Oh my aching back

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 13:28:09 GMT, "Grumpy" <[email hidden]> wrote
something completely inane:

Quoted message said:

Hoping to get some spirited feedback. Sorry, I get long here.

Background: I'm a 45 yr old male, diabetic, 6'-1", 255 lbs.

I've been off work (not workman's comp) since January 15th, when I decided
to pursue what had been causing numbness in the left leg down to the foot,
and pain in my right hip.

An August '03 MRI revealed two disc herniations, L4-L5, L5-S1 which I've
learned is very common.

The doctor (surgeon #1) ordered me to remain off work, prescribed medication
and Physical Therapy at what I'll call PT #1.

After 4 weeks of therapy (3x/week) at PT #1 I reported back that there was
no improvement his next plan was to administer an epidural (without xray).
That was performed, a new MRI was performed, followed by more PT (3 x/week).
After still no improvement he recommended the microdisectomy.

I decided to seek another opinion. Surgeon #2 said I needed "better"
physical therapy and sent me to PT #2. PT#2 was much more aggressive than
PT#1. Surgeon #2 also said I needed an epidural but with the assistance of
xray to ensure the steroid flows where it was needed.

I pushed thru PT, had a 3rd epidural and started to see improvement. In
June the doctor upgraded my therapy to work conditioning and I was attending
PT#2 5 days per week, 4 1/2 to 5 hours per day.

About June 15th I drove to Twin Cities Spine Center in Minneapolis for a
consultation I had arranged in April. The doctors there were wonderful, I
wish this place wasn't so far from Chicago. The doctors there said their
threshold for surgery is that the patient must be in 1 year of unrelenting
pain. The doctors said that my herniation was not severe enough to warrant
surgery and encouraged me to continue with physical therapy. BTW-the drive
to Minnesota caused me no discomfort whatsoever. I felt great.

Things were going great until the morning of July 18th. I woke up with a
tremendous amount of pain in the left calf. Not much pain in the back, but
it felt as if someone gave me 6 good kicks in the calf. I could hardly
walk, let alone stand with weight on the leg. That lasted about a week and
a half. I naturally had to back off on the therapy. I reported to the
doctors office on July 21, and new MRI was ordered and performed on July
22nd. My next appt was August 10th meaning I had to sit in agony until
August 10th.

In the interum, my employer contacted me on July 29th, saying I was mandated
to present myself for an Independent Medical Review to a physician of their
choosing on August 2nd. As a result of that review, the physician said I
was fit to go back to work at full duty.(which I'm not)

My return to work began August 9th and was nothing more than filling out
papers obtaining security clearance and performing Fitness for Duty to
obtain unescorted access in a nuclear facility.

I did not clear the Fitness for Duty probably because of the prescribed
FLEXERIL and NORCO I have been taking. So I am sitting at home in limbo.

Last night I met with my surgeon, explained the mess I'm in and his only two
solutions were:

1) Perform a functional capacity test, be declared 5%, 10% whatever
handicapped and live with the pain

2) Consider surgery but before surgery he recommends a diskogram and would
not administer diskogram unless I was serious about surgery (which I'm not)

Wasn't real impressed with surgeon #2 manner last night. He acted as if he
was late for tee time on the golf course. During the appointment I asked if
there was new damage in the July MRI that did not show up in the February
MRI. He said no. Fine. Except that I have had the February MRI in my
possession the whole time and not once did the film leave the envelope last
night. So how did he form his opinion? I'd go back to surgeon #1 but he
abruptly left his practice in May, leaving lots of patients hanging. I met
some of those patients at PT #2.

Oh yes. Since my employer says their doctor (who turns out is an orthopedic
surgeon but does not see patients, makes a living writing evaluations)
states I am fit to go back to work, I will not be granted any more time off
for this injury. Per our Mutual Benefits Association (MBA) rules a patient
may have 15 months. I have no idea why my employer blindsided me with the
Independent Medical Evaluation other than it keeps the bean counters happy.

Sorry for the long post. Now my questions.

1) Anyone been through a similar mess?

2) Are there free websites that allow you to look up and get the goods on
suspect physicians, Illinois in this case?

3) I've heard there is something that provides longer lasting relief than
epidurals. I'm at 3 epidurals thus far, and the insurance limits me to 4
per year.

4) Anyone ever experience the calf pain?

Thanks for reading, looking for answers.

I can respond to question #4 as well as address a couple of issues you
presented in the body of your message. As to the calf pain, yes I
have experienced that, but I do not have back problems that I know of.
Although a MRI of my back does show degenerative Arthritis. Anyhow my
calf pain is like a great big throbbing knot. Hurts like hell for
awhile and then gradually goes a way of over the course of 4/5 days.
Usually starts when I first wake-up. When I complained to my Dr about
it, he gave me something called Foltex which has diminished the
occurrences.

As to the Dr knowing what was on the MRI without reviewing the film;
that is quite possible since there is usually a written report that is
sent to the Dr. He could have just read that.

I am curious as to how your employer's Dr could clear you for the type
of work you do with the restrictions on access and apparently no using
pain killers as well. If you couldn't clear the fitness for duty exam
how can you be fit for duty? Perhaps you are fit enough to return to
work, but apparently no fit enough to return to the type of work you
do. Are they going to assign you to light or restricted duty? That
is usually what is done where I work.

ZombyWoof
--

<Insert something cute here>

"Grumpy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hoping to get some spirited feedback. Sorry, I get long here.

Sorry for the long post. Now my questions.

1) Anyone been through a similar mess?

I'm just beginning my long mess. My MRI says I have four discs bad in my
neck. I can't use my left arm without severe pain. My first neurosurgeon
appointment is Monday.

winnard

"Grumpy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hoping to get some spirited feedback. Sorry, I get long here.

Background: I'm a 45 yr old male, diabetic, 6'-1", 255 lbs.

I've been off work (not workman's comp) since January 15th,

when I decided

Quoted message said:

to pursue what had been causing numbness in the left leg down

to the foot,

Quoted message said:

and pain in my right hip.

An August '03 MRI revealed two disc herniations, L4-L5, L5-S1

which I've

Quoted message said:

learned is very common.

The doctor (surgeon #1) ordered me to remain off work,

prescribed medication

Quoted message said:

and Physical Therapy at what I'll call PT #1.

After 4 weeks of therapy (3x/week) at PT #1 I reported back

that there was

Quoted message said:

no improvement his next plan was to administer an epidural

(without xray).

Quoted message said:

That was performed, a new MRI was performed, followed by more

PT (3 x/week).

Quoted message said:

After still no improvement he recommended the microdisectomy.

I decided to seek another opinion. Surgeon #2 said I needed

"better"

Quoted message said:

physical therapy and sent me to PT #2. PT#2 was much more

aggressive than

Quoted message said:

PT#1. Surgeon #2 also said I needed an epidural but with the

assistance of

Quoted message said:

xray to ensure the steroid flows where it was needed.

I pushed thru PT, had a 3rd epidural and started to see

improvement. In

Quoted message said:

June the doctor upgraded my therapy to work conditioning and I

was attending

Quoted message said:

PT#2 5 days per week, 4 1/2 to 5 hours per day.

About June 15th I drove to Twin Cities Spine Center in

Minneapolis for a

Quoted message said:

consultation I had arranged in April. The doctors there were

wonderful, I

Quoted message said:

wish this place wasn't so far from Chicago. The doctors there

said their

Quoted message said:

threshold for surgery is that the patient must be in 1 year of

unrelenting

Quoted message said:

pain. The doctors said that my herniation was not severe

enough to warrant

Quoted message said:

surgery and encouraged me to continue with physical therapy.

BTW-the drive

Quoted message said:

to Minnesota caused me no discomfort whatsoever. I felt great.

Things were going great until the morning of July 18th. I woke

up with a

Quoted message said:

tremendous amount of pain in the left calf. Not much pain in

the back, but

Quoted message said:

it felt as if someone gave me 6 good kicks in the calf. I

could hardly

Quoted message said:

walk, let alone stand with weight on the leg. That lasted

about a week and

Quoted message said:

a half. I naturally had to back off on the therapy. I

reported to the

Quoted message said:

doctors office on July 21, and new MRI was ordered and

performed on July

Quoted message said:

22nd. My next appt was August 10th meaning I had to sit in

agony until

Quoted message said:

August 10th.

In the interum, my employer contacted me on July 29th, saying I

was mandated

Quoted message said:

to present myself for an Independent Medical Review to a

physician of their

Quoted message said:

choosing on August 2nd. As a result of that review, the

physician said I

Quoted message said:

was fit to go back to work at full duty.(which I'm not)

My return to work began August 9th and was nothing more than

filling out

Quoted message said:

papers obtaining security clearance and performing Fitness for

Duty to

Quoted message said:

obtain unescorted access in a nuclear facility.

I did not clear the Fitness for Duty probably because of the

prescribed

Quoted message said:

FLEXERIL and NORCO I have been taking. So I am sitting at home

in limbo.

Quoted message said:

Last night I met with my surgeon, explained the mess I'm in and

his only two

Quoted message said:

solutions were:

1) Perform a functional capacity test, be declared 5%, 10%

whatever

Quoted message said:

handicapped and live with the pain

2) Consider surgery but before surgery he recommends a

diskogram and would

Quoted message said:

not administer diskogram unless I was serious about surgery

(which I'm not)

Quoted message said:

Wasn't real impressed with surgeon #2 manner last night. He

acted as if he

Quoted message said:

was late for tee time on the golf course. During the

appointment I asked if

Quoted message said:

there was new damage in the July MRI that did not show up in

the February

Quoted message said:

MRI. He said no. Fine. Except that I have had the February

MRI in my

Quoted message said:

possession the whole time and not once did the film leave the

envelope last

Quoted message said:

night. So how did he form his opinion? I'd go back to surgeon

#1 but he

Quoted message said:

abruptly left his practice in May, leaving lots of patients

hanging. I met

Quoted message said:

some of those patients at PT #2.

Oh yes. Since my employer says their doctor (who turns out is

an orthopedic

Quoted message said:

surgeon but does not see patients, makes a living writing

evaluations)

Quoted message said:

states I am fit to go back to work, I will not be granted any

more time off

Quoted message said:

for this injury. Per our Mutual Benefits Association (MBA)

rules a patient

Quoted message said:

may have 15 months. I have no idea why my employer blindsided

me with the

Quoted message said:

Independent Medical Evaluation other than it keeps the bean

counters happy.

Quoted message said:

Sorry for the long post. Now my questions.

1) Anyone been through a similar mess?

2) Are there free websites that allow you to look up and get

the goods on

Quoted message said:

suspect physicians, Illinois in this case?

3) I've heard there is something that provides longer lasting

relief than

Quoted message said:

epidurals. I'm at 3 epidurals thus far, and the insurance

limits me to 4

Quoted message said:

per year.

4) Anyone ever experience the calf pain?

Work backwards. If you are not serious about surgery (which you
should not be), you need to find a physician who can prescribe an
appropraite exercise regimen and manage your pain. You then need
to work with your employer to modify your work-place to the
extent possible to allow you to return to work. If you cannot
return to your regular work, you need to see if there is
available and alternative work with the same employer. If it
looks like you are being set up to be fired, you should talk to
your HR person to express your concerns, and if your concerns are
not addressed, then you should contact your local EEOC/Labor
Commission (whatever the designation may be in your state) to see
if there is an ADA or FMLA issue.

Do not expect surgeons to be hand-holders. That is the job of
the primary care physician. Also most good surgeons these days
are recommending against laminectomies and are favoring less
aggressive treatment unless the clinical symptoms are accute and
disabling. That is probably why the surgeon did not pull the MRI
out of the envelope. he read the report, and your clinical
picture probably was not compelling. -- Jay Beattie.

I had a herniated L4-L5 25 years ago. The onset of pain was gradual,
starting in the hip and eventually spreading down the back of the leg. I
endured over two years of conservative therapy including chiropractic,
physio, epidurals, etc. and finally underwent a microsurgical procedure
which was fairly new at the time. I had got to the point where I could not
really walk properly and decided that the surgery would be worth the risks.
I have been pain free ever since except for those times I make the mistake
of lifting things I shouldn't and then I feel a mild version of the old pain
for a couple of days. I am able to do centuries with no ill effects on my
back. Unfortunately, not all surgery is successful. The worst part of my
ordeal was the aftermath of the pre-op myelogram which gave me excruciating
headaches anytime I was off my back for more than 10 minutes. That
diagnostic test (X-Ray after radiopaque dye is injected into the spinal
column) used to be the gold standard but less invasive scans may be the norm
now. The surgery itself was a piece of cake although it took weeks to get
back to normal activities and several months for residual pain to be
completely gone. Based on my experience, I would advise you not to rule out
surgery entirely. If you consider surgery, get it done by a surgeon who does
nothing else but disc surgery. Mine was a neurosurgeon but orthopedic guys
also do it competently. More recently, I had a problem with pain and
numbness in my arm due to bone spurs in my neck. After about 5-6 months of
conservative treatment, the symptoms subsided and have not recurred. My
point is that it can take many months for conservative therapy to work but
if after a year or so, you are not seeing improvement, then you may have to
decide between living with the problem and biting the surgery bullet.

Grumpy said:

Hoping to get some spirited feedback. Sorry, I get long here.

Background: I'm a 45 yr old male, diabetic, 6'-1", 255 lbs.

I've been off work (not workman's comp) since January 15th, when I decided
to pursue what had been causing numbness in the left leg down to the foot,
and pain in my right hip.

An August '03 MRI revealed two disc herniations, L4-L5, L5-S1 which I've
learned is very common.

The doctor (surgeon #1) ordered me to remain off work, prescribed medication
and Physical Therapy at what I'll call PT #1.

After 4 weeks of therapy (3x/week) at PT #1 I reported back that there was
no improvement his next plan was to administer an epidural (without xray).
That was performed, a new MRI was performed, followed by more PT (3 x/week).
After still no improvement he recommended the microdisectomy.

I decided to seek another opinion. Surgeon #2 said I needed "better"
physical therapy and sent me to PT #2. PT#2 was much more aggressive than
PT#1. Surgeon #2 also said I needed an epidural but with the assistance of
xray to ensure the steroid flows where it was needed.

I pushed thru PT, had a 3rd epidural and started to see improvement. In
June the doctor upgraded my therapy to work conditioning and I was attending
PT#2 5 days per week, 4 1/2 to 5 hours per day.

About June 15th I drove to Twin Cities Spine Center in Minneapolis for a
consultation I had arranged in April. The doctors there were wonderful, I
wish this place wasn't so far from Chicago. The doctors there said their
threshold for surgery is that the patient must be in 1 year of unrelenting
pain. The doctors said that my herniation was not severe enough to warrant
surgery and encouraged me to continue with physical therapy. BTW-the drive
to Minnesota caused me no discomfort whatsoever. I felt great.

Things were going great until the morning of July 18th. I woke up with a
tremendous amount of pain in the left calf. Not much pain in the back, but
it felt as if someone gave me 6 good kicks in the calf. I could hardly
walk, let alone stand with weight on the leg. That lasted about a week and
a half. I naturally had to back off on the therapy. I reported to the
doctors office on July 21, and new MRI was ordered and performed on July
22nd. My next appt was August 10th meaning I had to sit in agony until
August 10th.

In the interum, my employer contacted me on July 29th, saying I was mandated
to present myself for an Independent Medical Review to a physician of their
choosing on August 2nd. As a result of that review, the physician said I
was fit to go back to work at full duty.(which I'm not)

My return to work began August 9th and was nothing more than filling out
papers obtaining security clearance and performing Fitness for Duty to
obtain unescorted access in a nuclear facility.

I did not clear the Fitness for Duty probably because of the prescribed
FLEXERIL and NORCO I have been taking. So I am sitting at home in limbo.

Last night I met with my surgeon, explained the mess I'm in and his only two
solutions were:

1) Perform a functional capacity test, be declared 5%, 10% whatever
handicapped and live with the pain

2) Consider surgery but before surgery he recommends a diskogram and would
not administer diskogram unless I was serious about surgery (which I'm not)

Wasn't real impressed with surgeon #2 manner last night. He acted as if he
was late for tee time on the golf course. During the appointment I asked if
there was new damage in the July MRI that did not show up in the February
MRI. He said no. Fine. Except that I have had the February MRI in my
possession the whole time and not once did the film leave the envelope last
night. So how did he form his opinion? I'd go back to surgeon #1 but he
abruptly left his practice in May, leaving lots of patients hanging. I met
some of those patients at PT #2.

Oh yes. Since my employer says their doctor (who turns out is an orthopedic
surgeon but does not see patients, makes a living writing evaluations)
states I am fit to go back to work, I will not be granted any more time off
for this injury. Per our Mutual Benefits Association (MBA) rules a patient
may have 15 months. I have no idea why my employer blindsided me with the
Independent Medical Evaluation other than it keeps the bean counters happy.

Sorry for the long post. Now my questions.

1) Anyone been through a similar mess?

2) Are there free websites that allow you to look up and get the goods on
suspect physicians, Illinois in this case?

3) I've heard there is something that provides longer lasting relief than
epidurals. I'm at 3 epidurals thus far, and the insurance limits me to 4
per year.

4) Anyone ever experience the calf pain?

Thanks for reading, looking for answers.

If you question whether surgeon #2 saw the MRI you should ask him. Remember,
the way MRI, and CT scans work one can print as many copies as desired.
Also, unless someone made a mistake, the MRI you possess would not be the
only extant copy. The point is that it is possible that surgeon #2 did see
the MRI.

You mention that you are 6-1 255 lbs, that is a BMI of 33.6, pretty
darn fat. Have any of your surgeons mentioned this to you?

You mention you are diabetic. Are you type 1 or type 2? Based on your
obesity, I would guess type 2.

Have you been working on your obesity at all?

"Grumpy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hoping to get some spirited feedback. Sorry, I get long here.

Background: I'm a 45 yr old male, diabetic, 6'-1", 255 lbs.

I've been off work (not workman's comp) since January 15th, when I decided
to pursue what had been causing numbness in the left leg down to the foot,
and pain in my right hip.

An August '03 MRI revealed two disc herniations, L4-L5, L5-S1 which I've
learned is very common.

The doctor (surgeon #1) ordered me to remain off work, prescribed medication
and Physical Therapy at what I'll call PT #1.

After 4 weeks of therapy (3x/week) at PT #1 I reported back that there was
no improvement his next plan was to administer an epidural (without xray).
That was performed, a new MRI was performed, followed by more PT (3 x/week).
After still no improvement he recommended the microdisectomy.

I decided to seek another opinion. Surgeon #2 said I needed "better"
physical therapy and sent me to PT #2. PT#2 was much more aggressive than
PT#1. Surgeon #2 also said I needed an epidural but with the assistance of
xray to ensure the steroid flows where it was needed.

I pushed thru PT, had a 3rd epidural and started to see improvement. In
June the doctor upgraded my therapy to work conditioning and I was attending
PT#2 5 days per week, 4 1/2 to 5 hours per day.

About June 15th I drove to Twin Cities Spine Center in Minneapolis for a
consultation I had arranged in April. The doctors there were wonderful, I
wish this place wasn't so far from Chicago. The doctors there said their
threshold for surgery is that the patient must be in 1 year of unrelenting
pain. The doctors said that my herniation was not severe enough to warrant
surgery and encouraged me to continue with physical therapy. BTW-the drive
to Minnesota caused me no discomfort whatsoever. I felt great.

Things were going great until the morning of July 18th. I woke up with a
tremendous amount of pain in the left calf. Not much pain in the back, but
it felt as if someone gave me 6 good kicks in the calf. I could hardly
walk, let alone stand with weight on the leg. That lasted about a week and
a half. I naturally had to back off on the therapy. I reported to the
doctors office on July 21, and new MRI was ordered and performed on July
22nd. My next appt was August 10th meaning I had to sit in agony until
August 10th.

In the interum, my employer contacted me on July 29th, saying I was mandated
to present myself for an Independent Medical Review to a physician of their
choosing on August 2nd. As a result of that review, the physician said I
was fit to go back to work at full duty.(which I'm not)

My return to work began August 9th and was nothing more than filling out
papers obtaining security clearance and performing Fitness for Duty to
obtain unescorted access in a nuclear facility.

I did not clear the Fitness for Duty probably because of the prescribed
FLEXERIL and NORCO I have been taking. So I am sitting at home in limbo.

Last night I met with my surgeon, explained the mess I'm in and his only two
solutions were:

1) Perform a functional capacity test, be declared 5%, 10% whatever
handicapped and live with the pain

2) Consider surgery but before surgery he recommends a diskogram and would
not administer diskogram unless I was serious about surgery (which I'm not)

Wasn't real impressed with surgeon #2 manner last night. He acted as if he
was late for tee time on the golf course. During the appointment I asked if
there was new damage in the July MRI that did not show up in the February
MRI. He said no. Fine. Except that I have had the February MRI in my
possession the whole time and not once did the film leave the envelope last
night. So how did he form his opinion? I'd go back to surgeon #1 but he
abruptly left his practice in May, leaving lots of patients hanging. I met
some of those patients at PT #2.

Oh yes. Since my employer says their doctor (who turns out is an orthopedic
surgeon but does not see patients, makes a living writing evaluations)
states I am fit to go back to work, I will not be granted any more time off
for this injury. Per our Mutual Benefits Association (MBA) rules a patient
may have 15 months. I have no idea why my employer blindsided me with the
Independent Medical Evaluation other than it keeps the bean counters happy.

Sorry for the long post. Now my questions.

1) Anyone been through a similar mess?

2) Are there free websites that allow you to look up and get the goods on
suspect physicians, Illinois in this case?

3) I've heard there is something that provides longer lasting relief than
epidurals. I'm at 3 epidurals thus far, and the insurance limits me to 4
per year.

4) Anyone ever experience the calf pain?

Thanks for reading, looking for answers.

Grumpy,

I can say fortunately for myself that I have not been thru the mess
you have with doctors, work and what not. I have had sciatic pain due
to a herniated disc, degenerative disc disease for four years now. Two
years ago (sept) I was signed off work by my chiropractor (i work in a
factory) . I did physical therapy for two months with no improvement
at all, so on her advice discontinued going. I do still see my
chiropractor once or twice a week.
Luckily I have excellent insurance with work and they have never
questioned me being off , as long as I follow doctors orders. I also
have very co-operative docotors who dont mind filling out reports for
the insurance company when they request them.

I have had seven epidurals (steriod) and I found they helped
tremendously, so much so , that the first time I actually cried from
relief. I have tried numerous anti-inflammitories and pain killers.
I am now taking dialuadid, once or twice a day. Although I HATE the
way they make me feel, they are the only thing that eased the pain. I
even cancelled my last epidural (june) because they helped so much.

I experience the pain in my lower back, right hip, right calf, and my
foot. It has been a long a painful journey , but soon to come to an
end for me (I hope). I am having a disectomy (L5-S1) on September
21st. After living with this pain now for four years, getting
progressively worse, I feel I only have two options,,,live on
narcotics for the rest of my life,,or have it surgically repaired. I
am only 35 years old with two young children, and I do not want to
live the rest of my life popping pills. So I am opting for the
surgery.

I dont know if this will help at all.....and I know its kinda long
winded : )...but good luck with whatever decsion you make!

tc,
Marianne 🙂

Unfortunately, the U.S. Medical profession is not very good at all in
dealing with chronic back pain.

Most chronic back pain originates in chronically weak or strained ligaments
in the back. Specifically, the ligaments of the sacro-illiac joints and the
inter-vertebral facet joints. Disk herniations can be present without being
the cause of pain. They ought to be viewed as evidence of mechanical
problems in the back, more than the source of pain. Sometimes disk
herniations do indeed compromise a nerve, and this can be very serious, but
it appears that this is not happening with you, or the doctors would have
operated aleady.

I can recommend the services of Dr. Milne Ongley, whom I consider to be the
world's expert on non-surgical orthopedic medicine. Dr. Ongley is one of
the pioneers of reconstructive ligament therapy, which some call
"prolotherapy". What this involves is the injection of a "proliferant"
solution into the ligaments being treated. The proliferant causes
inflammation in the ligament. Your body responds by strengthening the
ligament. The healing process takes about 6 weeks. In the meantime, the
patient does exercises (for low back pain, 50 toe touches, three times a
day) to put a bit of stress on the ligaments. This causes the new tissue
that forms on the ligament to grow like real ligament tissue and not scar
tissue.

This is not an FDA-approved procedure, but it does have good scientific
proof. At http://ongleyonline.com/lancetstudy.html you can find the text of
an article published in "The Lancet", July 18, 1987, pp 143-146, title "A
new approach to the treatment of chronic low back pain", authors Milne J.
Ongley, Robert G. Klein, Thomas J. Dorman, Bjorn C. Eek, and Lawrence J.
Hubert. I will mention in passing that Drs. Klein, Dorman, and Eek were
involved as skeptical, but curious participants and Hubert was the
statistician.

Bottom line: in the experimental group, 88% reported reductions in
disability scores of 50% or more, 6 months after treatment ended. I know of
no other treatment for chronic low back pain that has been scientifically
tested and which has produced such good results.

I have had this treatment (1999), and it worked for me. I used to have
numb-like feelings down the backs of my legs, and these weird feelings have
disappeared. I recently rode the MS-150 from Houston to Austin, and I would
not have dreamed of doing so if I had not had Dr. Ongley's treatment.

Read the Lancet article! Visit Dr. Ongley's web site at
http://ongleyonline.com.

Before I saw Dr. Ongley, one of his former patients told me, "It's about
getting your life back!" I agree completely.

Best wishes,
David Wagner

"Grumpy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hoping to get some spirited feedback. Sorry, I get long here.

Background: I'm a 45 yr old male, diabetic, 6'-1", 255 lbs.

I've been off work (not workman's comp) since January 15th, when I decided
to pursue what had been causing numbness in the left leg down to the foot,
and pain in my right hip.

An August '03 MRI revealed two disc herniations, L4-L5, L5-S1 which I've
learned is very common.

The doctor (surgeon #1) ordered me to remain off work, prescribed medication
and Physical Therapy at what I'll call PT #1.

After 4 weeks of therapy (3x/week) at PT #1 I reported back that there was
no improvement his next plan was to administer an epidural (without xray).
That was performed, a new MRI was performed, followed by more PT (3 x/week).
After still no improvement he recommended the microdisectomy.

I decided to seek another opinion. Surgeon #2 said I needed "better"
physical therapy and sent me to PT #2. PT#2 was much more aggressive than
PT#1. Surgeon #2 also said I needed an epidural but with the assistance of
xray to ensure the steroid flows where it was needed.

I pushed thru PT, had a 3rd epidural and started to see improvement. In
June the doctor upgraded my therapy to work conditioning and I was attending
PT#2 5 days per week, 4 1/2 to 5 hours per day.

About June 15th I drove to Twin Cities Spine Center in Minneapolis for a
consultation I had arranged in April. The doctors there were wonderful, I
wish this place wasn't so far from Chicago. The doctors there said their
threshold for surgery is that the patient must be in 1 year of unrelenting
pain. The doctors said that my herniation was not severe enough to warrant
surgery and encouraged me to continue with physical therapy. BTW-the drive
to Minnesota caused me no discomfort whatsoever. I felt great.

Things were going great until the morning of July 18th. I woke up with a
tremendous amount of pain in the left calf. Not much pain in the back, but
it felt as if someone gave me 6 good kicks in the calf. I could hardly
walk, let alone stand with weight on the leg. That lasted about a week and
a half. I naturally had to back off on the therapy. I reported to the
doctors office on July 21, and new MRI was ordered and performed on July
22nd. My next appt was August 10th meaning I had to sit in agony until
August 10th.

In the interum, my employer contacted me on July 29th, saying I was mandated
to present myself for an Independent Medical Review to a physician of their
choosing on August 2nd. As a result of that review, the physician said I
was fit to go back to work at full duty.(which I'm not)

My return to work began August 9th and was nothing more than filling out
papers obtaining security clearance and performing Fitness for Duty to
obtain unescorted access in a nuclear facility.

I did not clear the Fitness for Duty probably because of the prescribed
FLEXERIL and NORCO I have been taking. So I am sitting at home in limbo.

Last night I met with my surgeon, explained the mess I'm in and his only two
solutions were:

1) Perform a functional capacity test, be declared 5%, 10% whatever
handicapped and live with the pain

2) Consider surgery but before surgery he recommends a diskogram and would
not administer diskogram unless I was serious about surgery (which I'm not)

Wasn't real impressed with surgeon #2 manner last night. He acted as if he
was late for tee time on the golf course. During the appointment I asked if
there was new damage in the July MRI that did not show up in the February
MRI. He said no. Fine. Except that I have had the February MRI in my
possession the whole time and not once did the film leave the envelope last
night. So how did he form his opinion? I'd go back to surgeon #1 but he
abruptly left his practice in May, leaving lots of patients hanging. I met
some of those patients at PT #2.

Oh yes. Since my employer says their doctor (who turns out is an orthopedic
surgeon but does not see patients, makes a living writing evaluations)
states I am fit to go back to work, I will not be granted any more time off
for this injury. Per our Mutual Benefits Association (MBA) rules a patient
may have 15 months. I have no idea why my employer blindsided me with the
Independent Medical Evaluation other than it keeps the bean counters happy.

Sorry for the long post. Now my questions.

1) Anyone been through a similar mess?

2) Are there free websites that allow you to look up and get the goods on
suspect physicians, Illinois in this case?

3) I've heard there is something that provides longer lasting relief than
epidurals. I'm at 3 epidurals thus far, and the insurance limits me to 4
per year.

4) Anyone ever experience the calf pain?

Thanks for reading, looking for answers.

Hey Grumpy...

Had something silimiar (L4-L5) a few years ago too. The combo of bills
& pills, loss of work, and selfworth truly sucked. I won't even go
into the PT (cuz you know what I'm thinking).

First, find an attorney that can stop the bills, help with your job
and give you some piece of mind...(sound scary a? it's not...)

Second, find out the truth about the epidural steriod injections... I
believe that they are only effective up two a couple shots a year. My
first one worked, but only was a temp fix...And YES floriscopy (live,
active-viewing X-ray) is the way to go, period. If they try something
else, it's like throwing a dart and hoping for the bullseye (and
you've wasted a possible relief scenerio).

Get a neuro consult. If you don't, ya might me missing an easy(er)
fix.

Ask your doc(s)about TENS thearpy or other stimulas control devices..
When your muscles are relaxed, PT works more efficiently...

Last resort for me (after a year of pain, pill and PT), I opted for
the knife. Leg's not numb, no more back pain, and I have a new job and
look on life.

So I would recommend going with the with the discotomy like I did, if
ya have the option. I'm 100 percent and enjoy riding 100+ miles a
week. It's less invasive too... They suck out the disk(s)through small
incisions, and cartilage eventually grows back and supports the disks.
There's no bone fusion, no metal and there's a much shorter recovery
period with fewer chances for complications...

Hope that helps. Good luck...

Scott

Grumpy said:

Oh yes. Since my employer says their doctor (who turns out is an orthopedic
surgeon but does not see patients, makes a living writing evaluations)
states I am fit to go back to work, I will not be granted any more time off
for this injury. Per our Mutual Benefits Association (MBA) rules a patient
may have 15 months. I have no idea why my employer blindsided me with the
Independent Medical Evaluation other than it keeps the bean counters happy.

GET A LAWYER who understands personal injuries AND labor law NOW.

Grumpy said:

Sorry for the long post. Now my questions.

sorry for an off topic post? take it to a medical newsgroup.
this is a bicycle tech newsgroup!

Dennis P. Harris said:

Grumpy said:

Sorry for the long post. Now my questions.

sorry for an off topic post? take it to a medical newsgroup.
this is a bicycle tech newsgroup!

I'm confused. You gave him advice (to get a lawyer) in the post just before
this.

Bill "this is a bicycle tech newsgroup!" S.

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 13:28:09 GMT, "Grumpy" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Sorry for the long post. Now my questions.

Your ordeal sounds dreadful. I hope you heal quickly and find a way
to remain out of work until then.

However, I fail to understand how it is relevant to
rec.bicycles.tech.

On topic for all the newsgroups in this header: Lately, I've had
pain below my typical lower back pain, and off to one side. Pressing
hard near the top of my butt cheek (sorry for the plain english)
helps momentarily. Standing, laying, sitting, and walking bother it.
Bending makes it feel better, and it feels great while I'm on my
road bike (which puts me in a generally bent position).

I went to a doctor for it, and was prescribed the same sort of stuff
I usually am given for my back -- naproxen, cyclobenzaprine, and a
painkiller (I don't remember which). I had forgotten to tell the
doctor that walking hurts. I was told not to do any biking, as
remaining in one position exacerbates the spasm.

I'm supposed to take 1/2 table of the cyclobenzaprine 3 times per
day, but the side effects are too much, so I am taking just 1/2
tablet before sleeping. Is this okay? It does seem to be healing.

Is it okay to continue riding, since riding feels good, or is the
doctor right even though I forgot to tell him that riding feels good
and walking hurts? Road riding generally does put my back in one
position for an hour or two at a time, with only quick deviations.
--
Rick Onanian

"Rick Onanian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 13:28:09 GMT, "Grumpy" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Sorry for the long post. Now my questions.

Your ordeal sounds dreadful. I hope you heal quickly and find a way
to remain out of work until then.

However, I fail to understand how it is relevant to
rec.bicycles.tech.

I think it's relevant. If you can't ride a bicycle because you are
injured, the first thing you want to do is find out if your peers have
experienced the same.

winnard

winnard said:

I think it's relevant. If you can't ride a bicycle because you are
injured, the first thing you want to do is find out if your peers have
experienced the same.

The OP didn't mention anything about bicycles.
--
Rick Onanian

"Rick Onanian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

winnard said:

I think it's relevant. If you can't ride a bicycle because you are
injured, the first thing you want to do is find out if your peers have
experienced the same.

The OP didn't mention anything about bicycles.
--

Good point, off with his head!!

winnard

winnard said:

"Rick Onanian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

The OP didn't mention anything about bicycles.

Good point, off with his head!!

That ought to eliminate his back pain!
--
Rick Onanian

"Grumpy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hoping to get some spirited feedback. Sorry, I get long here.

Background: I'm a 45 yr old male, diabetic, 6'-1", 255 lbs.

I've been off work (not workman's comp) since January 15th, when I decided
to pursue what had been causing numbness in the left leg down to the foot,
and pain in my right hip.

An August '03 MRI revealed two disc herniations, L4-L5, L5-S1 which I've
learned is very common.

The doctor (surgeon #1) ordered me to remain off work, prescribed

medication

Quoted message said:

and Physical Therapy at what I'll call PT #1.

After 4 weeks of therapy (3x/week) at PT #1 I reported back that there was
no improvement his next plan was to administer an epidural (without xray).
That was performed, a new MRI was performed, followed by more PT (3

x/week).

Quoted message said:

After still no improvement he recommended the microdisectomy.

I decided to seek another opinion. Surgeon #2 said I needed "better"
physical therapy and sent me to PT #2. PT#2 was much more aggressive than
PT#1. Surgeon #2 also said I needed an epidural but with the assistance

of

Quoted message said:

xray to ensure the steroid flows where it was needed.

I pushed thru PT, had a 3rd epidural and started to see improvement. In
June the doctor upgraded my therapy to work conditioning and I was

attending

Quoted message said:

PT#2 5 days per week, 4 1/2 to 5 hours per day.

About June 15th I drove to Twin Cities Spine Center in Minneapolis for a
consultation I had arranged in April. The doctors there were wonderful, I
wish this place wasn't so far from Chicago. The doctors there said their
threshold for surgery is that the patient must be in 1 year of unrelenting
pain. The doctors said that my herniation was not severe enough to

warrant

Quoted message said:

surgery and encouraged me to continue with physical therapy. BTW-the

drive

Quoted message said:

to Minnesota caused me no discomfort whatsoever. I felt great.

Things were going great until the morning of July 18th. I woke up with a
tremendous amount of pain in the left calf. Not much pain in the back,

but

Quoted message said:

it felt as if someone gave me 6 good kicks in the calf. I could hardly
walk, let alone stand with weight on the leg. That lasted about a week

and

Quoted message said:

a half. I naturally had to back off on the therapy. I reported to the
doctors office on July 21, and new MRI was ordered and performed on July
22nd. My next appt was August 10th meaning I had to sit in agony until
August 10th.

In the interum, my employer contacted me on July 29th, saying I was

mandated

Quoted message said:

to present myself for an Independent Medical Review to a physician of

their

Quoted message said:

choosing on August 2nd. As a result of that review, the physician said I
was fit to go back to work at full duty.(which I'm not)

My return to work began August 9th and was nothing more than filling out
papers obtaining security clearance and performing Fitness for Duty to
obtain unescorted access in a nuclear facility.

I did not clear the Fitness for Duty probably because of the prescribed
FLEXERIL and NORCO I have been taking. So I am sitting at home in limbo.

Last night I met with my surgeon, explained the mess I'm in and his only

two

Quoted message said:

solutions were:

1) Perform a functional capacity test, be declared 5%, 10% whatever
handicapped and live with the pain

2) Consider surgery but before surgery he recommends a diskogram and

would

Quoted message said:

not administer diskogram unless I was serious about surgery (which I'm

not)

Quoted message said:

Wasn't real impressed with surgeon #2 manner last night. He acted as if

he

Quoted message said:

was late for tee time on the golf course. During the appointment I asked

if

Quoted message said:

there was new damage in the July MRI that did not show up in the February
MRI. He said no. Fine. Except that I have had the February MRI in my
possession the whole time and not once did the film leave the envelope

last

Quoted message said:

night. So how did he form his opinion? I'd go back to surgeon #1 but he
abruptly left his practice in May, leaving lots of patients hanging. I

met

Quoted message said:

some of those patients at PT #2.

Oh yes. Since my employer says their doctor (who turns out is an

orthopedic

Quoted message said:

surgeon but does not see patients, makes a living writing evaluations)
states I am fit to go back to work, I will not be granted any more time

off

Quoted message said:

for this injury. Per our Mutual Benefits Association (MBA) rules a

patient

Quoted message said:

may have 15 months. I have no idea why my employer blindsided me with the
Independent Medical Evaluation other than it keeps the bean counters

happy.

Quoted message said:

Sorry for the long post. Now my questions.

1) Anyone been through a similar mess?

2) Are there free websites that allow you to look up and get the goods on
suspect physicians, Illinois in this case?

3) I've heard there is something that provides longer lasting relief than
epidurals. I'm at 3 epidurals thus far, and the insurance limits me to 4
per year.

4) Anyone ever experience the calf pain?

Thanks for reading, looking for answers.

Have you read any of the John Sarno MD books? Worked for me!

Chiropractor worked for me when I had a slipped L3 disk.

I asked my 'biking' friend, who is a retired orthopedic surgeon, to read
your email and here is his response. Bear in mind he is both a good doctor
and has a good sense of humor too. I thought you might appreciate both.

Tom

Tom, Ihear this story all the time. This person probably needs to have nerve
conduction studies done by a neurologist to see if any nerve deficit is
present. If positive a lumbar myelogram might be considered. This is a test
where dye is injected into the spinal canal to evaluate the nerve rots.
Then again, this person is a diabetic. These people often have
peripherialvascular disease causing severe leg cramps. The easiest way to
check this is to just feel the guys pulses in his legs.If they are absent,
he needs to see a vascular surgeon. If all this fails. he needs to get a new
wife. Too much stress ! Ha Ha

Also, this guy needs to lose 50 lbs

Ikeep thinking of treatments. He can come to ____ get the chiros to
twist his neck every day for six months, get massage therapy daily get the
doctor to prescribe herbs and last but not least, we may have an indian or
two who dance.