Lubing Campy Record Hubs

Mark, Replies have been posted to your thread entitled "Lube question
about Record hubs".

~PB

<< Hi Folks. I have new Campy Record Hubs/Mavic Open Pro Rims on my new
Paramount build up. What specific Lube should be OK to use? >><BR><BR>

Times 2...Grease is oil in soap. Use any decent grease, whether 'synthetic' or
petroleum based. Mix and match, you aren't going to hurt anything. keeping them
adjusted well, and giving them a complete takeapart, clean and adjust regularly
is most important.

DO NOT try to thin grease. It has 'soap' in it so that it stays put.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote in message
<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

<< Hi Folks. I have new Campy Record Hubs/Mavic Open Pro Rims on my new
Paramount build up. What specific Lube should be OK to use? >><BR><BR>

Times 2...Grease is oil in soap. Use any decent grease, whether 'synthetic'

or

Quoted message said:

petroleum based. Mix and match, you aren't going to hurt anything. keeping

them

Quoted message said:

adjusted well, and giving them a complete takeapart, clean and adjust

regularly

Quoted message said:

is most important.

DO NOT try to thin grease. It has 'soap' in it so that it stays put.

Adding oil to the grease is not to thin it. It is to ensure that the grease
is loaded with oil and not drying out. Grease can be deemed important in a
rolling bearing because it traps the wear debris so preventing its
entrapment between ball and race and encouraging an early fatigue failure of
the race surface. Oil is essential to lubrication, grease contains oil, but
will dry out. Periodic addition of oil will extend the service period when
the old grease require stripping out due to saturation with wear material.

Trevor

trevor-<< Oil is essential to lubrication, grease contains oil, but
will dry out. Periodic addition of oil will extend the service period when
the old grease require stripping out due to saturation with wear material.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

oh please, maybe if you overhaul your hubs once per decade. I have hubs that
are 5 years old that have grease in them that hasn't 'dried out'. I have a tub
of Campagnolo grease that I have been using for 10 years that isn't dried out.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote in message >

Quoted message said:

oh please, maybe if you overhaul your hubs once per decade. I have hubs

that

Quoted message said:

are 5 years old that have grease in them that hasn't 'dried out'. I have a

tub

Quoted message said:

of Campagnolo grease that I have been using for 10 years that isn't dried

out.

Quoted message said:

yes, but would that grease adequately protect the bearings at 10,000 miles
per years?
My experience says it does not always protect the bearing for one year.

Trevor

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote in message
<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

trevor-<< Oil is essential to lubrication, grease contains oil, but
will dry out. Periodic addition of oil will extend the service period when
the old grease require stripping out due to saturation with wear material.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

oh please, maybe if you overhaul your hubs once per decade. I have hubs

that

Quoted message said:

are 5 years old that have grease in them that hasn't 'dried out'. I have a

tub

Quoted message said:

of Campagnolo grease that I have been using for 10 years that isn't dried

out.

Quoted message said:

How many miles have these 5 year old hubs covered? What grease? How do you
know they haven't dried out? How do you know the condition of the bearings?
A tub of grease is not the same as grease in a rotating bearing.

Trevor

Trevor Jeffrey said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote in message
<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

trevor-<< Oil is essential to lubrication, grease contains oil, but
will dry out. Periodic addition of oil will extend the service period when
the old grease require stripping out due to saturation with wear material.

Quoted message said:

><BR><BR>

oh please, maybe if you overhaul your hubs once per decade. I have hubs

that

Quoted message said:

are 5 years old that have grease in them that hasn't 'dried out'. I have a

tub

Quoted message said:

of Campagnolo grease that I have been using for 10 years that isn't dried

out.

Quoted message said:

How many miles have these 5 year old hubs covered? What grease? How do you
know they haven't dried out? How do you know the condition of the bearings?
A tub of grease is not the same as grease in a rotating bearing.

Trevor

Dear Trevor,

Why would grease "dry out" differently inside a fairly well
sealed tub and inside a fairly well sealed hub?

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Why would grease "dry out" differently inside a fairly well
sealed tub and inside a fairly well sealed hub?

By whatever process, grease in hubs does indeed lose its oil
, leaving the dried crusty soap. There is more of a vent
than a plastic tub affords.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

A Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

Why would grease "dry out" differently inside a fairly well
sealed tub and inside a fairly well sealed hub?

By whatever process, grease in hubs does indeed lose its oil
, leaving the dried crusty soap. There is more of a vent
than a plastic tub affords.

Dear Andrew,

So it's the slight but steady venting through the imprefect
seals that lets grease dry out?

What I was wondering was whether it was a couple of other
things.

Heat degrading the grease and cooking off volatile oils
seemed unlikely, since I doubt that it gets warmer than the
metal hub, but then we're heard about the point contacts of
steering head bearing micro-welding and fretting if they
lose lubricant, so I wondered about tiny local heating.

Churning and aerating the grease seemed more plausible,
since the balls slide in endless circles through the soap.

I also wondered about water leaking in and emulsifying the
grease into the odd gray mess that I see on my chain after a
rainy ride and then seeping out, carrying the lighter oils
with it.

Since I've got someone with a fair amount of experience
handy, what are your thoughts on grease versus oil in a hub?
After five years or ten or whatever the dry-out period is
for grease in hubs, would you expect the oil to have dried
out sooner, later, or roughly the same?

Thanks,

Carl Fogel

trevor-<< yes, but would that grease adequately protect the bearings at 10,000
miles
per years?
My experience says it does not always protect the bearing for one year.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

It has so far. Only grease I use on my own hubs, HS and BB(cup and ball).

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

[email hidden] wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Why would grease "dry out" differently inside a fairly well
sealed tub and inside a fairly well sealed hub?

A hub that is being used has air inside no matter how well sealed. The
constant exposure of the oil, from the grease, to the air as the balls wipe
the grease allows a greater surface area exposed. Eventually there will be
a relatively small contact with the grease as it shrinks back due to reduced
oil loading. Lubrication becomes minimal and the grease has little chance
of collecting bearing wear and so the bearing races usually fail through
fatigue with wear particles impacted into the races.

Trevor

[email hidden] wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Churning and aerating the grease seemed more plausible,
since the balls slide in endless circles through the soap.

Yes. See previous reply to you.

Quoted message said:

I also wondered about water leaking in and emulsifying the
grease into the odd gray mess that I see on my chain after a
rainy ride and then seeping out, carrying the lighter oils
with it.

Bearing wear particles as well as dust contamination will tend to provide
substance for water to cling to. This will cause emulsification with the
moisture assisting in the retention of air so accelerating corrosion. I
feel this is the reason a relatively new hub can be suseptible to corrosion
and not the loss of oil of the grease. There is plenty of wear particles
until the bearings have worn in ang become smooth.

Quoted message said:

Since I've got someone with a fair amount of experience
handy, what are your thoughts on grease versus oil in a hub?
After five years or ten or whatever the dry-out period is
for grease in hubs, would you expect the oil to have dried
out sooner, later, or roughly the same?

I do not propose operating bearings without grease, it collects and retains
wear particles and contaminants, only to supplement it with oil at regular
intervals.

Trevor

20 Aug 2004 23:40:59 -0500 A Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

Why would grease "dry out" differently inside a fairly well
sealed tub and inside a fairly well sealed hub?

By whatever process, grease in hubs does indeed lose its oil
, leaving the dried crusty soap. There is more of a vent
than a plastic tub affords.

Grease is a mixture of oil and soap. The oil lubricates while the soap
is merely a medium to contain and dispense the oil. Oil will separate
from most greases even sitting in a sealed can, and can be seen as a
small puddle of oil sitting on the grease when the can is opened. This
won't be evident unless the can has been unused for a year or so.

At any rate, once the oil is released it will migrate out into the
bearing where it does its job. From there it migrates further, where
it is eventually wiped off with a rag in the process of cleaning up
the bike.

It doesn't really "dry" out, but it does leave behind the soap.

A more complete explanaion can be found in "The Machinerys Handbook."

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney [email hidden]
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

21 Aug 2004 21:04:12 +0100 'Trevor Jeffrey said:

A hub that is being used has air inside no matter how well sealed. The
constant exposure of the oil, from the grease, to the air as the balls wipe
the grease allows a greater surface area exposed. Eventually there will be
a relatively small contact with the grease as it shrinks back due to reduced
oil loading. Lubrication becomes minimal and the grease has little chance
of collecting bearing wear and so the bearing races usually fail through
fatigue with wear particles impacted into the races.

I think you might learn something by reading the section on grease and
lubrication in "The Machinerys Handbook."

The deformation that eventually results in fatigue has nothing to do
with wear particles and occurs even with perfectly clean, oil
lubricated bearings.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney [email hidden]
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

Jim Adney wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

21 Aug 2004 21:04:12 +0100 'Trevor Jeffrey said:

A hub that is being used has air inside no matter how well sealed. The
constant exposure of the oil, from the grease, to the air as the balls

wipe

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the grease allows a greater surface area exposed. Eventually there will

be

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a relatively small contact with the grease as it shrinks back due to

reduced

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

oil loading. Lubrication becomes minimal and the grease has little chance
of collecting bearing wear and so the bearing races usually fail through
fatigue with wear particles impacted into the races.

I think you might learn something by reading the section on grease and
lubrication in "The Machinerys Handbook."

The deformation that eventually results in fatigue has nothing to do
with wear particles and occurs even with perfectly clean, oil
lubricated bearings.

Localised fatigue spots do occur prematurely when there is wear particle
build up within a rolling bearing. I am well aware of rolling bearing
deformation due to load and how this causes fatigue. Balls wear ovoid with
sufficient use, due to wear loss, the debris is deposited upon the race
unless it is otherwise washed away or collected by the grease. Most
bearings fail prematurely within a bicycle due to the contamination of the
bearing races. The soap acts as a reservoir for both the oil and wear
particles.

Trevor

"Trevor Jeffrey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Localised fatigue spots do occur prematurely when there is wear particle
build up within a rolling bearing. I am well aware of rolling bearing
deformation due to load and how this causes fatigue. Balls wear ovoid

with

Quoted message said:

sufficient use, due to wear loss, the debris is deposited upon the race
unless it is otherwise washed away or collected by the grease. Most
bearings fail prematurely within a bicycle due to the contamination of the
bearing races. The soap acts as a reservoir for both the oil and wear
particles.

Trevor

Wasn't that the reason for the oil holes on the older Campagnolo Record
hubs, to replenish the oil? I'll have to say it is a bit messy when the
oil gets forced out of the side holes on the hub as the wheel rotates, but
for me, the oil prolongs the life of the balls and race. By giving a shot of
30w motor oil in the center fill slot every two weeks, it replenishes the
old oil with the new. A quart of 30w has lasted 4+ years. It's been 5
years since I changed the balls, and only inspected the hubs and adjusted
the bearings twice since then after riding 4k-5k a year. Each time I inspect
the race and balls, they look fine.
-tom

Tom Nakashima wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

"Trevor Jeffrey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Localised fatigue spots do occur prematurely when there is wear particle
build up within a rolling bearing. I am well aware of rolling bearing
deformation due to load and how this causes fatigue. Balls wear ovoid

with

Quoted message said:

sufficient use, due to wear loss, the debris is deposited upon the race
unless it is otherwise washed away or collected by the grease. Most
bearings fail prematurely within a bicycle due to the contamination of

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bearing races. The soap acts as a reservoir for both the oil and wear
particles.

Trevor

Wasn't that the reason for the oil holes on the older Campagnolo Record
hubs, to replenish the oil? I'll have to say it is a bit messy when the
oil gets forced out of the side holes on the hub as the wheel rotates, but
for me, the oil prolongs the life of the balls and race. By giving a shot

of

Quoted message said:

30w motor oil in the center fill slot every two weeks, it replenishes the
old oil with the new. A quart of 30w has lasted 4+ years. It's been 5
years since I changed the balls, and only inspected the hubs and adjusted
the bearings twice since then after riding 4k-5k a year. Each time I

inspect

Quoted message said:

the race and balls, they look fine.
-tom

Therefore each time you are giving them a squirt, you're flushing the debris
out. The use of grease with the routine drop of oil will not be so messy.

Trevor

"Trevor Jeffrey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Nakashima wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

"Trevor Jeffrey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Localised fatigue spots do occur prematurely when there is wear

particle

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

build up within a rolling bearing. I am well aware of rolling bearing
deformation due to load and how this causes fatigue. Balls wear ovoid

with

Quoted message said:

sufficient use, due to wear loss, the debris is deposited upon the race
unless it is otherwise washed away or collected by the grease. Most
bearings fail prematurely within a bicycle due to the contamination of

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bearing races. The soap acts as a reservoir for both the oil and wear
particles.

Trevor

Wasn't that the reason for the oil holes on the older Campagnolo Record
hubs, to replenish the oil? I'll have to say it is a bit messy when the
oil gets forced out of the side holes on the hub as the wheel rotates,

but

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for me, the oil prolongs the life of the balls and race. By giving a shot

of

Quoted message said:

30w motor oil in the center fill slot every two weeks, it replenishes the
old oil with the new. A quart of 30w has lasted 4+ years. It's been 5
years since I changed the balls, and only inspected the hubs and adjusted
the bearings twice since then after riding 4k-5k a year. Each time I

inspect

Quoted message said:

the race and balls, they look fine.
-tom

Therefore each time you are giving them a squirt, you're flushing the

debris

Quoted message said:

out. The use of grease with the routine drop of oil will not be so messy.

Trevor

With grease, it retain most of the debris in the hub, while using just oil,
it flushes most of the debris out of the hub.
A good example, is to take apart a "grease only" Campagnolo Record hub after
riding 1k-2k mi. or so, and try to clean out all the grease. It's a lot of
work, trying to do so, you will also find fine bits of debris. Cleaning the
30w motor oil out of a Campagnolo Record hub is easier with hardly any
debris.
-tom

Tom Nakashima wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

With grease, it retain most of the debris in the hub, while using just oil,
it flushes most of the debris out of the hub.
A good example, is to take apart a "grease only" Campagnolo Record hub

after

Quoted message said:

riding 1k-2k mi. or so, and try to clean out all the grease. It's a lot of
work, trying to do so, you will also find fine bits of debris. Cleaning

the

Quoted message said:

30w motor oil out of a Campagnolo Record hub is easier with hardly any
debris.

I'm still not convinced about Campag's instructions to grease. I grease a
frying pan with oil. Campag's use of the word I expect is similar.

Trevor