Wheel/gear upgrade

Theo Markettos said:

The bike an MBK Mistral, a brand I've never heard of - something like a
1980s tourer. The rims are quite reasonable aluminium but the spokes are
galvanised and don't seem to be very happy - last spoke break was when I had
40kg of shopping on the back.

Moral of the story is don't put 40 Kg of shopping on the back. Get a
trailer, though note that a BoB Yak, designed for specifically for
loading, is only rated to 35 Kg! (though you can still put stuff on the
bike as well)

Quoted message said:

So I'm wondering what quality the cheap 25
pound mass produced wheels would be which seem to have galvanised spokes,
and whether stainless steel spokes would be better? Unfortunately noone
seems to sell pre-built wheels with stainless steel spokes (if I'm going to
pay for someone to build it I might as well do it myself, or at least
specify the components). I've done a front wheelbuild before, but never a
rear.

With 40 Kg of extra load on the back I wouldn't be at all surprised if
any mass produced budget wheel started blowing spokes. They're just not
built for that sort of thing. If you really want to load everything on
the back then look at a custom tandem wheel (more spokes for more
strength), but really you'd be better off IMHO not putting 40 Kg on the
back of the bike. If a trailer doesn't suit (though it really would be
the best way) then split the load about 60/40 front rear. The bike will
handle better too, though again I'd look at better wheels than cheap
mass produced ones.

Quoted message said:

Am I just jumping into lots of expensive pitfalls here? I don't want to
spend too much, partly because the bike isn't worth a lot and partly because
if it looks good it's likely to get nicked. But having something that works
properly is the primary requirement.

Just get a trailer to do your shopping as your first stop, IMHO. That
should stop the wheels breaking, and you can always let gravity get you
down hills in the meantime.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Theo Markettos said:

So I broke another spoke today on my rear wheel. It's the second
break in about 3 months, and when I took it into the LBS last time
they patched it up but said the rims probably need replacing. So I
think I'm in the market for a new wheel.

The bike an MBK Mistral, a brand I've never heard of - something like
a 1980s tourer. The rims are quite reasonable aluminium but the
spokes are galvanised and don't seem to be very happy - last spoke
break was when I had 40kg of shopping on the back. So I'm wondering
what quality the cheap 25 pound mass produced wheels would be which
seem to have galvanised spokes, and whether stainless steel spokes
would be better? Unfortunately noone seems to sell pre-built wheels
with stainless steel spokes (if I'm going to pay for someone to build
it I might as well do it myself, or at least specify the components).
I've done a front wheelbuild before, but never a rear.

Stainless steel spokes are stronger as well as being corrosion resistant,
certainly worth getting. Some mail order/online suppliers don't charge
for buidling, by the way.

Quoted message said:

I've also been contemplating upgrading the gears at some point; it's
a 12 speed bike but I don't see much difference between the two front
cogs and I'd like to increase the range on both ends - in particular
the fastest speed gear could do with increasing a bit as I tend to
run out of pedal force when coming down hills very easily. It would
also be nice to add a granny gear for going uphill - the bike is fine
in Cambridgeshire but will probably keel over on real hills. The
down-tube shifters don't have any indexing at all so I should be OK
on that count (and seem to have lots of slack at the bottom end).

So a rim is a rim and spokes are spokes, but what options do I have
for the gearing? I've got a screw-on freewheel block at the moment;
presumably I'd have to change the hub too if I wanted to increase the
gearing? Is it possible to get gearsets with more range between
gears, not just more cogs? I'd rather not have to get a new cassette
hub, non-quick release skewer and freewheel block if I can help it.

Cassette hubs aren't expensive and your frame could probably be "spread"
to accommodate a wider hub so maybe you should reconsider. Cassette hubs
are stronger, more versatile and it's much easier to get the sprockets off
them.

Quoted message said:

If I have to do that, which hubs are relatively cheap but reliable -
I see zillions listed but can't really see the difference?

Any of suitable dimensions from Shimano or Campagnolo. Differences
between models can be found on the manufacturers' websites if you download
the exploded diagrams.

Quoted message said:

And if
I'm buying a rim (700c) can anyone recommend a not-too-expensive but
reasonable quality rim - my current rims are 15mm, but I see St
John's St lists lots of rims to 'fit tyres 19-28mm' which I'm
guessing wouldn't fit?

No, that width should be all right. I'll pass on recommending any
inexpensive rims for the moment because I don't know of any that I'm happy
to call "reasonably decent" :-(
(I use Open Pros on my road bike; MA3 front and A719 rear on tourer:
MA3 is cheap but not great for rear wheels, IMO).

Quoted message said:

Am I just jumping into lots of expensive pitfalls here? I don't want
to spend too much, partly because the bike isn't worth a lot and
partly because if it looks good it's likely to get nicked. But
having something that works properly is the primary requirement.

You could get tempted onto the slippery slope of an expensive major
rebuild, but that first step of a decent pair of wheels would be a good
investment. They could be used for years to come, on future bikes as
well.

~PB

Peter Clinch said:

Just get a trailer to do your shopping as your first stop, IMHO. That
should stop the wheels breaking, and you can always let gravity get
you down hills in the meantime.

A trailer would better take the heavy groceries I carry as well but I
ain't getting one, not for the time being anyway. They're just not
practical for all of us, Pete.

My new rear wheel with A719 36h rim and Alpine III spokes drive side is
coping very well so far. It's really regular long-distance riding that
you have to worry much about spoke fatigue and I'm guessing, like me, Theo
isn't riding all that many miles to do the shopping.

Spokes should not snap on the wheel if is built well and strong, and
spokes are stress relieved.

A wide tyre will also add to the general reliability of the wheel.

~PB

Peter Clinch said:

Moral of the story is don't put 40 Kg of shopping on the back.

Perhaps cyclists who are 40 Kg heavier than average should chop a couple
of limbs off and carry them in a trailer, too.

~PB

Pete Biggs said:

Peter Clinch wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Moral of the story is don't put 40 Kg of shopping on the back.

Quoted message said:

Perhaps cyclists who are 40 Kg heavier than average should chop a couple
of limbs off and carry them in a trailer, too.

And I've regularly cycled with 60+ kg of friend on the rack
in Amsterdam :-)

Roos

in message <[email hidden]>, Theo Markettos

(') said:

So I broke another spoke today on my rear wheel. It's the second
break in about 3 months, and when I took it into the LBS last time
they patched it up
but said the rims probably need replacing. So I think I'm in the
market for a new wheel.

The bike an MBK Mistral, a brand I've never heard of

French make, at least moderately reputable, nowadays mostly make motor
scooters.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Wannabe a Web designer?
<URL:http://userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/97dec/19971206.html>

in message <[email hidden]>, Pete Biggs

(') said:

Theo Markettos said:

So I broke another spoke today on my rear wheel. It's the second
break in about 3 months, and when I took it into the LBS last time
they patched it up but said the rims probably need replacing. So I
think I'm in the market for a new wheel.

The bike an MBK Mistral, a brand I've never heard of - something like
a 1980s tourer. The rims are quite reasonable aluminium but the
spokes are galvanised and don't seem to be very happy - last spoke
break was when I had 40kg of shopping on the back. So I'm wondering
what quality the cheap 25 pound mass produced wheels would be which
seem to have galvanised spokes, and whether stainless steel spokes
would be better? Unfortunately noone seems to sell pre-built wheels
with stainless steel spokes (if I'm going to pay for someone to build
it I might as well do it myself, or at least specify the components).
I've done a front wheelbuild before, but never a rear.

Stainless steel spokes are stronger as well as being corrosion
resistant,
certainly worth getting. Some mail order/online suppliers don't
charge for buidling, by the way.

Quoted message said:

I've also been contemplating upgrading the gears at some point; it's
a 12 speed bike but I don't see much difference between the two front
cogs and I'd like to increase the range on both ends - in particular
the fastest speed gear could do with increasing a bit as I tend to
run out of pedal force when coming down hills very easily. It would
also be nice to add a granny gear for going uphill - the bike is fine
in Cambridgeshire but will probably keel over on real hills. The
down-tube shifters don't have any indexing at all so I should be OK
on that count (and seem to have lots of slack at the bottom end).

So a rim is a rim and spokes are spokes, but what options do I have
for the gearing? I've got a screw-on freewheel block at the moment;
presumably I'd have to change the hub too if I wanted to increase the
gearing? Is it possible to get gearsets with more range between
gears, not just more cogs? I'd rather not have to get a new cassette
hub, non-quick release skewer and freewheel block if I can help it.

Cassette hubs aren't expensive and your frame could probably be
"spread"
to accommodate a wider hub so maybe you should reconsider. Cassette
hubs are stronger, more versatile and it's much easier to get the
sprockets off them.

On this subject:

My road frame is a Raleigh Record Sprint, 501 tubing so not great and
one day I'll get a better one but in the meantime it does. I'm
gradually replacing the drive train. There are at present quite a lot
of good Campag eight-speed bits going on eBay for non-scarey amounts.

Am I right in thinking that Campag eight and ten speed hubs have the
same over-the-locknut dimension (Sheldon says 130mm)? If so I'll
cold-set to 130 and go for second-hand eight speed bits just now.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; An enamorata is for life, not just for weekends.

Simon Brooke <[email hidden]>typed

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The bike an MBK Mistral, a brand I've never heard of

Quoted message said:

French make, at least moderately reputable, nowadays mostly make motor
scooters.

Motobecane as was IIRC

--
Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden]
Edgware.

In message <[email hidden]>, Pete Biggs
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Theo Markettos said:

The bike an MBK Mistral, a brand I've never heard of - something like
a 1980s tourer. The rims are quite reasonable aluminium but the
spokes are galvanised and don't seem to be very happy -

Stainless steel spokes are stronger as well as being corrosion resistant,
certainly worth getting. Some mail order/online suppliers don't charge
for buidling, by the way.

But are they? or rather, would an equivalent galvanised spoke be as
strong?

ISTR reading some years back in the CTC rag an article (by CJ I
presume) about this and him reckoning that galvanised spokes were
stronger, but of course suffer corrosion, look less shiney etc. ISTR
that he reckoned that galvanised spokes were more resilient or somesuch

Whether or not you could get an equivalent quality galvanised spoke
nowadays is another point of course.
--
Chris French, Leeds

Simon Brooke said:

My road frame is a Raleigh Record Sprint, 501 tubing so not great and
one day I'll get a better one but in the meantime it does. I'm
gradually replacing the drive train. There are at present quite a lot
of good Campag eight-speed bits going on eBay for non-scarey amounts.

Am I right in thinking that Campag eight and ten speed hubs have the
same over-the-locknut dimension (Sheldon says 130mm)? If so I'll
cold-set to 130 and go for second-hand eight speed bits just now.

That's right, all 130mm. I personally would choose low end 9sp over high
end 8sp if Ergo levers were to be included: more comfy lever shape and no
shortage of cassettes.

~PB

chris French said:

ISTR reading some years back in the CTC rag an article (by CJ I
presume) about this and him reckoning that galvanised spokes were
stronger, but of course suffer corrosion, look less shiney etc. ISTR
that he reckoned that galvanised spokes were more resilient or
somesuch

"Cheap wheels are built with chrome-plated ('UCP'😉or zinc-plated
('galvanized'😉 carbon-steel spokes, which are not as strong [as stainless
steel], and are prone to rust."
- www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

On the other hand, some other steels are said to be stronger than
stainless when it comes to bolts. Galvanized spokes look and feel
horrible after a while anyway. Nasty!

~PB

Pete Biggs said:

Perhaps cyclists who are 40 Kg heavier than average should chop a couple
of limbs off and carry them in a trailer, too.

But they won't be loading the back wheel only, which 40 Kg of groceries
on the back will.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Roos Eisma said:

And I've regularly cycled with 60+ kg of friend on the rack=20
in Amsterdam :-)

There are bikes and there are bikes. I doubt that the one in question=20
here had =A325 off the peg wheels. If it was your Giant, I know damn wel=
l=20
it doesn't, and if it was a the sort of bike more common in Amsterdam=20
then they're built like tanks so can take the above in their stride.

Pete.
--=20
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Pete Biggs said:

"Cheap wheels are built with chrome-plated ('UCP'😉or zinc-plated
('galvanized'😉 carbon-steel spokes, which are not as strong [as stainless
steel], and are prone to rust."
- www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

On the other hand, some other steels are said to be stronger than
stainless when it comes to bolts. Galvanized spokes look and feel
horrible after a while anyway. Nasty!

OTOH

"Plated and stainless spokes can be made equally strong, but lasting
wheels are usually built with stainless spokes that do not deteriorate
from exposure to weather. Chromed spokes have their place especially
together with polished aluminum rims under the lights at six day races"
- Jobst Brandt, The Bicycle Wheel

I suspect the difference is between "can be made" and "are made" in most
circumstances

Tony

in message <[email hidden]>, chris French

(') said:

In message <[email hidden]>, Pete Biggs
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Theo Markettos said:

The bike an MBK Mistral, a brand I've never heard of - something
like
a 1980s tourer. The rims are quite reasonable aluminium but the
spokes are galvanised and don't seem to be very happy -

Stainless steel spokes are stronger as well as being corrosion
resistant,
certainly worth getting. Some mail order/online suppliers don't
charge for buidling, by the way.

But are they? or rather, would an equivalent galvanised spoke be as
strong?

The zinc coating has a certain thickness and isn't load bearing. So the
thickness of the steel core inside the zinc must necessarily be less
than a stainless steel spoke of the same exterior diameter.

Quoted message said:

ISTR reading some years back in the CTC rag an article (by CJ I
presume) about this and him reckoning that galvanised spokes were
stronger, but of course suffer corrosion, look less shiney etc. ISTR
that he reckoned that galvanised spokes were more resilient or
somesuch

This may be true; after all, you can galvanise almost any steel. But
stainless steels have been getting better over the years and I'd be
surprised is some stainless steels did not have the perfect qualities
for spokes by now. After all tension members of various kinds are one
of the significant uses of stainless.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; I'd rather live in sybar-space

Peter Clinch said:

Quoted message said:

Perhaps cyclists who are 40 Kg heavier than average should chop a
couple of limbs off and carry them in a trailer, too.

But they won't be loading the back wheel only, which 40 Kg of
groceries on the back will.

All right, a person 60 Kg heavier on an upright bike. Most of that extra
weight ends up on back wheel. A good wheel can be strong & reliable
enough to take it, especially for short distances.

~PB

Pete Biggs said:

All right, a person 60 Kg heavier on an upright bike. Most of that ext=

ra

Quoted message said:

weight ends up on back wheel. A good wheel can be strong & reliable
enough to take it, especially for short distances.

It /can/ be, yes, but "good wheel" and "=A325 off the peg wheel" are not =

freely interchangeable terms. A good wheel costs money which may well=20
be better off going towards a trailer, which is a plain better way of=20
shifting 40 Kg of cargo than sticking it on the back of the bike. Aside =

from the wheel's life, you'll improve the handling of the bike.

And if you don't want a trailer it's still a bad way to do it. Heavy=20
loads are best split about 60/40 front rear, not all piled on the back,=20
unless you like making life unnecessarily difficult for yourself. See=20
Chris Juden's article on loading bikes a couple of issues of Cycling back=
=2E

It's a bit like the recent thing on hanging bags off the bars. It isn't =

that it can't be done, it just isn't too clever to do if it's a regular=20
fixture of the loading. If it's a regular thing, do it the easy way=20
rather than beef up stuff to let you get away with the bad way.

Pete.
--=20
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]=20
says...

Quoted message said:

It /can/ be, yes, but "good wheel" and "=A325 off the peg wheel" are not
freely interchangeable terms. A good wheel costs money which may well=20
be better off going towards a trailer, which is a plain better way of=20
shifting 40 Kg of cargo than sticking it on the back of the bike. Aside
from the wheel's life, you'll improve the handling of the bike.

Good wheel + some of your time retensioning ~=A350 Trailer ~ =A3150. While =
a=20
trailer may be the better option there are many reasons not to, starting=20
with price and ending with storage (Yes there are foldable trailers but=20
they're certainly no cheaper!)
=20

Quoted message said:

And if you don't want a trailer it's still a bad way to do it. Heavy=20
loads are best split about 60/40 front rear, not all piled on the back,=

=20

Quoted message said:

unless you like making life unnecessarily difficult for yourself. See=20
Chris Juden's article on loading bikes a couple of issues of Cycling back=

..

Presupposes presence of a front rack.

Quoted message said:

It's a bit like the recent thing on hanging bags off the bars. It isn't
that it can't be done, it just isn't too clever to do if it's a regular=

=20

Quoted message said:

fixture of the loading. If it's a regular thing, do it the easy way=20
rather than beef up stuff to let you get away with the bad way.

See above. Obviously the best thing to do would be to use a geniune=20
freight bike, but where money is a issue, this is not a possibility. The=20
same problems apply further down the scale.

Jon

Jon Senior said:

Good wheel + some of your time retensioning ~=A350 Trailer ~ =A3150.

It's not too hard to find one for rather less than that. Philips Mule=20
is =A3100, will do 40 Kg and features hard base and rain cover. Much=20
easier to load as well compared to piling things on the back. A quick=20
Google revealed a new Eco trailer for =A360, which will take 40 Kg and ha=
s=20
an easy to load cargo bin.
This is before we start looking second hand, where it shouldn't be too=20
hard coming in well under your =A350.

Quoted message said:

trailer may be the better option there are many reasons not to, startin=

g=20

Quoted message said:

with price and ending with storage (Yes there are foldable trailers but=

=20

Quoted message said:

they're certainly no cheaper!)

Trailers aren't actually that big. You'd need a very major space crisis =

not to have room for one. Not to say nobody will have such a crisis,=20
but no indication it's a problem here.

Quoted message said:

Presupposes presence of a front rack.

Bor Yueh lowrider rack is =A315, doesn't need any braze ons.

Pete.
--=20
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/