Stoplights: fatwa requested

On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 17:15:49 -0400, Luigi de Guzman <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On the way back home from the store, I roll up to a stoplight. The
street is four lanes, two in each direction; the rightmost lane
usually fills up with right-turning traffic, while the left-hand lane
stays pretty loose. My way home is up a fairly gentle hill.

Now my first instinct as a law-abiding cyclist is to stop, take my bit
of the lane, and wait in line. But I've done that for ages and ages,
and I already know from experience that if I do, I'll just have to get
rolling again in twenty to sixty seconds.

So today I do something a little different; I look over my shoulder,
signal, join the left-hand lane, roll up right to the light. By this
time, the light has changed, and I still have enough momentum to check
back the other way, change back to the right lane, and move up the
hill.

So, fatwa time, RBM traffic muftis: Is this permissible for the
faithful cyclist, or should I just go back to waiting in the right
lane? I mention this because motorists do this sort of thing all the
time--line up in the left lane to get clear of a long line of
right-turning traffic, and then change back into the right lane when
the opportunity presents itself.

-Luigi

go play in traffic!

www.livejournal.com/users/ouij
Photos, rants, raves

I'd probably do what you're doing. I find that the worst time for me is
people taking right turns. In fact, I hit someone who turned right in
front of me (no turn signal, of course).

--
Bob in CT
Remove ".x" to reply

The _g_od John Forester has written "Cyclists fare best when they act and
are treated as drivers of vehicles." http://www.johnforester.com/

"Luigi de Guzman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
| On the way back home from the store, I roll up to a stoplight. The
| street is four lanes, two in each direction; the rightmost lane
| usually fills up with right-turning traffic, while the left-hand lane
| stays pretty loose. My way home is up a fairly gentle hill.
|
| Now my first instinct as a law-abiding cyclist is to stop, take my bit
| of the lane, and wait in line. But I've done that for ages and ages,
| and I already know from experience that if I do, I'll just have to get
| rolling again in twenty to sixty seconds.
|
| So today I do something a little different; I look over my shoulder,
| signal, join the left-hand lane, roll up right to the light. By this
| time, the light has changed, and I still have enough momentum to check
| back the other way, change back to the right lane, and move up the
| hill.
|
| So, fatwa time, RBM traffic muftis: Is this permissible for the
| faithful cyclist, or should I just go back to waiting in the right
| lane? I mention this because motorists do this sort of thing all the
| time--line up in the left lane to get clear of a long line of
| right-turning traffic, and then change back into the right lane when
| the opportunity presents itself.
|
| -Luigi
|
| go play in traffic!
|
| www.livejournal.com/users/ouij
| Photos, rants, raves

Bob in CT said:

I'd probably do what you're doing. I find that the worst time for me is
people taking right turns. In fact, I hit someone who turned right in
front of me (no turn signal, of course).

if the right lane were right turn *ONLY* i'd place myself on the right side
of the left lane, but if the right were mixed (straight thru and right
turning traffic) i'd take the (right) lane & park myself right in the middle
of it to avoid what you're talking about -- someone turning in front of me.
--
david reuteler
[email hidden]

On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 17:15:49 -0400, Luigi de Guzman <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On the way back home from the store, I roll up to a stoplight. The
street is four lanes, two in each direction; the rightmost lane
usually fills up with right-turning traffic, while the left-hand lane
stays pretty loose. My way home is up a fairly gentle hill.

Now my first instinct as a law-abiding cyclist is to stop, take my bit
of the lane, and wait in line. But I've done that for ages and ages,
and I already know from experience that if I do, I'll just have to get
rolling again in twenty to sixty seconds.

So today I do something a little different; I look over my shoulder,
signal, join the left-hand lane, roll up right to the light. By this
time, the light has changed, and I still have enough momentum to check
back the other way, change back to the right lane, and move up the
hill.

So, fatwa time, RBM traffic muftis: Is this permissible for the
faithful cyclist, or should I just go back to waiting in the right
lane? I mention this because motorists do this sort of thing all the
time--line up in the left lane to get clear of a long line of
right-turning traffic, and then change back into the right lane when
the opportunity presents itself.

-Luigi

go play in traffic!

www.livejournal.com/users/ouij
Photos, rants, raves

I do this all the time. Sometimes I'll fake the turn and make a quick U-ie,
and then another turn into the intended straight-away.

If you get run over, though, it's your fault. ;-p

-B
Of course if you get run over being law-abiding, it's -still- your fault.
;-P

That's exactly waht I do..

"David Reuteler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bob in CT said:

I'd probably do what you're doing. I find that the worst time for me is
people taking right turns. In fact, I hit someone who turned right in
front of me (no turn signal, of course).

if the right lane were right turn *ONLY* i'd place myself on the right

side

Quoted message said:

of the left lane, but if the right were mixed (straight thru and right
turning traffic) i'd take the (right) lane & park myself right in the

middle

Quoted message said:

of it to avoid what you're talking about -- someone turning in front of

me.

Quoted message said:

--
david reuteler
[email hidden]

Doug Huffman said:

The _g_od John Forester has written "Cyclists fare best when they act and
are treated as drivers of vehicles." http://www.johnforester.com/

yes yes.

I'm already quite aware of what Mr. Forester has had to say about
traffic.

The trouble with Divine Law is that it's usually couched in universal
terms, whereas we mortals live in a rather more specific world. This
is why people study Divinity--in an effort to apply universal
principles to specific situations.

Such as mine.

-Luigi

"Luigi de Guzman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

So, fatwa time, RBM traffic muftis: Is this permissible for the
faithful cyclist, or should I just go back to waiting in the right
lane? I mention this because motorists do this sort of thing all the
time--line up in the left lane to get clear of a long line of
right-turning traffic, and then change back into the right lane when
the opportunity presents itself.

In a slightly different situation:

One way street (2nd Ave Ext) intersecting with a two-way (Jackson St.). I
plan to turn left at this intersection. There are four lane choices:

#1 lane: left turn only
#2 lane: left turn and straight
#3 lane: straight
#4 lane: right turn and straight

I have been lawfully cruising along this one way street in the #1 lane, as
in our state you may be to the far left as is safe on a one-way street as
well as to the far right. The question is, what to do when making the turn
left.

After making the turn, the #2 lane is frequently clogged with buses; there's
not enough room to make the turn if there's more than one bus. Further, the
bus is just going to come to a complete halt in just a bit and load and
unload passengers at a major stop in about 10 yards.

I have come to the conclusion that the correct behavior for the cyclist is
to remain in the #1 lane on the one-way street, complete the left turn such
that one continues to be in the #1 lane, go through the next light, and then
signal a lane change in front of the loading and unloading bus. If you need
a picture, I've just uploaded one at
http://www.geocities.com/cpetersky/2ndJackson.html.

This example, I think, is fairly close to what you are suggesting? Not
staying to the right, avoiding traffic clogs, but eventually moving to the
right when practical.

--
Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky
please substitute yahoo for mousepotato to reply
Home of the meditative cyclist:
http://home.earthlink.net/~cpetersky/Welcome.htm
Personal page: http://www.geocities.com/cpetersky/
See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky

Luigi de Guzman said:

... Is this permissible for the
faithful cyclist, or should I just go back to waiting in the right
lane?

Sounds fine to me. There's no law that says the bicycle _must_ be the
slowest vehicle on the road.

If you're moving at the speed of traffic, you should generally take the
lane.

If you're moving faster than the speed of traffic, you should generally
pass on the left. That's what you're doing.

The only trick is, keep aware of traffic in that right lane. You could
get into a weird situation where nobody does turn right, they buzz off
ahead of you, and impatient drivers behind you start peeling out of your
lane and passing you on your right. Not an insurmountable difficulty,
but you'd want to be careful with it because it's a little non-standard.

--
--------------------+
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com,
replace with cc.ysu dot edu]

Quoted message said:

Luigi de Guzman [email hidden]

wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

On the way back home from the store, I roll up to a stoplight. The
street is four lanes, two in each direction; the rightmost lane
usually fills up with right-turning traffic, while the left-hand lane
stays pretty loose. My way home is up a fairly gentle hill.

Now my first instinct as a law-abiding cyclist is to stop, take my bit
of the lane, and wait in line. But I've done that for ages and ages,
and I already know from experience that if I do, I'll just have to get
rolling again in twenty to sixty seconds.

So today I do something a little different; I look over my shoulder,
signal, join the left-hand lane, roll up right to the light. By this
time, the light has changed, and I still have enough momentum to check
back the other way, change back to the right lane, and move up the
hill.

Just so I'm clear on the situation, allow me draw a mental picture of this
intersection. Two 4 laned roads intersect at right angles, one going
north/south and the other east/west. The intersection is controlled by a
stoplight and all lanes of both roads are potential through lanes, i.e., no
designated "(this) lane must turn (thus)" lanes. You are stopped at the light
on the south side of the intersection. You are traveling north on the
north/south road.

Situation #1- You intend to continue north on that road once you have the green
light and can cross the east/west road. What's the problem? Take either of the
two northbound lanes. If you take the left and want to move back to right after
clearing the intersection, go ahead and do it. So long as you clear the
intersection before changing lanes, it is a perfectly legal manuever.
Situation #2- You intend to turn east onto the east/west road. Do not pass
others and then cut back in. That's both rude and dangerous for obvious
reasons. Get in the right lane and wait your turn. Consider it a chance to
stretch any sore muscles.
Situation #3- You intend to turn west onto the east/west road. You would be in
the left lane and your question would have never occurred to you. ;-)
Situation #4- You intend to make a u-turn and head south. Don't. U-turns at
intersections are dangerous and usually illegal.
Situation #5- You intend to park your bike there and put a for sale sign on it.
Wrong group. Try rec.bicycles.marketplace. ;-)

Did I miss any possibilities?

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Luigi de Guzman said:

On the way back home from the store, I roll up to a stoplight. The
street is four lanes, two in each direction; the rightmost lane
usually fills up with right-turning traffic, while the left-hand lane
stays pretty loose. My way home is up a fairly gentle hill.

Now my first instinct as a law-abiding cyclist is to stop, take my bit
of the lane, and wait in line. But I've done that for ages and ages,
and I already know from experience that if I do, I'll just have to get
rolling again in twenty to sixty seconds.

So today I do something a little different; I look over my shoulder,
signal, join the left-hand lane, roll up right to the light. By this
time, the light has changed, and I still have enough momentum to check
back the other way, change back to the right lane, and move up the
hill.

So, fatwa time, RBM traffic muftis: Is this permissible for the
faithful cyclist, or should I just go back to waiting in the right
lane? I mention this because motorists do this sort of thing all the
time--line up in the left lane to get clear of a long line of
right-turning traffic, and then change back into the right lane when
the opportunity presents itself.

-Luigi

go play in traffic!

www.livejournal.com/users/ouij
Photos, rants, raves

Sounds reasonable and perfectly normal to me. You ride a pretty zippy
bike to boot, so you aren't holding up traffic either. And like Frank K
said, be aware of impatient passers on your right.
Enjoy the ride!
Bernie

In article <[email hidden]>,

Luigi de Guzman said:

On the way back home from the store, I roll up to a stoplight. The
street is four lanes, two in each direction; the rightmost lane
usually fills up with right-turning traffic, while the left-hand lane
stays pretty loose. My way home is up a fairly gentle hill.

Now my first instinct as a law-abiding cyclist is to stop, take my bit
of the lane, and wait in line. But I've done that for ages and ages,
and I already know from experience that if I do, I'll just have to get
rolling again in twenty to sixty seconds.

So today I do something a little different; I look over my shoulder,
signal, join the left-hand lane, roll up right to the light. By this
time, the light has changed, and I still have enough momentum to check
back the other way, change back to the right lane, and move up the
hill.

So, fatwa time, RBM traffic muftis: Is this permissible for the
faithful cyclist, or should I just go back to waiting in the right
lane? I mention this because motorists do this sort of thing all the
time--line up in the left lane to get clear of a long line of
right-turning traffic, and then change back into the right lane when
the opportunity presents itself.

After that build-up, I thought you were going to ask us if it was okay
to run the light.

This is an _excellent_ idea. Heck, it's why cycling in traffic isn't a
chore. The key to re-entry to the right lane after the intersection is a
fairly fast start, picking your spot as soon as possible, and a big,
decisive, Nazi-salute-that-veered-off-course hand signal. I usually give
mine full arm extension and a pump so that cars are left under no
illusions as to my intentions (true: you can basically hold back cars
with a firm and vigorous arm-signal, thus making your own holes).

Full disclosure: I am not a traffic purist. I don't run lights at full
roll, but I lane-split stopped vehicles aggressively. I have a very
similar situation to yours every day, in which the right lane tails back
with right turners, and the left has a shorter line. I usually change
into the left lane once traffic in the right lane has stopped moving in
front of me, and on particularly backed-up days, will lane-split from
the back of the left-lane line to the front of the lines, coming to rest
on the left side of the right lane, trying to leave room clear for right
turners behind me. From there, I move across the intersection, make sure
the car behind me is turning right or lagging, and then move to the
right side of the lane as soon after the intersection as is possible.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com
Verus de parvis; verus de magnis.

On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 23:00:44 GMT, "Claire Petersky"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

<snip detailed description in favour of URL to drawing below>

Quoted message said:

I have come to the conclusion that the correct behavior for the cyclist is
to remain in the #1 lane on the one-way street, complete the left turn such
that one continues to be in the #1 lane, go through the next light, and then
signal a lane change in front of the loading and unloading bus. If you need
a picture, I've just uploaded one at
http://www.geocities.com/cpetersky/2ndJackson.html.

This example, I think, is fairly close to what you are suggesting? Not
staying to the right, avoiding traffic clogs, but eventually moving to the
right when practical.

Kind of, except that I'm not turning. This was a situation I'd get
fairly often in London, though.

Things will get confusing, so here's a map--note the traffic flow
arrows on it.

http://tinyurl.com/rpq3

I would be proceeding from Kingsway, at the apex of the Aldwych, and
looping around so that I could then go Westbound on The Strand.

This area happens to be where many bus routes converge, so the outside
lane (LEFT) tends to fill up with buses. I would tend to line up on
the outside of the turn that brings me about to face West (with St.
Clement Danes Church behind me), then change lanes to overtake the
stopped buses along The Strand, and tuck back into the leftmost lane
preparing to make the left onto Lancaster Pl/Waterloo Bridge (and thus
home)

The nice thing about buses, particularly when they are full of
commuters, is that they don't accelerate very quickly, and so it was
pretty easy to nip about and find the gaps to pass them and rejoin the
relevant queue when I'd passed the stopped bus(es).

[Incidentally, at rush hour, the few hundred yards represented by that
route is a lot of fun)

With private cars, I'm never sure how fast they'll go tearing off the
line, which is why I usually hesitate to change lanes. But at least
now, I'll feel much better about passing on the left. The
alternatives--sitting and waiting (god I hate stop & go traffic), or
passing on the right (& risking being squeezed on the inside by a
right-turning car)--weren't much fun, and I'd tried both.

-Luigi

go play in traffic!

www.livejournal.com/users/ouij
photos, rants, raves

On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 00:07:43 -0700, Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

This is an _excellent_ idea. Heck, it's why cycling in traffic isn't a
chore. The key to re-entry to the right lane after the intersection is a
fairly fast start,

I'm still working on that. I sprint like a snail on quaaludes. I can
roll up to a good speed once I've gotten myself going, but I'm not as
fast off the line as my little brother.

Quoted message said:

picking your spot as soon as possible, and a big,
decisive, Nazi-salute-that-veered-off-course hand signal. I usually give
mine full arm extension and a pump so that cars are left under no
illusions as to my intentions (true: you can basically hold back cars
with a firm and vigorous arm-signal, thus making your own holes).

Good handsignals are an asset in traffic, yeah. The right-hand
right-turn signal, which is unambiguous, has only just been legalized
in the Commonwealth of Virginia, effective this summer (I think). I
love the almost-Mosaic effect of a good hand signal; people sit up,
pay attention, yield you a bit of space, and in your minor miracle,
you pass unharmed through the sea of steel.

Quoted message said:

Full disclosure: I am not a traffic purist. I don't run lights at full
roll, but I lane-split stopped vehicles aggressively. I have a very
similar situation to yours every day, in which the right lane tails back
with right turners, and the left has a shorter line. I usually change
into the left lane once traffic in the right lane has stopped moving in
front of me, and on particularly backed-up days, will lane-split from
the back of the left-lane line to the front of the lines, coming to rest
on the left side of the right lane, trying to leave room clear for right
turners behind me. From there, I move across the intersection, make sure
the car behind me is turning right or lagging, and then move to the
right side of the lane as soon after the intersection as is possible.

I've lane-split in this way at other intersections, but pretty rarely,
because it makes me nervous. whenever I come to stoplights, I tend
not to be moving through them or up queues of traffic pell-mell, since
all those idling cars make me nervous. (Funny how I'm nervous when
they're idling and less so when they're moving!)

-Luigi

go play in traffic!

www.livejournal.com/users/ouij
Photos, Rants, Raves

On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 00:07:11 -0700, Bernie <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

You ride a pretty zippy
bike to boot, so you aren't holding up traffic either.

The bike ain't so zippy-looking when I've plonked my fat [censored] onto it.

Although lately, on short trips in town, I have been hoping to get
speeding tickets, since I do move a bit faster than 25 mph in the
neighborhood streets. It's a pity that the cops always set their
habitual speed-trap on the last gentle slope home--they point their
radar guns at me, clock me, shout out the speed, and a bit of genuine
encouragement.

Maybe I should talk to the bike patrol guys and ask to go out riding
with them someday.

-Luigi

go play in traffic!

www.livejournal.com/users/ouij
Photos, Rants, Raves

I understand where you're coming from, but I would try to act as much like a
vehicle as possible. First you're using the left lane to get around right
lane traffic, next thing you'll be cutting through parking lots! LOL.
Seriously, if you can get away with it more power to ya.

Mike

Luigi de Guzman said:

I love the almost-Mosaic effect of a good hand signal; people sit up,
pay attention, yield you a bit of space, and in your minor miracle,
you pass unharmed through the sea of steel.

Or the almost-mosaic effect of breaking the traffic picture up into
hundreds of tesserae, allowing you to slip in between the cracks?

Hmmm. No, I guess I like your version better. ;-)

--
--------------------+
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com,
replace with cc.ysu dot edu]

"Mike Beauchamp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"David Reuteler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bob in CT said:

I'd probably do what you're doing. I find that the worst time for me is
people taking right turns. In fact, I hit someone who turned right in
front of me (no turn signal, of course).

if the right lane were right turn *ONLY* i'd place myself on the right

side

Quoted message said:

of the left lane, but if the right were mixed (straight thru and right
turning traffic) i'd take the (right) lane & park myself right in the

middle

Quoted message said:

of it to avoid what you're talking about -- someone turning in front of

me.

Quoted message said:

--

That's exactly waht I do..

Me too. I do the same thing when I am making a left turn in a left
turn lane where the traffice can either go straight or turn left.

Regarding the right turn, let me add that when and if I get to the
front of the line (if all the cars in front of me make right turns) I
won't block the lane. I will check to see if the car behind me wants
to turn right. If so, I will move to the left and forward just enough
for him to get through.

Tom

Luigi de Guzman <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

So, fatwa time, RBM traffic muftis: Is this permissible for the
faithful cyclist, or should I just go back to waiting in the right
lane? I mention this because motorists do this sort of thing all the
time--line up in the left lane to get clear of a long line of
right-turning traffic, and then change back into the right lane when
the opportunity presents itself.

My $.02.... if you see a big lineup of cars that you *know* are all going
to turn right, then why not?

My only concern would be if there are other cars in that right lane lineup
that are not turning, and would accelerate after the light, leaving you
having to negotiate your way back into the righthand lane with the traffic
on both lanes now moving faster than you are (or trying to).

Car drivers in my area often fail to signal turns. In a right lane stopped
at a light I usually see a mix of cars signalling right turns, and others
with no signals blinking. I can never be sure what the intentions of those
non-signalling drivers are. So speaking only for myself, I'd probably just
stay in the right lane (taking the lane so nobody can turn in front of me),
and wait it out. But I'm getting more conservative about this stuff in my
geezerdom.

--
Mike Barrs

David Reuteler said:

Bob in CT said:

I'd probably do what you're doing. I find that the worst time for me is
people taking right turns. In fact, I hit someone who turned right in
front of me (no turn signal, of course).

if the right lane were right turn *ONLY* i'd place myself on the right side
of the left lane, but if the right were mixed (straight thru and right
turning traffic) i'd take the (right) lane & park myself right in the middle
of it to avoid what you're talking about -- someone turning in front of me.

I take the right lane, for the same reason. I position myself smack in
the middle of the lane behind the next car. I sprint like a snail
myself, but I value my hide enough that I don't want the motorist behind
me thinking he can turn right and cut into me when I'm accelerating.
Better safe than sorry -- I live in a fairly cycle-friendly area, but I
still get clueless people yelling "SIDEWALK!" at me when I'm riding in a
bike lane on a marked county bike route (go figure), so ya never know.

--
the black rose
proud to be owned by a yorkie
http://community.webshots.com/user/blackrosequilts