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Spoke Over-Tension and Drifting Wheel Alignment

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Cycling Equipment
Published
24 August 2004
Last activity
25 August 2004
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mCrux
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  1. Last December I commuted 30 miles a day on an old Specialized Allez Sport
    that increasingly suffered from cracked chain stays. As the bike fell apart,
    the cheap generic spokes broke frequently and the RX-100 components had
    degraded to near uselessness.With patience and greasy hands at the curbside,
    I was able to keep up with replacing the breaking spokes for several weeks,
    but with each broken spoke I got a close-up reality check on how fast the
    chain stays were giving way. Despite my crunch budget as a student, the
    specter of catastrophic frame failure was not only enough for me to keep my
    speed below 20 mph, but also to fork over $1500 at the LBS for a new bike. I
    depend upon the bike for transportation, and so this was the way to go.

    In January, I decided to buy a Redline Disc-R (disc-brake road bike) to
    replace my commuter/road bike and I walked into a LBS that was supposed to
    be receiving one in my size, and I told the staff I was there to buy. The
    shop promptly required a down payment, but I got a call later in the week
    and was told the bike was in the shop, assembled, tuned, and ready to roll.
    I showed up, saw the bike, and paid the balance. The sales person insisted
    on wheeling the bike back to the mechanics' shop for a "final check to be
    sure everything is adjusted right." Seconds later, the sales person rolled
    the bike back out to me on the showroom floor and announced the bike was all
    ready to go!

    I took the bike home, and the next day I returned the wheels to the LBS to
    have them re-tensioned because they were grossly out of true. Although with
    disc brakes the bike could function despite the wheel wobble, I was afraid
    that if I rode the wheels in that condition it would ruin them. The rear
    wheel actually had a 1/4" wobble. The mechanic was friendly, but dismissed
    the wheel wobble problem as a minor one. In a couple minutes, he made spoke
    adjustments that significantly reduced the wheel wobble, and he explained it
    was not necessary to re-tension the wheels because all the spokes were at a
    similar amount of tension.

    Four months later, while I sat on a park bench next to the bike, I heard a
    spoke snap. It seemed really strange for a spoke to break when the bike
    wasn't being ridden, but I recalled having just gone over a series of
    stutter bumps and I attributed thermal expansion of the rim to be the final
    straw since it was the first hot sunny day of the season. At the same time,
    the wheels had never been subjected to any hard collisions with curbs or
    potholes or anything like that, so I was concerned by the implications of
    this spontaneous failure. Coincidentally, I was only two blocks away from
    the shop where I purchased the bike.

    After buying the bike, in aversion to the original bright red finish and the
    many "steal-me" decals, I repainted the frame. When I wheeled it into the
    shop, nobody realized it was originally purchased there only a few months
    earlier. The shop's mechanic explained the spoke snapped because the spokes
    were badly tensioned and of cheap generic quality. The shop had no
    replacement spokes of correct length, and therefore sent me to a sister shop
    located several blocks away. At the sister shop, I got the same explanation:
    'Bad work, bad parts.'

    The next day, I took the wheel to a different shop and learned the spokes
    are of brand quality (Sapim) but that they were all extremely over
    tightened. The mechanic at this shop expressed amazement that the wheel was
    surviving the high tension of the spokes. I asked him to re-tension the
    wheel, but the mechanic refused, saying the wheel was ruined and all he
    could do was replace the spoke and make some adjustments to minimize the hop
    caused by the wheel damage and help me get a few more miles before having to
    replace the wheel.

    I had truthfully told the mechanic that I'd never taken a spoke wrench to
    the wheel, nor hit anything with it, but the mechanic doubted my veracity.
    He insisted I must have hit something really hard with the wheel and then
    tried to fix it myself and caused further damage. Then he asked if I'd
    gotten the bike serviced since I bought it. I told him the truth and he
    decided that the spokes were too tight because I had not taken the bike in
    for a complete tune up after the first few hundred miles.

    I admit I privately disbelieved the statement that the spokes could have
    spontaneously self-tightened to the point of extreme tension, but the
    mechanic did provide convincing information that lead me to the following
    conclusions: One, the wheel had been poorly built because the spokes were
    way too tight. Two, this condition of excessive tension caused damage and
    resulted in reduced life expectancy for the wheel. Three, I'd likely have to
    replace the rim and spokes soon.

    As it has turned out, no more spokes have broken on this wheel in the 2,000
    miles covered since the spontaneous spoke failure. Not all is hunky dory,
    however. Over time, it appears that the rim is actually drifting to the
    left, affecting the wheel alignment in the frame. When the bike was new, I
    observed the wheel was centered in the frame stays. Now, the bike has
    started to track a little bit to the right. Any ride of over 50 miles now
    causes a bit of pain on left side of my groin, as if I were sitting
    off-center over the nose of the saddle, and the bike no longer has the
    no-hands stability that is used to have.

    When I dismount and take a closer look, I can see things that don't add up
    right. The tire is visibly offset in the chain stays by an 1/8 of an inch;
    that is, the gap between the rim and the chain stay on the right is 1/4"
    greater than the gap on the left! At first, I was afraid the misalignment
    was a frame problem, but string-line measurements indicate the frame is
    actually pretty straight. Next, I was worried about the dropouts, and
    wondered if they are tweaked-out somehow. So I borrowed and installed a new
    wheel, just to see how the alignment looks with that, and observe no
    indications of alignment problems with the new wheel installed.

    Now, here is my theory: The spokes on the cassette side are the tightest, of
    course, since they are shorter to accommodate the dish of the wheel. In the
    alleged over-tensioned state, these spokes are stretching under the cyclic
    stressing of normal use. As the right-side spokes now yield to the excessive
    tension, the left-side spokes apparently are contracting as the yielding
    spokes effectively grow longer. The change in effective spoke length is
    enough to shift the rim to the left 1/8" and this is why the wheel is now
    1/4" closer to the left chain stay, compared to its distance from the right
    chain stay.

    When I ride the bike, this offset of the rear wheel requires compensation by
    the direction of the front wheel or by the camber of tires exerted by
    leaning the bicycle slightly to the left. As such, the bike is generally
    tilted to the side and therefore I really do sit with extra pressure on the
    left side of my groin and the bike really is no longer as balanced and
    stable when underway.

    Comments? Recommendations?

    mykal in Seattle

  2. mCrux said:

    Last December I commuted 30 miles a day on an old Specialized Allez Sport
    that increasingly suffered from cracked chain stays. As the bike fell apart,
    the cheap generic spokes broke frequently and the RX-100 components had
    degraded to near uselessness.With patience and greasy hands at the curbside,
    I was able to keep up with replacing the breaking spokes for several weeks,
    but with each broken spoke I got a close-up reality check on how fast the
    chain stays were giving way. Despite my crunch budget as a student, the
    specter of catastrophic frame failure was not only enough for me to keep my
    speed below 20 mph, but also to fork over $1500 at the LBS for a new bike. I
    depend upon the bike for transportation, and so this was the way to go.

    In January, I decided to buy a Redline Disc-R (disc-brake road bike) to
    replace my commuter/road bike and I walked into a LBS that was supposed to
    be receiving one in my size, and I told the staff I was there to buy. The
    shop promptly required a down payment, but I got a call later in the week
    and was told the bike was in the shop, assembled, tuned, and ready to roll.
    I showed up, saw the bike, and paid the balance. The sales person insisted
    on wheeling the bike back to the mechanics' shop for a "final check to be
    sure everything is adjusted right." Seconds later, the sales person rolled
    the bike back out to me on the showroom floor and announced the bike was all
    ready to go!

    I took the bike home, and the next day I returned the wheels to the LBS to
    have them re-tensioned because they were grossly out of true. Although with
    disc brakes the bike could function despite the wheel wobble, I was afraid
    that if I rode the wheels in that condition it would ruin them. The rear
    wheel actually had a 1/4" wobble. The mechanic was friendly, but dismissed
    the wheel wobble problem as a minor one. In a couple minutes, he made spoke
    adjustments that significantly reduced the wheel wobble, and he explained it
    was not necessary to re-tension the wheels because all the spokes were at a
    similar amount of tension.

    Four months later, while I sat on a park bench next to the bike, I heard a
    spoke snap. It seemed really strange for a spoke to break when the bike
    wasn't being ridden, but I recalled having just gone over a series of
    stutter bumps and I attributed thermal expansion of the rim to be the final
    straw since it was the first hot sunny day of the season. At the same time,
    the wheels had never been subjected to any hard collisions with curbs or
    potholes or anything like that, so I was concerned by the implications of
    this spontaneous failure. Coincidentally, I was only two blocks away from
    the shop where I purchased the bike.

    After buying the bike, in aversion to the original bright red finish and the
    many "steal-me" decals, I repainted the frame. When I wheeled it into the
    shop, nobody realized it was originally purchased there only a few months
    earlier. The shop's mechanic explained the spoke snapped because the spokes
    were badly tensioned and of cheap generic quality. The shop had no
    replacement spokes of correct length, and therefore sent me to a sister shop
    located several blocks away. At the sister shop, I got the same explanation:
    'Bad work, bad parts.'

    The next day, I took the wheel to a different shop and learned the spokes
    are of brand quality (Sapim) but that they were all extremely over
    tightened. The mechanic at this shop expressed amazement that the wheel was
    surviving the high tension of the spokes. I asked him to re-tension the
    wheel, but the mechanic refused, saying the wheel was ruined and all he
    could do was replace the spoke and make some adjustments to minimize the hop
    caused by the wheel damage and help me get a few more miles before having to
    replace the wheel.

    I had truthfully told the mechanic that I'd never taken a spoke wrench to
    the wheel, nor hit anything with it, but the mechanic doubted my veracity.
    He insisted I must have hit something really hard with the wheel and then
    tried to fix it myself and caused further damage. Then he asked if I'd
    gotten the bike serviced since I bought it. I told him the truth and he
    decided that the spokes were too tight because I had not taken the bike in
    for a complete tune up after the first few hundred miles.

    I admit I privately disbelieved the statement that the spokes could have
    spontaneously self-tightened to the point of extreme tension, but the
    mechanic did provide convincing information that lead me to the following
    conclusions: One, the wheel had been poorly built because the spokes were
    way too tight. Two, this condition of excessive tension caused damage and
    resulted in reduced life expectancy for the wheel. Three, I'd likely have to
    replace the rim and spokes soon.

    As it has turned out, no more spokes have broken on this wheel in the 2,000
    miles covered since the spontaneous spoke failure. Not all is hunky dory,
    however. Over time, it appears that the rim is actually drifting to the
    left, affecting the wheel alignment in the frame. When the bike was new, I
    observed the wheel was centered in the frame stays. Now, the bike has
    started to track a little bit to the right. Any ride of over 50 miles now
    causes a bit of pain on left side of my groin, as if I were sitting
    off-center over the nose of the saddle, and the bike no longer has the
    no-hands stability that is used to have.

    When I dismount and take a closer look, I can see things that don't add up
    right. The tire is visibly offset in the chain stays by an 1/8 of an inch;
    that is, the gap between the rim and the chain stay on the right is 1/4"
    greater than the gap on the left! At first, I was afraid the misalignment
    was a frame problem, but string-line measurements indicate the frame is
    actually pretty straight. Next, I was worried about the dropouts, and
    wondered if they are tweaked-out somehow. So I borrowed and installed a new
    wheel, just to see how the alignment looks with that, and observe no
    indications of alignment problems with the new wheel installed.

    Now, here is my theory: The spokes on the cassette side are the tightest, of
    course, since they are shorter to accommodate the dish of the wheel. In the
    alleged over-tensioned state, these spokes are stretching under the cyclic
    stressing of normal use. As the right-side spokes now yield to the excessive
    tension, the left-side spokes apparently are contracting as the yielding
    spokes effectively grow longer. The change in effective spoke length is
    enough to shift the rim to the left 1/8" and this is why the wheel is now
    1/4" closer to the left chain stay, compared to its distance from the right
    chain stay.

    When I ride the bike, this offset of the rear wheel requires compensation by
    the direction of the front wheel or by the camber of tires exerted by
    leaning the bicycle slightly to the left. As such, the bike is generally
    tilted to the side and therefore I really do sit with extra pressure on the
    left side of my groin and the bike really is no longer as balanced and
    stable when underway.

    Comments? Recommendations?

    mykal in Seattle

    Take the wheel to a wheel builder that is trustworthy.
    Ask for a little instruction as well as the required adjustment(s).
    The instruction should include:
    1. his or her use of a centering tool or at least a truing stand the is stable. You can see the same thing in your frame by flipping the wheel over and looking at the centering.
    2. A spoke tension gague on each spoke and write down the readings and what they convert to based on your spokes
    3. A lesson in how to tension relieve.

    You can learn all this on your own by reading "the Bicycle Wheel" by Jobst Brandt. Most library systems have the book and you can by it through most bicycle shops.

  3. My advice is similar to daveornee's; take the wheel to a competent
    wheel builder or follow the recipe in any number of the books on the
    subject; retension, redish and stress-relieve the wheel yourself.
    That 1/4" difference indicates that the wheel is mis-dished by about
    3mm, which is just enough, in my experience, to make a road bike
    misbehave in the manner you describe.

    I doubt that the wheel is beyond saving.
    --
    Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
    Some gardening required to reply via email.
    Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

  4. mCrux wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    Last December I commuted 30 miles a day on an old Specialized Allez Sport
    that increasingly suffered from cracked chain stays. As the bike fell


    apart,

    Quoted message said:

    the cheap generic spokes broke frequently and the RX-100 components had
    degraded to near uselessness.With patience and greasy hands at the


    curbside,

    Quoted message said:

    I was able to keep up with replacing the breaking spokes for several weeks,
    but with each broken spoke I got a close-up reality check on how fast the
    chain stays were giving way. Despite my crunch budget as a student, the
    specter of catastrophic frame failure was not only enough for me to keep my
    speed below 20 mph, but also to fork over $1500 at the LBS for a new bike.


    I

    Quoted message said:

    depend upon the bike for transportation, and so this was the way to go.

    In January, I decided to buy a Redline Disc-R (disc-brake road bike) to
    replace my commuter/road bike and I walked into a LBS that was supposed to
    be receiving one in my size, and I told the staff I was there to buy. The
    shop promptly required a down payment, but I got a call later in the week
    and was told the bike was in the shop, assembled, tuned, and ready to


    roll.

    Quoted message said:

    I showed up, saw the bike, and paid the balance. The sales person insisted
    on wheeling the bike back to the mechanics' shop for a "final check to be
    sure everything is adjusted right." Seconds later, the sales person rolled
    the bike back out to me on the showroom floor and announced the bike was


    all

    Quoted message said:

    ready to go!

    I took the bike home, and the next day I returned the wheels to the LBS to
    have them re-tensioned because they were grossly out of true. Although with
    disc brakes the bike could function despite the wheel wobble, I was afraid
    that if I rode the wheels in that condition it would ruin them. The rear
    wheel actually had a 1/4" wobble. The mechanic was friendly, but dismissed
    the wheel wobble problem as a minor one. In a couple minutes, he made spoke
    adjustments that significantly reduced the wheel wobble, and he explained


    it

    Quoted message said:

    was not necessary to re-tension the wheels because all the spokes were at a
    similar amount of tension.

    Four months later, while I sat on a park bench next to the bike, I heard a
    spoke snap. It seemed really strange for a spoke to break when the bike
    wasn't being ridden, but I recalled having just gone over a series of
    stutter bumps and I attributed thermal expansion of the rim to be the final
    straw since it was the first hot sunny day of the season. At the same time,
    the wheels had never been subjected to any hard collisions with curbs or
    potholes or anything like that, so I was concerned by the implications of
    this spontaneous failure. Coincidentally, I was only two blocks away from
    the shop where I purchased the bike.

    After buying the bike, in aversion to the original bright red finish and


    the

    Quoted message said:

    many "steal-me" decals, I repainted the frame. When I wheeled it into the
    shop, nobody realized it was originally purchased there only a few months
    earlier. The shop's mechanic explained the spoke snapped because the spokes
    were badly tensioned and of cheap generic quality. The shop had no
    replacement spokes of correct length, and therefore sent me to a sister


    shop

    Quoted message said:

    located several blocks away. At the sister shop, I got the same


    explanation:

    Quoted message said:

    'Bad work, bad parts.'

    The next day, I took the wheel to a different shop and learned the spokes
    are of brand quality (Sapim) but that they were all extremely over
    tightened. The mechanic at this shop expressed amazement that the wheel was
    surviving the high tension of the spokes. I asked him to re-tension the
    wheel, but the mechanic refused, saying the wheel was ruined and all he
    could do was replace the spoke and make some adjustments to minimize the


    hop

    Quoted message said:

    caused by the wheel damage and help me get a few more miles before having


    to

    Quoted message said:

    replace the wheel.

    I had truthfully told the mechanic that I'd never taken a spoke wrench to
    the wheel, nor hit anything with it, but the mechanic doubted my veracity.
    He insisted I must have hit something really hard with the wheel and then
    tried to fix it myself and caused further damage. Then he asked if I'd
    gotten the bike serviced since I bought it. I told him the truth and he
    decided that the spokes were too tight because I had not taken the bike in
    for a complete tune up after the first few hundred miles.

    I admit I privately disbelieved the statement that the spokes could have
    spontaneously self-tightened to the point of extreme tension, but the
    mechanic did provide convincing information that lead me to the following
    conclusions: One, the wheel had been poorly built because the spokes were
    way too tight. Two, this condition of excessive tension caused damage and
    resulted in reduced life expectancy for the wheel. Three, I'd likely have


    to

    Quoted message said:

    replace the rim and spokes soon.

    As it has turned out, no more spokes have broken on this wheel in the 2,000
    miles covered since the spontaneous spoke failure. Not all is hunky dory,
    however. Over time, it appears that the rim is actually drifting to the
    left, affecting the wheel alignment in the frame. When the bike was new, I
    observed the wheel was centered in the frame stays. Now, the bike has
    started to track a little bit to the right. Any ride of over 50 miles now
    causes a bit of pain on left side of my groin, as if I were sitting
    off-center over the nose of the saddle, and the bike no longer has the
    no-hands stability that is used to have.

    When I dismount and take a closer look, I can see things that don't add up
    right. The tire is visibly offset in the chain stays by an 1/8 of an inch;
    that is, the gap between the rim and the chain stay on the right is 1/4"
    greater than the gap on the left! At first, I was afraid the misalignment
    was a frame problem, but string-line measurements indicate the frame is
    actually pretty straight. Next, I was worried about the dropouts, and
    wondered if they are tweaked-out somehow. So I borrowed and installed a new
    wheel, just to see how the alignment looks with that, and observe no
    indications of alignment problems with the new wheel installed.

    Now, here is my theory: The spokes on the cassette side are the tightest,


    of

    Quoted message said:

    course, since they are shorter to accommodate the dish of the wheel. In the
    alleged over-tensioned state, these spokes are stretching under the cyclic
    stressing of normal use. As the right-side spokes now yield to the


    excessive

    Quoted message said:

    tension, the left-side spokes apparently are contracting as the yielding
    spokes effectively grow longer. The change in effective spoke length is
    enough to shift the rim to the left 1/8" and this is why the wheel is now
    1/4" closer to the left chain stay, compared to its distance from the right
    chain stay.

    When I ride the bike, this offset of the rear wheel requires compensation


    by

    Quoted message said:

    the direction of the front wheel or by the camber of tires exerted by
    leaning the bicycle slightly to the left. As such, the bike is generally
    tilted to the side and therefore I really do sit with extra pressure on the
    left side of my groin and the bike really is no longer as balanced and
    stable when underway.

    Lateral rim movement on a rear wheel is most easily affected by changes in
    the left spokes, not the right. (unless rim centred between hubshell.)
    1/8" is not a great deviation, so I doubt this is the root of your comfort
    problem. Correct lateral deviation by relaxing left spoke nipples by 1/8
    turn.

    Trevor

  5. mCrux said:

    ...
    The next day, I took the wheel to a different shop and learned the spokes
    are of brand quality (Sapim) but that they were all extremely over
    tightened. The mechanic at this shop expressed amazement that the wheel was
    surviving the high tension of the spokes....

    Was the mechanic drinking Jim Beam? 😉

    --
    Tom Sherman

  6. dave-includes all the post. mCrux said:

    Last December I commuted 30 miles a day on an old Specialized Allez
    Sport
    that increasingly suffered from cracked chain stays. As the bike fell
    apart,
    the cheap generic spokes broke frequently and the RX-100 components
    had
    degraded to near uselessness.With patience and greasy hands at the
    curbside,
    I was able to keep up with replacing the breaking spokes for several
    weeks,
    but with each broken spoke I got a close-up reality check on how fast
    the
    chain stays were giving way. Despite my crunch budget as a student,
    the
    specter of catastrophic frame failure was not only enough for me to
    keep my
    speed below 20 mph, but also to fork over $1500 at the LBS for a new
    bike. I
    depend upon the bike for transportation, >><BR><BR>

    ETC-ya know Dave, i like to read your posts but GEEZZZZZ, do ya need to include
    all the asker's post?? Snippage!!!

    Peter Chisholm
    Vecchio's Bicicletteria
    1833 Pearl St.
    Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535
    http://www.vecchios.com
    "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

  7. <SNIP>3. A lesson in how to tension relieve.

    [/QUOTE]

    I meant lesson on how to stress relieve.
    "the Bicycle Wheel" by Jobst Brandt has this information and some of it at:

    <http://yarchive.net/bike/stress_relieve.html>

    I still think reading/owning the book is the best way. It is a good reference.

    Sorry, Peter, I forgot to <snip> in my previous posting. You forgot to correct my error in Stress Vs. Tension relieve...

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