Dawes/CB

I don't know if they're the same company, but I have been told the Dawes
and Saracen touring frames are built in the same factory.

--
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Remove the bars to contact me

Frames come from Taiwan I believe

SW

"Chris Davies" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I don't know if they're the same company, but I have been told the Dawes
and Saracen touring frames are built in the same factory.

--
|C|H|R|I|S|@|T|R|I|N|I|T|Y|W|I|L|L|S|.|C|O|M|
Remove the bars to contact me

Renegade said:

Is it true that Dawes are now made by Claud Butler? If so is there any
noticeable difference in quality? Real pity if so as Dawes always were a
good example of why to buy British!!

Hmmmmm, define "British". Most "British" bikes are built from largely
foreign manufactured frames and components. Some with foreign frames
are assembled here, some aren't. As with other things, foreign builds
can involve spending money on doing it well, or spending little on doing
it badly.

Often where one group owns different marques it is because they are
noticeably different in quality and/or target market. Not always, and I
don't know about associations between Dawes and CB, but if it is all
part of the same group that doesn't really mean much. I don't think we
can draw much inference from the finishing quality of a basic 1 litre
Ford Fiesta about a top of the line Volvo V70 or an Aston Martin DB9,
though I think ultimately it's all the same company.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't know if they're the same company, but I have been told the Dawes
and Saracen touring frames are built in the same factory.

Falcon bicycles and claude butler are made in lincolnshire

http://www.falconcycles.co.uk/page.php?p.id=1

I have a modern CB hybrid.
They are value for money no nonsense bikes with mass produced
frames.In my experience they work.Mine is my workaday and tourer and
is slowly getting better as bits get upgraded.The gears and bearings
seem to be fine. My boys seem to like theirs.
Of course you can pay more and get better.Tyres would be my first
change.

TerryJ

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Renegade said:

Is it true that Dawes are now made by Claud Butler? If so is there any
noticeable difference in quality? Real pity if so as Dawes always were

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

good example of why to buy British!!

Hmmmmm, define "British". Most "British" bikes are built from largely
foreign manufactured frames and components. Some with foreign frames
are assembled here, some aren't. As with other things, foreign builds
can involve spending money on doing it well, or spending little on doing
it badly.

Often where one group owns different marques it is because they are
noticeably different in quality and/or target market. Not always, and I
don't know about associations between Dawes and CB, but if it is all
part of the same group that doesn't really mean much. I don't think we
can draw much inference from the finishing quality of a basic 1 litre
Ford Fiesta about a top of the line Volvo V70 or an Aston Martin DB9,
though I think ultimately it's all the same company.

Very true but what I was really getting at was that, if 'Dawes' are not
Dawes (if you know what I mean) anymore, then have their bikes suffered as a
result of change of ownership? You know what it's like - acquisition made,
look for opportunity to reduce cost, outsource production to an inferior
supplier, corners cut and hey presto you get a bike that looks the same but
is markedly different to what you had come to expect from a Company with
that kind of reputation.

I am not levelling those particular criticisms at Dawes, moreover asking the
question as to whether they do indeed apply and the only way to get them
answered is to speak to people who have bought/ridden them. I had one about
5 years ago which was absolutely great I have to say and am still deciding
which bike to buy and high on my list is the Discovery 601 - as long as it's
as good as it appears.

Renegade said:

Very true but what I was really getting at was that, if 'Dawes' are not
Dawes (if you know what I mean) anymore, then have their bikes suffered as a
result of change of ownership?

AFAICT no. They still make benchmark tourers and their other bikes have
a solid reputation for good engineering ahead of fashionable tucks and
frills. c.f. Ridgeback for a similar approach.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Renegade said:

Very true but what I was really getting at was that, if 'Dawes' are not
Dawes (if you know what I mean) anymore, then have their bikes suffered as a
result of change of ownership?

AFAICT no. They still make benchmark tourers and their other bikes have
a solid reputation for good engineering ahead of fashionable tucks and
frills.

Not surprising, really - the Galaxy and Super Galaxy have a big
following and a strong reputation to uphold; Dawes must've quickly
realised that any compromises or drastic changes to the products would
be bad for business and customer loyalty.

David E. Belcher

I own a 2002 model galaxy and can't help but notice that the chainstays
aren't 531ST tubing (the diameter is too great - they look like cro-moly).
In addition, a mate of mine owns a 94 model and the famous Reynolds motif is
present on the main frame and the forks. Mine doesn't feature a Reynolds
mofit on the forks (although it looks like 531 to be fair), which in light
of the chainstay, makes me suspicious. I'm not saying they're reducing
quality drastically - it's still a superb tourer and everyday bike - but
they do seem to be cutting the odd corner here and there. That said, the
paint job and gears on mine are far better than his...

"David E. Belcher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter Clinch <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Renegade said:

Very true but what I was really getting at was that, if 'Dawes' are

not

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Dawes (if you know what I mean) anymore, then have their bikes

suffered as a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

result of change of ownership?

AFAICT no. They still make benchmark tourers and their other bikes have
a solid reputation for good engineering ahead of fashionable tucks and
frills.

Not surprising, really - the Galaxy and Super Galaxy have a big
following and a strong reputation to uphold; Dawes must've quickly
realised that any compromises or drastic changes to the products would
be bad for business and customer loyalty.

David E. Belcher

Fil said:

I own a 2002 model galaxy and can't help but notice that the chainstays
aren't 531ST tubing (the diameter is too great - they look like cro-moly).
In addition, a mate of mine owns a 94 model and the famous Reynolds motif is
present on the main frame and the forks. Mine doesn't feature a Reynolds
mofit on the forks (although it looks like 531 to be fair), which in light
of the chainstay, makes me suspicious.

Go to your local spectroscopist and ask them what the manganese component of
the metal is.

CrMo is not neccessarily bad, after all the columbis tubing is CrMo.
Reynolds tubing (531 and up) is MnMo which has different properties. The
different grades of Reynolds tubing (531, 653, 753, 853) are broadly the
same but with different heat treatments giving different characteristics.
Some of these heat treatments can be damaged by excessive heat (eg 753)
hence the requirement to silver solder rather than braze or weld)

The ST and c (as in 531c 531ST) do not relate to the overall diameter of the
tubes but to the wall thicknesses. 531c is thinner walled than 531 standard
which is thinner again than ST, optimised for longevity and strength.

There is no reason why your chainstays should not be a wider gauge 531. I'd
check the specs for the bike. If the frame says 531ST then it should be that
throughout. My frame (on the road bike) is badged 653 (as are the forks) but
the frame is actually 753 rear triangle, 653 main tubes and 531c forks to
give the best characteristics at each point.

...d

(Terry) said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't know if they're the same company, but I have been told the Dawes
and Saracen touring frames are built in the same factory.

Falcon bicycles and claude butler are made in lincolnshire

http://www.falconcycles.co.uk/page.php?p.id=1

I have a modern CB hybrid.
They are value for money no nonsense bikes with mass produced
frames.In my experience they work.Mine is my workaday and tourer and
is slowly getting better as bits get upgraded.The gears and bearings
seem to be fine. My boys seem to like theirs.
Of course you can pay more and get better.Tyres would be my first
change.

TerryJ

I don't know the full product range of Falcon but I do know it resells
basic chinese manufactured dual suspension bikes as Optima and these
are the same grade of bikes as sold by universal with possibly a
slight upgrade in components although this depends on model. They are
much more expensive too than the universal bikes. It seems that
aluminium frames for appropriate models are all sourced from taiwan
but the hi-tensile steel frames are made in china. These low cost
dual suspension bikes seem to get heavily criticised in these forums
and as the Falcon/Optima examples are also considerably dearer than
the sterling house/universal similar models they would seem to be poor
value.

Here's an example;

http://www.falconcycles.co.uk/product.php?c.id=7&s.id=1&p.id=378

and a similar near identical model at sterling house;

http://www.sterlinghouse.co.uk/Default.asp?Action=ViewProduct&ID=7113

David Martin <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

CrMo is not neccessarily bad, after all the columbis tubing is CrMo.

Indeed - Columbus SLX New is Cr-Mo, and is a very good tubeset indeed.

Quoted message said:

My frame (on the road bike) is badged 653 (as are the forks) but
the frame is actually 753 rear triangle, 653 main tubes and 531c forks to
give the best characteristics at each point.

Not sure if 653 was ever actually a grade of Reynolds tube as such - I
think it was, as with your frame, a mixed set of 531c and 753,
intended to give better performance than 531c, but at a lower
price/spec than 753.
Certainly, in all Orbit/Sirius publicity material, Frank Clements
always pointed out that their 653 frames had 753 chain & seat stays.

David E. Belcher

in message <[email hidden]>, Martin Wilson

(') said:

I don't know the full product range of Falcon but I do know it resells
basic chinese manufactured dual suspension bikes as Optima and these
are the same grade of bikes as sold by universal with possibly a
slight upgrade in components although this depends on model. They are
much more expensive too than the universal bikes. It seems that
aluminium frames for appropriate models are all sourced from taiwan
but the hi-tensile steel frames are made in china. These low cost
dual suspension bikes seem to get heavily criticised in these forums
and as the Falcon/Optima examples are also considerably dearer than
the sterling house/universal similar models they would seem to be poor
value.

Here's an example;

http://www.falconcycles.co.uk/product.php?c.id=7&s.id=1&p.id=378

and a similar near identical model at sterling house;

http://www.sterlinghouse.co.uk/Default.asp?Action=ViewProduct&ID=7113

Who was it said that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery?
<URL:http://www.mtbreview.com/reviews/2002_Full_Suspension/product_85034.shtml>

But seriously, yes. I'm familiar with *exactly* the bike you're talking
about; I've also seen it badged Apollo, Halfords own brand. It's pretty
much the worst of the worst, but it clearly sells extremely well.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Iraq war: it's time for regime change...
... go now, Tony, while you can still go with dignity.
[update 18 months after this .sig was written: it's still relevant]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have a modern CB hybrid.
They are value for money no nonsense bikes with mass produced
frames.In my experience they work.Mine is my workaday and tourer and
is slowly getting better as bits get upgraded.The gears and bearings
seem to be fine. My boys seem to like theirs.
Of course you can pay more and get better.Tyres would be my first
change.

TerryJ

I don'
but the hi-tensile steel frames are made in china. These low cost
dual suspension bikes seem to get heavily criticised in these forums
and as the Falcon/Optima examples are also considerably dearer than
the sterling house/universal similar models they would seem to be poor
value.

I read such comments with interest.
It depends exactly which bike and just what you want to do with it.
my CB(225gbp new) has done thousands of miles , much of which were on
tour, and initially my only complaint was that it had a gunbarrel for
a handlebar.

My boys have insisted on having mtb's like their mates' and one of
them cost 120gbp with no susp and is not a bad ride at all.If I get
permission to put an old pair of hemispheres on it it will be a very
functional road and trail bike.

We went on the trails and field roads for 12 miles each way yesterday,
met the rest for lunch in the middle and it could not really have been
a better day.

I will update the group if they disintegrate as predicted, but it is
not likely in my opinion and experience.

I do not like rear suspension and very lumpy tyres on the whole, but I
have said for a long time now that I have never had a bike I didn't
like.They all do something well, even if they are so cheap they are
disposable.

TerryJ

"Fil" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I own a 2002 model galaxy and can't help but notice that the chainstays
aren't 531ST tubing (the diameter is too great - they look like cro-moly).
In addition, a mate of mine owns a 94 model and the famous Reynolds motif is
present on the main frame and the forks. Mine doesn't feature a Reynolds
mofit on the forks (although it looks like 531 to be fair), which in light
of the chainstay, makes me suspicious.

If you can identify steel simply by looking at it, you will get a great welcome
over in rec.knives.
--
"A kilt opens up new possibilities."
- Gary D. Schwartz in rec.backcountry