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Home Truths

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UK and Europe
Published
23 August 2004
Last activity
25 August 2004
Original author
Colin Blackburn
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17
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  1. On Saturday's edition of the R4 programme there were a couple of
    cycle-related items. Home Truths is repeated this evening at 11pm for
    those interested, or you could always 'Listen Again' before next Saturday.

    The main item featured the guy cycling to China, currently bikeless in
    Ulan Bator. I had forgotten that this was the guy whose reticent departure
    was featured on the same programme some weeks ago.

    The second mention of bikes is from someone claiming they knew someone who
    got a speeding ticket for cycling. This is then followed up by a police
    officer failing to understand the situation himself despite trying to
    clear things up. He claims that cycling offences are essentially scaled
    down motoring offences, suggesting some sort or parallel between the
    offences.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/hometruths/

    Colin

  2. Quoted message said:

    The second mention of bikes is from someone claiming they knew someone who
    got a speeding ticket for cycling.

    Boss at work was telling me today he met a bloke on holiday, from Sheffield,
    who was a keen cyclist. The bloke claims he got stopped for speeding and
    crossing the double white line on a Snake Pass descent, and what's more he
    got points on his driving licence to boot. I thought it all sounded like a
    tall tale to me.... anyone know different?

    bfn,

    Tony B

  3. in message <[email hidden]>, Tony B

    (') said:
    Quoted message said:

    The second mention of bikes is from someone claiming they knew
    someone who got a speeding ticket for cycling.

    Boss at work was telling me today he met a bloke on holiday, from
    Sheffield, who was a keen cyclist. The bloke claims he got stopped for
    speeding and crossing the double white line on a Snake Pass descent,
    and what's more he got points on his driving licence to boot. I
    thought it all sounded like a tall tale to me.... anyone know
    different?

    I suspect that either it's a tall tale of his defence lawyer was
    incompetent. There's no legal speed limit for cycling (although you can
    be prosecuted for 'cycling furiously'😉. However if his solicitor didn't
    know that it wasn't illegal he may just have assumed it was. Crossing
    the double white line _may_ be another matter.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    ... a mild, inoffensive sadist...

  4. Tony B [email hidden] opined the following...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The second mention of bikes is from someone claiming they knew someone who
    got a speeding ticket for cycling.

    Boss at work was telling me today he met a bloke on holiday, from Sheffield,
    who was a keen cyclist. The bloke claims he got stopped for speeding and
    crossing the double white line on a Snake Pass descent, and what's more he
    got points on his driving licence to boot. I thought it all sounded like a
    tall tale to me.... anyone know different?

    Very likely a tall tale. It sounds vaguely plausible until the mention
    of his licence. Given that there is no requirement for a driving licence
    to ride a bike I doubt that you can get points on your licence for
    crimes commited on a bike.

    Jon

  5. Tony B said:
    Quoted message said:

    The second mention of bikes is from someone claiming they knew someone who
    got a speeding ticket for cycling.

    Boss at work was telling me today he met a bloke on holiday, from Sheffield,
    who was a keen cyclist. The bloke claims he got stopped for speeding and
    crossing the double white line on a Snake Pass descent, and what's more he
    got points on his driving licence to boot. I thought it all sounded like a
    tall tale to me.... anyone know different?

    If an adult says "my bike" to 50% of the population they assume you mean
    "my motorbike". Could this have been the case?

  6. Quoted message said:

    If an adult says "my bike" to 50% of the population they assume you mean
    "my motorbike". Could this have been the case?

    Defo not, as the gaffer related it to me... he was adamant he got pulled on
    his bicycle. I reckon the bloke was pulling his leg....

    bfn,

    Tony B

  7. Tony B said:
    Quoted message said:

    The second mention of bikes is from someone claiming they knew someone who
    got a speeding ticket for cycling.

    Boss at work was telling me today he met a bloke on holiday, from Sheffield,
    who was a keen cyclist. The bloke claims he got stopped for speeding and
    crossing the double white line on a Snake Pass descent, and what's more he
    got points on his driving licence to boot. I thought it all sounded like a
    tall tale to me.... anyone know different?

    Snake Pass isn't covered by some other legislation, is it, because of
    being in a National Park?

    (E.g. Richmond Park, being a crown park, does mean that speeding on a
    bike is an offence - and people have been booked for it.)

  8. On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:13:08 +0100 someone who may be "Colin
    Blackburn" <[email hidden]> wrote this:-

    Quoted message said:

    This is then followed up by a police
    officer failing to understand the situation himself despite trying to
    clear things up. He claims that cycling offences are essentially scaled
    down motoring offences, suggesting some sort or parallel between the
    offences.

    The typical police officer knows bugger all about the law relating
    to cyclists. I have seen one try and claim that a no motor vehicles
    sign means cycling is not allowed.

    --
    David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
    I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
    prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

  9. David Hansen said:


    The typical police officer knows bugger all about the law relating
    to cyclists. I have seen one try and claim that a no motor vehicles
    sign means cycling is not allowed.

    I have been on the receiving end of that claim. After discussing it
    rationally for a short while I gave up and cycled off. I suspect that
    while I was in teh right regarding teh sign, teh instant I cycled off
    with him saying "oi, stop", I was comitting an offence. Never heard
    any more about it, though.

    regards, Ian Smith
    --
    |\ /| no .sig
    |o o|
    |/ \|

  10. In message <[email hidden]>, Colin Blackburn
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    The second mention of bikes is from someone claiming they knew someone
    who got a speeding ticket for cycling. This is then followed up by a
    police officer failing to understand the situation himself despite
    trying to clear things up. He claims that cycling offences are
    essentially scaled down motoring offences, suggesting some sort or
    parallel between the offences.

    Call me a sad old git if you like but I have sent the following to the
    BBC twice over the last fortnight since the original article. They have
    not acknowledged or contacted me. Just broadcast the drivel claiming to
    come from a PC in the Met!

    ====================================================

    Cyclists are NOT subject to speed limits

    Let us clear this up for once and for all. At the time of writing it is
    not illegal for a pedal cycle to be ridden in excess of the speed limit
    on any public road (highway) in England and Wales. Pedal Cyclists
    cannot be prosecuted for speeding nor can they be issued with a fixed
    penalty ticket for speeding on the public roads.

    The Pedal cycle construction and use regulations do not require a pedal
    cycle to be fitted with any device for measuring speed.

    If a cyclist rides their machine furiously, dangerously, without due
    care and attention, without reasonable consideration for other users of
    the road or under the influence of drink or drugs they may be subject to
    prosecution. ( ss 28 to 30 Road Traffic Act 1988). If a cyclist rides
    a machine not constructed or adapted for the carriage of more than one
    person whilst it is carrying more than one person or rides a cycle on a
    footway then they may be prosecuted or issued with fixed penalty
    notices. (There are other cycling offences, including selling a bike
    not fitted with a bell but they are outside the scope of this paper.)

    Racing pedal cycles on a highway is permitted under certain
    circumstances set out in s31 Road Traffic Act 1988. This section
    contains no exception to speed limits, it does not need one because
    there are none,

    To Labour the point, fixed penalty notices may not be issued to cyclists
    for speeding with the possible exception of speeding in the Royal Parks.

    There are speed regulations which apply to the roads in Royal Parks. The
    park regulations refer to 'any vehicle' rather than 'motor vehicle'.
    Cycles may only be ridden on Park Roads see (Reg. 2(28) except that from
    May 2004 children up to the age of ten will be allowed to cycle on park
    footpaths.) It would appear, therefore that the speed limits that apply
    on those roads apply to cyclists. I have no precedent to go on which
    indicates whether this view has been taken.

    The Royal Parks and Other Open Spaces Regulations 1997
    (Statutory Instrument 1997 No. 1639)

    2. No person, without the written permission of the Secretary of State,
    shall-
    (4) use… any pedal cycle, or other foot propelled device… except on
    a Park road or in an area designated and marked as being for that
    purpose by the Secretary of State;…
    (28) drive or ride any vehicle on a Park road in excess of the speed
    specified in relation to that road in Part II of Schedule 2 to these
    Regulations;

    There is no circumstance where anything done by a cyclist in control of
    a pedal cycle will lead to their driving licence being endorsed with
    penalty points. (Although there are provisions that make it possible for
    any offender to be disqualified from driving for any offence (see s. 146
    Powers of Criminal Courts Sentencing Act 2000)

    Speed limits on Ordinary Roads are set by the Road Traffic Regulation
    Act 1984

    81 General speed limit for restricted roads
    (1) It shall not be lawful for a person to drive a MOTOR VEHICLE on a
    restricted road at a speed exceeding 30 miles per hour.

    Pedal cycles are not motor vehicles. A restricted road is one with
    streetlights set at a minimum distance.

    Sections 84 to 89 of the same act refer to other types of road, types of
    vehicle, signage, temporary limits, emergency vehicles and to the
    offence of 'speeding'. They all apply only to Motor Vehicles.

    To sum up and repeat ad nauseam

    Pedal cycles are NOT subject to speed limits on public roads.

    Pedal cyclists cannot be prosecuted for speeding.

    Pedal cyclists cannot be given fixed penalty notices for speeding.

    --
    Keeper

  11. Simon Brooke <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    I suspect that either it's a tall tale of his defence lawyer was
    incompetent. There's no legal speed limit for cycling (although you can
    be prosecuted for 'cycling furiously'😉. However if his solicitor didn't
    know that it wasn't illegal he may just have assumed it was. Crossing
    the double white line _may_ be another matter.

    Double white lines are covered by the same section of the RTA 1988 -
    s36 as traffic lights and apply to all vehicles.
    Iain

  12. in message <[email hidden]>, iarocu

    (') said:

    Simon Brooke <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    I suspect that either it's a tall tale of his defence lawyer was
    incompetent. There's no legal speed limit for cycling (although you
    can be prosecuted for 'cycling furiously'😉. However if his solicitor
    didn't know that it wasn't illegal he may just have assumed it was.
    Crossing the double white line _may_ be another matter.

    Double white lines are covered by the same section of the RTA 1988 -
    s36 as traffic lights and apply to all vehicles.

    And presumably you can have your license endorsed for crossing one. So
    that's probably the truth of the story - that he was prosecuted and
    fined for crossing the line, not for speeding.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    ;; If you're doing this for fun, do what seems fun. If you're
    ;; doing it for money, stop now.
    ;; Rainer Deyke

  13. Simon Brooke [email hidden] opined the following...

    Quoted message said:

    And presumably you can have your license endorsed for crossing one. So
    that's probably the truth of the story - that he was prosecuted and
    fined for crossing the line, not for speeding.

    I doubt it, because the licence only relates to motor vehicles and is
    not necessary for a pedal bike. I think that if he managed to get points
    on his driving licence for RTA crimes committed on a pedal bike then he
    needs to discuss reimbursement with his lawyer.

    Jon

  14. In message <[email hidden]>, Jon Senior
    <jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk@?.?.invalid> writes

    Quoted message said:

    Simon Brooke [email hidden] opined the following...

    Quoted message said:

    And presumably you can have your license endorsed for crossing one. So
    that's probably the truth of the story - that he was prosecuted and
    fined for crossing the line, not for speeding.

    I doubt it, because the licence only relates to motor vehicles and is
    not necessary for a pedal bike. I think that if he managed to get points
    on his driving licence for RTA crimes committed on a pedal bike then he
    needs to discuss reimbursement with his lawyer.

    Jon

    Excerpt from schedule 2 Road Traffic Offenders Act

    RTA section 36
    Offence: Failing to comply with traffic signs
    Triable: Summarily
    Max. Penalty Level 3 on the standard scale (£1000)
    Disqualification Discretionary, if committed in respect of a
    motor vehicle
    by failure to comply with an indication
    given by a sign
    specified for the purposes of this paragraph
    (that includes the said double white lines)

    It occurs to me that a lot of these offences may have been dealt with by
    fixed penalty with no legal advice whatsoever. If anyone has points on
    their licence they should be removed. If anyone has paid a fixed
    penalty for speeding on a public road (outside the Royal Parks) that
    money should be refunded.

    --
    Keeper

  15. Keeper [email hidden] opined the following...

    Quoted message said:

    Excerpt from schedule 2 Road Traffic Offenders Act

    RTA section 36
    Offence: Failing to comply with traffic signs
    Triable: Summarily
    Max. Penalty Level 3 on the standard scale (£1000)
    Disqualification Discretionary, if committed in respect of a
    motor vehicle
    by failure to comply with an indication
    given by a sign
    specified for the purposes of this paragraph
    (that includes the said double white lines)

    It occurs to me that a lot of these offences may have been dealt with by
    fixed penalty with no legal advice whatsoever. If anyone has points on
    their licence they should be removed. If anyone has paid a fixed
    penalty for speeding on a public road (outside the Royal Parks) that
    money should be refunded.

    So I was right in my presumption... If anyone knows the hapless cycling
    offender, please be sure to laugh at them in a suitably derisory manner.

    Jon

  16. Simon Brooke said:

    And presumably you can have your license endorsed for crossing one. So
    that's probably the truth of the story - that he was prosecuted and
    fined for crossing the line, not for speeding.

    A few too many presumptions in this thread 😉

    BUT. While you can have your licence endorsed for such, should you have
    your driving licence endorsed if the offence was committed while you
    were not driving something that needed that licence? That doesn't seem
    particularly likely.

  17. In message <[email hidden]>, chris harrison
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:
    Simon Brooke said:

    And presumably you can have your license endorsed for crossing one. So
    that's probably the truth of the story - that he was prosecuted and
    fined for crossing the line, not for speeding.

    A few too many presumptions in this thread 😉

    BUT. While you can have your licence endorsed for such, should you have
    your driving licence endorsed if the offence was committed while you
    were not driving something that needed that licence? That doesn't seem
    particularly likely.


    That's because it is not true. The licence can only be endorsed for
    offences committed whilst driving/using a motor vehicle (or for aiding /
    abetting / permitting offences). You can be disqualified for any
    offence at all (s. 146 Powers of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000)
    look it up on HMSO website if you don't believe me.
    --
    Keeper

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