are asking for trouble if your connector pin was installed
improperly."

Well, people should install it properly then, or preferably use a special
connecting link instead.

~PB

in message <[email hidden]>, TerryJ

(') said:

Quoted message said:

KMC 10-speed chain is 6.2mm according to Dotbike.

I have a 9 speed kmc chain that is supposed to be strong and I have
not snapped it. Previously I snapped a nine speed twice and another
once, so i do not trust light, thin chains.

As Pete Biggs says, you need to look at how you join chains. But I think
you also need to look at your cadence - if you're breaking chains you're
almost certainly knackering your knees.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; making jokes about dyslexia isn't big, it isn't clever and
;; it isn't furry.

in message <[email hidden]>, Tony Raven

(') said:

Pete Biggs wrote on 21/05/2007 14:46 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Unless it's a really dodgy cheap and nasty brand, chain failure I reckon
is
down to poor joining or some other abuse. If modern narrow chains are
strong enough for the world's most powerful road sprinters, they're
strong enough for you!

Except they aren't:
http://www.velonews.com/tour2005/tech/articles/8534.0.html
(Article by Lennard Zinn on 10 speed chain breakages and how to minimise
them)

Brief summary: one pro rider broke one nine speed chain once, while an
amateur broke a number of ten speed chains. I'm not saying pro riders
never break ten speed chains - I saw Bettini break a chain in one of the
Belgian classics this year, and he's scarcely a heavy guy - but chain
breakage is still exceedingly rare in the pro peloton, and they're all on
ten speed these days. And they climb and sprint with more power than you
or I ever will.

You don't see big Magnus Backstedt (racing weight: 94Kg, almost 15 stone)
having problems with broken chains. He has reputedly broken a lot of
frames this year, but not chains. You don't see Tom Boonen (82Kg) or Thor
Hushovd (81Kg) having problems with broken chains, and they don't mess
about when it comes to sprinting.

Part of this, of course, is that professionals' bikes are very well
maintained by the best mechanics available, and I suspect they replace
chains much more frequently than you or I do. They certainly inspect and
clean chains much more frequently than some people do.

Big Magnus is riding a Campag Record 10 speed Ultra chain, just like mine.
If he can't break it, I don't expect to.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Human history becomes more and more a race between
;; education and catastrophe.
H.G. Wells, "The Outline of History"

'''A chain breaks when a link plate gets pried off of the end of a
chain rivet. On a road bike, this is most likely to happen when the
rider is shifting under load, particularly in the rear.'''

the chain that broke twice came with a brand new dahon jetstream xp
and was a fancy lightweight with little holes in it .It snapped
through mid shaft of the side plates, nowhere near the pins, when in a
lowish but not bottom gear , once when I arrived at the bottom of a
1in 8 and once as I set off enthusiastically at traffic lights.I weigh
95 kg..''

TerryJ

O

Quoted message said:

Part of this, of course, is that professionals' bikes are very well
maintained by the best mechanics available, and I suspect they replace
chains much more frequently than you or I do. They certainly inspect and
clean chains much more frequently than some people do.

If you have a chain that needs extremely careful fitting to avoid
failure, must be kept always clean and chucked after a thousand miles
then you are welcome to keep it.

As I have said I never had a chain snap before that I can recall.

TerryJ

H.G. Wells, "The Outline of History"

O

Quoted message said:

Part of this, of course, is that professionals' bikes are very well
maintained by the best mechanics available, and I suspect they replace
chains much more frequently than you or I do. They certainly inspect and
clean chains much more frequently than some people do.

If you have a chain that needs extremely careful fitting to avoid
failure, must be kept always clean and chucked after a thousand miles
then you are welcome to keep it.

As I have said I never had a chain snap before that I can recall.

TerryJ