1 hour of your time

elyob said:

I know the idea needs work. I'm sure I'll get shot down in flames.

Pat on the back. Great idea.
I see cars (vans, lorries) jumping red lights every day.

But excuses will be made. "Driver was 'only' one second after the red. Etc."
I was taught that the amber phase means get ready to stop, or stop.
Sadly seems to have disappeared from the driving syllabus.

elyob said:

I was cycling about today and came up with an idea. The idea is this ..
choose 5 different crossroads in your local area. Choose an hour we're all
willing to do (e.g. 1pm -2pm). I will then give a number between one and
five (making your choice random and thus choosing a random crossroad). Then
count the number of people that jump red lights on different transport.

It may give a reasonable impression of how bad the problem is up and down
the country.

I know the idea needs work. I'm sure I'll get shot down in flames.

Hehe. OK, hands up anyone who works in a transport or road safety
research environment, where you could publish this kind of thing
in the course of your work?

Could give an interesting profile of different areas ... city vs
suburban vs market town vs rural ... southeast england vs industrial
midlands/north vs slightly-less-horrendously-overpopulated,
box vs roundabout vs pelican, ...

Come to think of it, in a tourist region like here, I am
(subjectively) aware of huge *seasonal* differences, with a
lot more aggression in the holiday season. Could be another
influence.

--
not me guv

elyob said:

I was cycling about today and came up with an idea. The idea is this ..
choose 5 different crossroads in your local area. Choose an hour we're all
willing to do (e.g. 1pm -2pm). I will then give a number between one and
five (making your choice random and thus choosing a random crossroad). Then
count the number of people that jump red lights on different transport.

It may give a reasonable impression of how bad the problem is up and down
the country.

I know the idea needs work. I'm sure I'll get shot down in flames.

To find five sets of traffic lights here to choose from I'd have to
cover about 500 square miles :-(

--
Brian G

"John Hearns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

elyob said:

I know the idea needs work. I'm sure I'll get shot down in flames.

Pat on the back. Great idea.
I see cars (vans, lorries) jumping red lights every day.

But excuses will be made. "Driver was 'only' one second after the red.
Etc."
I was taught that the amber phase means get ready to stop, or stop.
Sadly seems to have disappeared from the driving syllabus.

I was taught (30 years ago) that amber means stop. I don't know what people
are being taught today but a quick look at the HC shows that it still means
stop:

"AMBER means 'Stop' at the stopline. You may go on only if the AMBER appears
after you have crossed the stop line or are so close to it that to pull up
might cause an accident"

John Wilton said:

I was taught (30 years ago) that amber means stop. I don't know what people
are being taught today but a quick look at the HC shows that it still means
stop:

"AMBER means 'Stop' at the stopline. You may go on only if the AMBER appears
after you have crossed the stop line or are so close to it that to pull up
might cause an accident"

In all the cycle-training teaching we include instruction that amber
means STOP and nothing else.
Red = Stop
Red and Amber = Stop
Green = Go if it is safe to do so
Amber = Stop

This is as shown in the HC for Young Road Users which backs up the full
HC. I often ask parents what amber means when they are present and they
*very* rarely get it correct.

Drivers should come on our courses ;-)

tt

Unfortunately, if you do this in London the most common ofenders would
be cyclists.

On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 08:16:42 +0000,

Nick Kew said:

elyob said:

I was cycling about today and came up with an idea. The idea is this ..
choose 5 different crossroads in your local area. Choose an hour we're all
willing to do (e.g. 1pm -2pm). I will then give a number between one and
five (making your choice random and thus choosing a random crossroad). Then
count the number of people that jump red lights on different transport.

It may give a reasonable impression of how bad the problem is up and down
the country.

I know the idea needs work. I'm sure I'll get shot down in flames.

Hehe. OK, hands up anyone who works in a transport or road safety
research environment, where you could publish this kind of thing
in the course of your work?

Unfortunately, in order for this to get published there will have to be
training for the observers so that they all count the same violations.
(e.g. how many seconds after the lights have gone red before it counts
as a car jumping a red light - IIRC last time this was done it was 3
seconds - and then monitoring to ensure that there is consistency in
estimating the 3 seconds etc, etc, etc.)

I think TRL did a survey like this in London at 5 junctions. IIRC 10% of
cars jumped red lights and 17% of cyclists although many cyclists waited
ahead of the stop line.

I cycle in London every day and it's not uncommon to have at least one
motorvehicle cross their lights _after_ my lights have gone to green at
all of the junctions I cross. When I go to get my lunch it's not very
unusual to see motorvehicles driving across the pedestrian crossing for
the entire green man phase.

I would say it's more likely that the first motorvehicle to arrive at
the red light will go through it than the first cyclist. Indeed maybe
once per month I'm overtaken when I'm stopping at a red light and maybe
once per week I don't stop because I can tell that the car behind me
isn't going to stop (and I'm always right). Also about once per week I
see 3 or 4 cars in one go blatently drive through the lights by Kings
Cross on the westbound side of the Euston road (at any point in the red
phase). I can only assume that they are completely inobservent and think
that I've stopped because I'm tired or something. (This bit of road has
just had the roadworks reconfigured so this might change now)

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/

John Hearns said:

elyob said:

I know the idea needs work. I'm sure I'll get shot down in flames.

Pat on the back. Great idea.

But one that will be instantly dismissed because a) it does not have a
rigourous methodology and b) the observers are clearly biased, all being
cyclists. I suspect it would get about as much respect as we would give
a speeding survey carried out by Safe Speed members.

--
Tony

"The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
right."
- Lord Hailsham

elyob said:

I was cycling about today and came up with an idea. The idea is this ..
choose 5 different crossroads in your local area. Choose an hour we're all
willing to do (e.g. 1pm -2pm). I will then give a number between one and
five (making your choice random and thus choosing a random crossroad). Then
count the number of people that jump red lights on different transport.

It's a nice idea, but would be meaningless without also counting the
total numbers of people driving each mode of transport, so that we could
show the proportions who jump red lights. Of course that would make
motorists look better than they really are, because they have fewer
opportunities to jump the lights (once the third car has gone through on
red, the fourth will usually stop, preventing any more from going through).

I guess the fairest thing would be to count, for different modes of
transport, those who have the opportunity to go through on red and those
who actually do it. I wouldn't expect a great deal of difference to
emerge between different modes of transport, doing it that way.

--
Danny Colyer <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/danny/>
Subscribe to PlusNet <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/referral/>
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

Tim Woodall said:

On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 08:16:42 +0000,

Nick Kew said:

elyob said:

I was cycling about today and came up with an idea. The idea is this ..
choose 5 different crossroads in your local area. .... Then
count the number of people that jump red lights on different transport.

It may give a reasonable impression of how bad the problem is up and down
the country.

Unfortunately, in order for this to get published there will have to be
training for the observers so that they all count the same violations.
(e.g. how many seconds after the lights have gone red before it counts
as a car jumping a red light - IIRC last time this was done it was 3
seconds - and then monitoring to ensure that there is consistency in
estimating the 3 seconds etc, etc, etc.)

I wonder if red light cameras detect cyclists. If so the data might be
available already. Presumably more drivers break the law at junctions
without cameras than with - if they know the cameras are there - so
the results would be expected to favour drivers.

Colin McKenzie

elyob said:

I was cycling about today and came up with an idea. The idea is this ..
choose 5 different crossroads in your local area. Choose an hour we're all
willing to do (e.g. 1pm -2pm). I will then give a number between one and
five (making your choice random and thus choosing a random crossroad). Then
count the number of people that jump red lights on different transport.

It may give a reasonable impression of how bad the problem is up and down
the country.

I know the idea needs work. I'm sure I'll get shot down in flames.

How about zebra crossings. Yesterday we waited while 5 cars went through
on red.....

On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 13:53:13 +0000,

Colin McKenzie said:

Tim Woodall said:

On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 08:16:42 +0000,

Nick Kew said:

elyob wrote:
>I was cycling about today and came up with an idea. The idea is this ..
>choose 5 different crossroads in your local area. .... Then
>count the number of people that jump red lights on different transport.
>
>It may give a reasonable impression of how bad the problem is up and down
>the country.
>

Unfortunately, in order for this to get published there will have to be
training for the observers so that they all count the same violations.
(e.g. how many seconds after the lights have gone red before it counts
as a car jumping a red light - IIRC last time this was done it was 3
seconds - and then monitoring to ensure that there is consistency in
estimating the 3 seconds etc, etc, etc.)

I wonder if red light cameras detect cyclists. If so the data might be
available already. Presumably more drivers break the law at junctions
without cameras than with - if they know the cameras are there - so
the results would be expected to favour drivers.

Red lights don't detect cyclists[1]. What's the chance that red light
cameras will detect them?

Also, as there are only red light jumping cyclists, they will obviously
either be caught on the camera or won't trigger it.

[1] this is getting better. The lights outside my house now detect you
once you get to the line. Previously they would only detect you if you
approached them at 20+mph and only started braking once it required an
emergency stop - which rather scared any pedestrians who were crossing.
But the ones outside my house still won't detect you on approach, unlike
for cars, and so the lights will regularly change to red when you are
only 30 feet from the lights because a car is 100+ feet away and
approaching the lights from another direction. OTOH, some pedestrian
crossings will detect you if you stop at the line and assume that there
is a pedestrian still on the crossing so the crossing stays red for the
maximum length of time. I used to have one like this on my old commute -
I would have to stop about 5 feet back from the line. I didn't have to
stop often but about 50% of the time when I did a car would then
"overtake" into that 5 foot gap - at which point I would edge forward to
the line and make them wait the full 60s or whatever it was :-P (I don't
know why the crossing wouldn't detect the cars, maybe they're too hot,
or too big a heat source but I would have assumed that they would then
have masked me but I could definitely control how long the red phase was
by where I waited)

Tim.

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/

Broadly speaking, I think the idea is a good one, subject to the
modifications already stated.

It would be even better if we could get an unbiased body such as a
university department or the TRL to carry out such a study. I'm
convinced it would demonstrate that the overwhelming weight of offences
is carried out by motor vehicles (both expressed in absolute number,
proportion of that type of vehicle and certainly in terms of potential
danger to others of the offences).

It does seem ridiculous the anti-cyclist tirade about offences when
these are dwarfed by motoring offences. Having said that, I think that
our most effective tactic now is to acknowledge that red light jumping
is wrong and work towards reducing cycling offences. See
www.stopatred.org etc

PD

"triddletree" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

John Wilton said:

I was taught (30 years ago) that amber means stop. I don't know what
people are being taught today but a quick look at the HC shows that it
still means stop:

"AMBER means 'Stop' at the stopline. You may go on only if the AMBER
appears after you have crossed the stop line or are so close to it that
to pull up might cause an accident"

In all the cycle-training teaching we include instruction that amber means
STOP and nothing else.
Red = Stop
Red and Amber = Stop
Green = Go if it is safe to do so
Amber = Stop

The problem is, I have get to find any vehicle which is able to stop
instantaneously!

Often, those I drive need about 2 seconds at 40 mph to come to a standstill.

Alan

Quoted message said:

This is as shown in the HC for Young Road Users which backs up the full
HC. I often ask parents what amber means when they are present and they
*very* rarely get it correct.

Drivers should come on our courses ;-)

tt

"Danny Colyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

elyob wrote:

Quoted message said:

It's a nice idea, but would be meaningless without also counting the total
numbers of people driving each mode of transport, so that we could show
the proportions who jump red lights. Of course that would make motorists
look better than they really are, because they have fewer opportunities to
jump the lights (once the third car has gone through on red, the fourth
will usually stop, preventing any more from going through).

I guess the fairest thing would be to count, for different modes of
transport, those who have the opportunity to go through on red and those
who actually do it. I wouldn't expect a great deal of difference to
emerge between different modes of transport, doing it that way.

I'm kinda thinking that it may be a different angle.

If we try and judge our own misdemeanours, maybe we will have a voice.

From my own 15 mins .. we're not the worst jumpers.

Dan Gregory <[email hidden]> wrote:
| How about zebra crossings. Yesterday we waited while 5 cars went through
| on red.....

All the zerbra crossings I've ever seen were monochrome.
Where do you have red ones?

Geraint Jones said:

Dan Gregory <[email hidden]> wrote:
| How about zebra crossings. Yesterday we waited while 5 cars went through
| on red.....

All the zerbra crossings I've ever seen were monochrome.
Where do you have red ones?

Q: What's black and white but red all over..?
A: An embarassed Zebra.

...d

Alan Holmes said:

Quoted message said:

In all the cycle-training teaching we include instruction that amber means
STOP and nothing else.
Red = Stop
Red and Amber = Stop
Green = Go if it is safe to do so
Amber = Stop

The problem is, I have get to find any vehicle which is able to stop
instantaneously!

Often, those I drive need about 2 seconds at 40 mph to come to a standstill.

Why are you approaching traffic lights which have been green for some
time at 40 mph, instead of anticipating that they will be turning amber
and slowing appropriately?

R.

Richard said:

Alan Holmes said:

Quoted message said:

In all the cycle-training teaching we include instruction that amber means
STOP and nothing else.
Red = Stop
Red and Amber = Stop
Green = Go if it is safe to do so
Amber = Stop

The problem is, I have get to find any vehicle which is able to stop
instantaneously!

Often, those I drive need about 2 seconds at 40 mph to come to a standstill.

Why are you approaching traffic lights which have been green for some
time at 40 mph, instead of anticipating that they will be turning amber
and slowing appropriately?

Because it a 40mph zone. However, traffic lights in a 40mph zone are
phased appropriately, with an extended amber, to allow people who
are doing 40mph to stop in a safe and reasonable manner if they are
sufficiently far in front of the lights to do so. Any [censored] who uses the
"I can't stop instantaneously" argument is just that, a [censored]. They clearly
don't understand the implications of the HC's requirement to stop "if it
is safe to do so".

--
Nobby Anderson