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Exploding tires II

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Road Cycling
Published
24 August 2004
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30 August 2004
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Brian
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  1. Quoted message said:

    Carl Fogel writes:

    I've done that and all the temperature spots turned from silver to
    black, indicating that the strips don't go high enough and their
    sensitivity to crude.

    This was a red tape with silver spots calibrated in degrees. They
    turn black when their temperature is reached. I did this long ago and
    do not recall the name of the product or how high a temperature they
    could read, only that they did not go high enough. Not much was
    learned from this experiment.

    To avoid the crud, how about putting them inside the tire, under
    the rim strip. It's a pain, but might work better.

    Joe

  2. Frank Krygowski said:

    The car was parked in the sun (don't recall the outside temperature).
    When I finished work and drove to the friend's house, I pulled out a
    bike with a blown back tire. Obviously, that tire'd blown off the rim
    while the car was parked.

    Air pressure would have been between 100 psi and 105 psi that morning.
    Of course, I don't know the eventual air temperature inside the car. As
    a guess, I'd assume the rear tire was partly in the sun as it came
    through the rear window. I don't know if it was that part of the tire
    that slipped off the rim, though.

    What strikes me about this is: there was certainly a rise in
    temperature, but I'm sure the rim didn't get anywhere near the boiling
    point of water, let alone 500+ degrees.

    I left a candy thermometer in my car one sunny day. It reached just
    over 200 degrees F.

    I bought this thermometer at the grocery store. It wasn't expensive;
    anyone who wants to know the temperature in their car should be able
    to get one. They start at about $4.

    http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=candy%20thermometer&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&safe=off&sa=N&tab=wf

    or

    http://tinyurl.com/5fvmf

  3. Joe Riel said:
    Quoted message said:

    I've done that and all the temperature spots turned from silver to
    black, indicating that the strips don't go high enough and their
    sensitivity to crude.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    This was a red tape with silver spots calibrated in degrees. They
    turn black when their temperature is reached. I did this long ago and
    do not recall the name of the product or how high a temperature they
    could read, only that they did not go high enough. Not much was
    learned from this experiment.

    Quoted message said:

    To avoid the crud, how about putting them inside the tire, under the
    rim strip. It's a pain, but might work better.

    Huh? What problem does this solve? What crud are you talking about?
    And finally, "work better" than what?

    Jobst Brandt
    [email hidden]

  4. Quoted message said:
    Frank Krygowski said:

    One brand of these is Tempilabel, and at least some of them read up
    to 500 deg. F. That ought to cover things. See:

    http://www.tempil.com/pdf/Tempilabel.pdf

    Quoted message said:

    or see Omega's offerings at:

    http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=TL-10

    Quoted message said:

    As an alternative, an infrared thermometer could be used.

    http://www.omega.com/toc_asp/section.asp?book=temperature&section=j

    If you've got one, make some measurements,

    I've got access to one. What I lack is the mountain.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    These are non-contact, and might even be rigged to get readings
    while riding the bike. These things can measure up to the melting
    temperature of aluminum, which is probably enough range.

    How else do you measure infrared radiation it not optically.

    ??

    --
    --------------------+
    Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com,
    replace with cc.ysu dot edu]

  5. Frank Krygowski said:

    ...
    The car was parked in the sun (don't recall the outside temperature).
    When I finished work and drove to the friend's house, I pulled out a
    bike with a blown back tire. Obviously, that tire'd blown off the rim
    while the car was parked.

    Air pressure would have been between 100 psi and 105 psi that morning.
    Of course, I don't know the eventual air temperature inside the car. As
    a guess, I'd assume the rear tire was partly in the sun as it came
    through the rear window. I don't know if it was that part of the tire
    that slipped off the rim, though.

    What strikes me about this is: there was certainly a rise in
    temperature, but I'm sure the rim didn't get anywhere near the boiling
    point of water, let alone 500+ degrees. And there was no braking force
    which might tend to cause any further shifting, creeping, etc. of the
    tire on the rim. All that could have done it would be the (as we've
    seen) moderate rise in air pressure, and the possible effects of
    temperature on the rubber and other materials.

    Further memory on that event: I just remembered that the tire was
    ruined. As I recall, the bead wire was ripped away from the sidewall
    for a few inches of circumference.

    I know that typical blowoffs don't rip the tire this way. Still, I
    wonder if this gives further evidence that the problem is related to the
    effect of temperature on the materials. I think most of us agree it's
    not simply high pressure doing the damage.

    --
    --------------------+
    Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com,
    replace with cc.ysu dot edu]

  6. Frank Krygowski said:
    Quoted message said:
    Frank Krygowski said:

    One brand of these is Tempilabel, and at least some of them read up
    to 500 deg. F. That ought to cover things. See:


    http://www.tempil.com/pdf/Tempilabel.pdf

    Quoted message said:

    or see Omega's offerings at:


    http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=TL-10

    Quoted message said:

    As an alternative, an infrared thermometer could be used.


    http://www.omega.com/toc_asp/section.asp?book=temperature&section=j
    If you've got one, make some measurements,

    I've got access to one. What I lack is the mountain.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    These are non-contact, and might even be rigged to get readings
    while riding the bike. These things can measure up to the melting
    temperature of aluminum, which is probably enough range.


    How else do you measure infrared radiation it not optically.


    I just ran accross this:

    http://www.bicyclesource.com/bike/choosing/brakes-paper.shtml

    The page mentions that "oven tests" for rim brakes were being proposed
    by the CPSC in the 70s. Anyone know anything about this?

  7. Quoted message said:
    Joe Riel said:
    Quoted message said:

    I've done that and all the temperature spots turned from silver to
    black, indicating that the strips don't go high enough and their
    sensitivity to crude.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    This was a red tape with silver spots calibrated in degrees. They
    turn black when their temperature is reached. I did this long ago and
    do not recall the name of the product or how high a temperature they
    could read, only that they did not go high enough. Not much was
    learned from this experiment.

    Quoted message said:

    To avoid the crud, how about putting them inside the tire, under the
    rim strip. It's a pain, but might work better.

    Huh? What problem does this solve? What crud are you talking about?
    And finally, "work better" than what?

    I misread your first paragraph. I read the "to crude" as "to crud",
    not the "too crude" that you intended.

    Joe

  8. [email hidden] wrote in message ...

    Quoted message said:
    Frank Krygowski said:

    As an alternative, an infrared thermometer could be used.

    Use black rim. Mount IR therm. in bracket on h'bar, use wire clip to hold
    trigger on for constant reding whilst decending.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    These are non-contact, and might even be rigged to get readings
    while riding the bike. These things can measure up to the melting
    temperature of aluminum, which is probably enough range.

    How else do you measure infrared radiation it not optically.

    Jobst Brandt
    [email hidden]

    You can use your tongue, photograph it with a recognised colour chart and we
    can check for necessary sear marking. A ten second hold should do it.

    Trevor

  9. Jim Smith wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Frank Krygowski said:
    Quoted message said:

    Frank Krygowski writes:

    >One brand of these is Tempilabel, and at least some of them read up
    >to 500 deg. F. That ought to cover things. See:
    http://www.tempil.com/pdf/Tempilabel.pdf

    >or see Omega's offerings at:
    http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=TL-10

    >As an alternative, an infrared thermometer could be used.
    http://www.omega.com/toc_asp/section.asp?book=temperature&section=j
    If you've got one, make some measurements,

    I've got access to one. What I lack is the mountain.

    Quoted message said:


    >These are non-contact, and might even be rigged to get readings
    >while riding the bike. These things can measure up to the melting
    >temperature of aluminum, which is probably enough range.
    How else do you measure infrared radiation it not optically.


    I just ran accross this:

    http://www.bicyclesource.com/bike/choosing/brakes-paper.shtml

    The page mentions that "oven tests" for rim brakes were being proposed
    by the CPSC in the 70s. Anyone know anything about this?

    It was given up due to excessive divorce settlements.

    Trevor

  10. Joe Riel wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Carl Fogel writes:

    I've done that and all the temperature spots turned from silver to
    black, indicating that the strips don't go high enough and their
    sensitivity to crude.

    This was a red tape with silver spots calibrated in degrees. They
    turn black when their temperature is reached. I did this long ago and
    do not recall the name of the product or how high a temperature they
    could read, only that they did not go high enough. Not much was
    learned from this experiment.

    To avoid the crud, how about putting them inside the tire, under
    the rim strip. It's a pain, but might work better.

    Yes but who is going to read it?

    Trevor

  11. Mark McMaster wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Mike Jacoubowsky said:

    >>Are you suspecting that the air temp in the tube actually exceeds
    >>100C? In the 0-100C example, the pressure differential didn't
    >>appear to be enough to blow a (properly mounted) tire off of a rim
    >>(from 100psi to 136psi).
    >

    Quoted message said:

    >That depends on how long the tube is exposed to how high a
    >temperature. What is proven is that you can blow a tire off the
    >rim with brake heating.

    Quoted message said:

    That it happens isn't questionable. Why it happens is. A tire
    ought to be able to handle a pretty significant amount of pressure
    over what it's rated for. A typical tire will easily handle 150psi
    before blowing off a rim (easily proven in the shop). But I'm not
    seeing the physics (yet) that show a high-enough temperature
    differential to accomplish this. That's why I'm thinking there's
    more to it than just an increase in pressure.

    Did you try riding that wheel with the tire at 150psi? I suspect that
    riding it on flatland, with no braking, that it would come off. I am
    not convinced by a static test. Would you test ride that?

    I have, and the tire didn't come off. I have a set of
    Vredestein Fortezza Pista tires, which are spec.'ed with a
    maximum pressure of 145 psi. When competing in time trials
    of up to 40 km, I have been known to inflate them to maximum
    pressure, or maybe a smidgen more. I also compete in roller
    races where I inflate these tires to 160 psi. They are
    mounted on a set of Campagnolo Shamal wheels. They have
    never even given a hit of coming off.


    Rims have blown apart at lower tyre pressures than this. At what tyre
    pressure will a rim sustain with what amount of wear? Do rim manufacturers
    publish such data? Are they too concerned about machined surfaces?

    Trevor

  12. "Trevor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]

    Quoted message said:

    DRS wrote in message ...

    [...]

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    FWIW, when Anna Meares was interviewed the other night at one point
    she said she was running at 220psi, but obviously she was using
    tubulars.


    That pressure amazes me. Anna Meares, Australian, sprint gold medal?

    Yes.

    Quoted message said:

    What makes it obvious tubulars were used?

    Something she said about gluing the tyres to the rims.

    --

    A: Top-posters.
    Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?

  13. I've put together a theoretical analysis of the rim temperature rise
    during steady state braking. A pdf (40kB) is available at
    www.k-online.com/~joer/cycling/rim-heating.pdf.

    A few excerpts:

    The worst-case velocity (maximum rim temperature) occurs at
    Vterm/sqrt(5), where Vterm is the terminal velocity (no braking).

    The computed maximum temperature rise for a 200 lb bike/rider on a 10%
    slope with a terminal velocity of 45mph (a guess), is 100degC,
    for continually braking with just one wheel.

    Joe Riel

  14. Trevor said:

    Frank Krygowski wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    I know that typical blowoffs don't rip the tire this way. Still, I
    wonder if this gives further evidence that the problem is related to the
    effect of temperature on the materials. I think most of us agree it's
    not simply high pressure doing the damage.

    I'll timidly (all things are relative) suggest that the sidewall was worn
    possibly due to normally operating said tyre at a low pressure.

    Nope. No way. As I said, I know the tire was originally at 100 to 105
    psi because it's _always_ at that pressure.

    Quoted message said:

    With the
    tyre resting against the car, jack, toolbox or other clutter...

    Again, nope. At least, I _know_ it wasn't resting on a jack or toolbox.
    There's no such thing in that compartment of the car. It may have
    been resting against a part of the car's plastic interior trim, because
    it's done that hundreds of times before and/or since. Without problems,
    of course.

    --
    --------------------+
    Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com,
    replace with cc.ysu dot edu]

  15. Joe Riel said:

    I've put together a theoretical analysis of the rim temperature rise
    during steady state braking. A pdf (40kB) is available at
    www.k-online.com/~joer/cycling/rim-heating.pdf.

    A few excerpts:

    The worst-case velocity (maximum rim temperature) occurs at
    Vterm/sqrt(5), where Vterm is the terminal velocity (no braking).

    The computed maximum temperature rise for a 200 lb bike/rider on a
    10% slope with a terminal velocity of 45mph (a guess), is 100degC,
    for continually braking with just one wheel.

    According to Angel Rodriquez and Carla Black in _The Tandem Book_:

    "We have had heat-sensing stickers on our wheels for many years. A
    fully loaded tandem making an emergency stop on a steep hill can raise
    the rim temperature to 240 degrees Fahrenheit in about twenty seconds.
    We have never gotten the rims over 200 degrees in the course of normal
    riding, but other tandemists have raised the temperature of their rims
    to over 250 degrees on long down hills. Heat sensing stickers are
    made by the Markal Company of Chicago." There is a photo of these
    stickers on page 107 of the cited book.

    A Google search does turn up the Markal Company (under www.laco.com)
    but no such product is listed on their Web site. "Heat sensing
    sticker" is not a useful search phrase, either. "Self-adhesive
    temperature indicator" is somewhat more successful I have no idea of
    how accurately calibrated these things might be. However, anecdotal
    reports of descending wet mountain roads and having the rims get hot
    enough from braking to produce steam would be consistent with what
    Rodriguez and Black report.

    http://www.tempil.com/productdisplay.asp has a similar looking product
    under the "Tempilabel" name.

  16. Tim McNamara said:

    A Google search does turn up the Markal Company (under www.laco.com)
    but no such product is listed on their Web site. "Heat sensing
    sticker" is not a useful search phrase, either. "Self-adhesive
    temperature indicator" is somewhat more successful I have no idea of
    how accurately calibrated these things might be. However, anecdotal
    reports of descending wet mountain roads and having the rims get hot
    enough from braking to produce steam would be consistent with what
    Rodriguez and Black report.

    http://www.tempil.com/productdisplay.asp has a similar looking product
    under the "Tempilabel" name.

    Heat Indicating labels (some are reversible), crayons, cement, and lacquers:

    http://www.omega.com/toc_asp/sectionSC.asp?section=F&book=temperature

    --
    Don McAllaster
    Shrewsbury, Mass.

  17. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I have, and the tire didn't come off. I have a set of
    Vredestein Fortezza Pista tires, which are spec.'ed with a
    maximum pressure of 145 psi. When competing in time trials
    of up to 40 km, I have been known to inflate them to maximum
    pressure, or maybe a smidgen more. I also compete in roller
    races where I inflate these tires to 160 psi. They are
    mounted on a set of Campagnolo Shamal wheels. They have
    never even given a hit of coming off.


    Rims have blown apart at lower tyre pressures than this. At what tyre
    pressure will a rim sustain with what amount of wear? Do rim manufacturers
    publish such data? Are they too concerned about machined surfaces?

    FWIW, Mavic specifies maximum recommended pressures for their rims by tire
    size. Example:
    http://www.mavic.com/servlet/srt/mavic/road-prod_fiche?product.id=55&lg=uk

    Chris Neary
    [email hidden]

    "Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could
    you ask of life? Bicycling combined all the elements I
    loved" - Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh

  18. Chris Neary said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I have, and the tire didn't come off. I have a set of Vredestein
    Fortezza Pista tires, which are spec.'ed with a maximum pressure
    of 145 psi. When competing in time trials of up to 40 km, I have
    been known to inflate them to maximum pressure, or maybe a smidgen
    more. I also compete in roller races where I inflate these tires
    to 160 psi. They are mounted on a set of Campagnolo Shamal
    wheels. They have never even given a hit of coming off.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Rims have blown apart at lower tyre pressures than this. At what
    tyre pressure will a rim sustain with what amount of wear? Do rim
    manufacturers publish such data? Are they too concerned about
    machined surfaces?

    Quoted message said:

    FWIW, Mavic specifies maximum recommended pressures for their rims
    by tire size. Example:

    Quoted message said:

    http://www.mavic.com/servlet/srt/mavic/road-prod_fiche?product.id=55&lg=uk

    These numbers seem to arise from tire casing tension which increases
    with cross section but is unrelated to blow-off pressure which is
    entirely dependent on rim width. A free body diagram of pressure will
    reveal that only air pressure, acting at the inside-to-inside width of
    the rim, acts on the tire to affect lift-off force. I have no doubt
    that casing failures are directly related to tire size (cross section)
    but this is not related to lift-off force.

    Jobst Brandt
    [email hidden]

  19. Frank Krygowski wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Trevor said:

    Frank Krygowski wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    I know that typical blowoffs don't rip the tire this way. Still, I
    wonder if this gives further evidence that the problem is related to the
    effect of temperature on the materials. I think most of us agree it's
    not simply high pressure doing the damage.


    Perhaps there are nicks on the hook of the rim, either escaping quality
    control or subsequent damage due to mishandling, including the use of hard,
    possibly steel, tyre levers. Because the tyre flexes with each rotation, a
    small burr on the rim may cut the tyre casing. Eventually it rips a small
    amount and when left in the boot the tubes pressure is sufficient to tear
    the tyre apart.

    Trevor

  20. Why not glue wired on tyres? All the disadvantages of both tub's and wired
    ons. Not true. No needle to put through tube.

    Trevor
    ]

    DRS wrote in message ...

    Quoted message said:

    "Trevor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]

    Quoted message said:

    DRS wrote in message ...

    [...]

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    FWIW, when Anna Meares was interviewed the other night at one point
    she said she was running at 220psi, but obviously she was using
    tubulars.


    That pressure amazes me. Anna Meares, Australian, sprint gold medal?

    Yes.

    Quoted message said:

    What makes it obvious tubulars were used?

    Something she said about gluing the tyres to the rims.

    --

    A: Top-posters.
    Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?

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