Frame Choices?

On Tue, 3 Aug 2004 22:44:08 -0400, tcmedara <[email hidden]>=
=

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The continuing plethora of "what bike?" questions and the various =

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opinions
various frames got me to thinkin'..... Components are just that -- =

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easily
replaced for the most part and usually a matter of budget and personal=

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preference. But obviously the frame is key. MTBR.com, mtb rags, and e=

ven

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this illustrious newsgroup are chock full of anecdotes and opinions, b=

ut =

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not
much in the way of actionable information. Just what should one look=

=

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for
when selecting a new frame? What should one look for when shopping fo=

r a

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new frame? Not shopping, but just wondering...

Tom

Well my top two are build quality frame and the manufacturer's customer =
=

service. If both of those don't get high marks, I'll continue searching.=

::::
Slacker - done with the GTs of the world

"tcmedara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:p3YPc.8385$Bb.2153@lakeread08...

Quoted message said:

The continuing plethora of "what bike?" questions and the various opinions
various frames got me to thinkin'..... Components are just that -- easily
replaced for the most part and usually a matter of budget and personal
preference. But obviously the frame is key. MTBR.com, mtb rags, and even
this illustrious newsgroup are chock full of anecdotes and opinions, but

not

Quoted message said:

much in the way of actionable information. Just what should one look for
when selecting a new frame? What should one look for when shopping for a
new frame? Not shopping, but just wondering...

Tom

I guess its the million dollar question. One which I would like the answer
to as I am at the moment shopping for a new frame. I liked the look of
Santa Cruz but have been put off somewhat by peoples opinions on weld
quality - crucial to a reliable frame. As frames get more complex, choices
do too. Long gone are the days of solid frames with no suspension where
choices were easy - most had a lifetime warranty so choices were based on
weight and paint job. It seems nowadays manufacturers are less confident
about their quality, offering short warranties on expensive frames.

Ash

"gravelrAsh" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

I guess its the million dollar question. One which I would like the

answer

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to as I am at the moment shopping for a new frame. I liked the look of
Santa Cruz but have been put off somewhat by peoples opinions on weld
quality - crucial to a reliable frame. As frames get more complex,

choices

Quoted message said:

do too. Long gone are the days of solid frames with no suspension where
choices were easy - most had a lifetime warranty so choices were based on
weight and paint job. It seems nowadays manufacturers are less confident
about their quality, offering short warranties on expensive frames.

Ash

I have a Bullit.

SC do have a problem delivering frames and parts.

Weld problems that are prevelant enough to warrant your comment aren't true.

SC customer service for warentee work is great.

"gravelrAsh" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"tcmedara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:p3YPc.8385$Bb.2153@lakeread08...

Quoted message said:

The continuing plethora of "what bike?" questions and the various opinions
various frames got me to thinkin'..... Components are just that -- easily
replaced for the most part and usually a matter of budget and personal
preference. But obviously the frame is key. MTBR.com, mtb rags, and even
this illustrious newsgroup are chock full of anecdotes and opinions, but

not

Quoted message said:

much in the way of actionable information. Just what should one look for
when selecting a new frame? What should one look for when shopping for a
new frame? Not shopping, but just wondering...

Tom

I guess its the million dollar question. One which I would like the answer
to as I am at the moment shopping for a new frame. I liked the look of
Santa Cruz but have been put off somewhat by peoples opinions on weld
quality - crucial to a reliable frame.

Santa Cruz doesn't build frames. It is not their weld quality, it is
Kinesis' weld quality. If people don't like the welds on Santa Cruz
frames then they don't like the welds on Raleigh, Specialized,
Mountain Cycle, K2, and a load of others. As for reliability, Kinesis
also makes Motocross handlebars, Skid-plates, and radiator braces for
the motorcycle industry, and I have yet to hear any complaints on
quality from that side.

R

the perfect frame is different for everybody.

I'm running a C'dale CAAD3 hardtail and I want a full suspension. CLIMBING is really important to me.

I've seen a lot of specialized epic's around but haven't ridden it. I really like the c'dale Prophet 5.5" f/R travel and only 24#.

I'm looking for no-bob riding and good climbing .. cheap would be nice but I don't think i'll hold my breath ;-)

mark_kendrick <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

the perfect frame is different for everybody.

I'm running a C'dale CAAD3 hardtail and I want a full suspension.
CLIMBING is really important to me.

I've seen a lot of specialized epic's around but haven't ridden it. I
really like the c'dale Prophet 5.5" f/R travel and only 24#.

I'm looking for no-bob riding and good climbing .. cheap would be nice
but I don't think i'll hold my breath ;-)

Frame geometry and performance are all important issues, but are secondary
to my question. Assuming you can find two frames with identical geometry
and performance characteristics, identically spec'ed, how do you choose? I
read lots of criticism of "cookie cutter frames", but how does one tell?
What do you look for. I'm not ready to [censored] a frame just because it's
mass produced. Mass produced often means low cost production at the
expense of quality, but it could also mean economy of scale and consistency.
How does one tell the difference?

Tom

tcmedara said:

Frame geometry and performance are all important issues, but are secondary
to my question. Assuming you can find two frames with identical geometry
and performance characteristics, identically spec'ed, how do you choose? I
read lots of criticism of "cookie cutter frames", but how does one tell?
What do you look for. I'm not ready to [censored] a frame just because it's
mass produced. Mass produced often means low cost production at the
expense of quality, but it could also mean economy of scale and consistency.
How does one tell the difference?

Believe it or not, a frame doesn't really remember whether it was
lovingly brazed in a dusty one room shop in Modena or squirted off the
end of a robotic assembly line. All other things being equal, you're
not going to be able to tell the difference. Of course, those who
"know" the difference can often "feel" the difference (which promptly
disappears if you paint the frames identically and remove the decals).

Road bikes have evolved over the year into a pretty narrow range of
dimensions and angles - there are differences to be sure, but the vast
majority of most "racing bikes" are more alike than they are
different. That's a good thing though, because the "center of the
bell curve" design results in a bike that handles, climbs and sprints
very well.

Mass production in and of itself is no indication of quality - you can
mass produce shoddy frames, or do it to specs that would be hard to
match without a lot of expensive equipment.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Mark Hickey said:

Believe it or not, a frame doesn't really remember whether it was
lovingly brazed in a dusty one room shop in Modena or squirted off the
end of a robotic assembly line. All other things being equal, you're
not going to be able to tell the difference. Of course, those who
"know" the difference can often "feel" the difference (which promptly
disappears if you paint the frames identically and remove the decals).

I think there's a nugget of truth to your comments, and pretty much restates
the hypothesis that drove my intitial question. I see so many posts about
how "Bike X" is [censored], but "Company Y" makes a great product. All too often
such statements are supported by a few personal anecedotes and loads of
internet myth and liberal doses of urban legend. Ideally we'd have some
hard data to go by, but I doubt that's something the frame manufacturers are
going to want to release all that easily (if it even exists!), but I'd
settle for some plain old reasoned analysis.

So what's important? Material and quality of construction stike me as the
key factors, but how does one evaluate such things?

Tom

tcmedara said:

Mark Hickey said:

Believe it or not, a frame doesn't really remember whether it was
lovingly brazed in a dusty one room shop in Modena or squirted off the
end of a robotic assembly line. All other things being equal, you're
not going to be able to tell the difference. Of course, those who
"know" the difference can often "feel" the difference (which promptly
disappears if you paint the frames identically and remove the decals).

I think there's a nugget of truth to your comments, and pretty much restates
the hypothesis that drove my intitial question. I see so many posts about
how "Bike X" is [censored], but "Company Y" makes a great product. All too often
such statements are supported by a few personal anecedotes and loads of
internet myth and liberal doses of urban legend. Ideally we'd have some
hard data to go by, but I doubt that's something the frame manufacturers are
going to want to release all that easily (if it even exists!), but I'd
settle for some plain old reasoned analysis.

So what's important? Material and quality of construction stike me as the
key factors, but how does one evaluate such things?

The closer you come to the bleeding edge of the weight envelope, the
more you have to worry about the design and build quality. There's no
easy answer to your question - but I'd suggest looking at companies
with reputations for building reliable frames (after all, they all use
the same components, so that's a given). Be very wary of anyone
trying to sell something "different" - bikes have over 100 years of
evolution behind them, and it's "unusual" for someone to come up with
a great improvement out of the blue. Not impossible - just unusual.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

On Thu, 5 Aug 2004 21:32:00 -0400, tcmedara <[email hidden]>=
=

Quoted message said:

Mark Hickey said:

Believe it or not, a frame doesn't really remember whether it was
lovingly brazed in a dusty one room shop in Modena or squirted off th=

e

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

end of a robotic assembly line. All other things being equal, you're=

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

not going to be able to tell the difference. Of course, those who
"know" the difference can often "feel" the difference (which promptly=

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

disappears if you paint the frames identically and remove the decals)=

..

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think there's a nugget of truth to your comments, and pretty much =

Quoted message said:

restates
the hypothesis that drove my intitial question. I see so many posts =

Quoted message said:

about
how "Bike X" is [censored], but "Company Y" makes a great product. All too =

=

Quoted message said:

often
such statements are supported by a few personal anecedotes and loads o=

f

Quoted message said:

internet myth and liberal doses of urban legend. Ideally we'd have so=

me

Quoted message said:

hard data to go by, but I doubt that's something the frame manufacture=

rs =

Quoted message said:

are
going to want to release all that easily (if it even exists!), but I'd=

Quoted message said:

settle for some plain old reasoned analysis.

So what's important? Material and quality of construction stike me as =

the

Quoted message said:

key factors, but how does one evaluate such things?

Tom

You do what I did... talk and listen to other riders that are actually =

using the bikes you're considering. Also, a few phone calls, emails and =
an =

in-person visit, if possible, to the manufacturer.

I took over a year till I finally settled on my Turner. When I narrowed =
=

the search down, it boiled down to which manufacturer was the most hones=
t =

& upfront with previous frame failures. Turner didn't even hesitate for =
a =

second or beat around the bush when I talked to them. Between the few =

conversations I had with them and other rider's experience with their =

customer service, it was an easy decision.
::::
Slacker

On 2004-08-06, Mark Hickey penned:

Quoted message said:

The closer you come to the bleeding edge of the weight envelope, the
more you have to worry about the design and build quality. There's no
easy answer to your question - but I'd suggest looking at companies
with reputations for building reliable frames (after all, they all use
the same components, so that's a given). Be very wary of anyone
trying to sell something "different" - bikes have over 100 years of
evolution behind them, and it's "unusual" for someone to come up with
a great improvement out of the blue. Not impossible - just unusual.

Suspension technology is still fairly new, or at least controversial,
though, isn't it? Every brand claims to have their own solution to the
pedal bob issue and whatnot ...

I was browsing at a bike shop recently ... the person I spoke to there
made a fine point, which was that a lot of people enter a shop with a
bike already in mind, based on what their friends ride, what they've
read in the reviews, etc. This shop encourages people to try out
multiple bikes, just to be sure, and she says that often, the "dream
bike" turns out not to be nearly as sweet a ride as some other bike the
customer's never even considered. Everyone rides just a little
differently, and just because you ride the same terrain as your friends
doesn't mean you ride it the same way.

Of course, just because it rides like a dream doesn't mean it's durable.
And the only way you can really take a stab at that is to get lots of
anecdotal evidence and choose a design that's been around a few years
.... and even then, it's just odds ...

Just me babbling ... my current "dream bike that I've never actually sat
on" is the titus racer x ... like I need a new bike when I just bought
one a couple months ago. *sigh*

--
monique

"Get a bicycle. You will not regret it, if you live."
-- Mark Twain