Old school steel bikes Vs. "New" school bikes

"Bill K." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This is a first time question, so take it easy on me. Like aluminum, steel tubes seem to be
getting larger and larger. Old school bikes seemed to have 1" top tubes and 1 1/8 down and seat
tubes as a general rule. Many of the cutting edge steel bikes out there now have 1 1/4 top and
down tubes. I know that the larger diameter tubes will make the frame stiffer, but these same
tubes are much thinner than the old school bikes. It seems to me, that these thinner tubes will
take away some of this stiffness. Is this correct, or is my thinking faulty ? I've got both an old
school and a modern steel bike, and the new one "seems" to handle better at high speed. Part (or
all) of the problem could be the fact that I was 20 pounds lighter when the old steel bike handled
great. The new bike doesn't seem to mind that I've gone up a shorts size. My last question is
about the "beer can" effect on steel tubes. Are there any guesses on what the limit is for tube
thickness for steel bikes ? My old frame is Columbus TSX UL, and the new one is True Temper OX
platinum.

I have seen the superfluous use of "school" with "old" once before. Do you think is clarifies better
than simply stating the year? It didn't help me to undertsand your particular question.

And no, I do not think that tube outer diameter in and of itself is noticeable in a bicycle frame.
Stiffness variance among things you mention are IMHO below what a rider can feel.

Often when riders claim a frame has "gone soft" what they mean is " my new bicycle is too damn short
and feels harsh" or ocasionally they mean "these stupid 20mm tires are too skinny" in relation to
their older gear. The classic style frame is of course faulted as a way of justifying the new
bicycle, comfort be damned. Are the wheels being swapped between bikes? That's a big variable in
"feel" - much more than frames I think.

--
Andrew Muzi yellowjersey.orgyellowjersey.orgOpen ↗ Open every day since 1 April 1971

In article said:

This is a first time question, so take it easy on me. Like aluminum, steel tubes seem to be getting
larger and larger. Old school bikes seemed to have 1" top tubes and 1 1/8 down and seat tubes as a
general rule. Many of the cutting edge steel bikes out there now have 1 1/4 top and down tubes. I
know that the larger diameter tubes will make the frame stiffer, but these same tubes are much
thinner than the old school bikes. It seems to me, that these thinner tubes will take away some of
this stiffness. Is this correct, or is my thinking faulty ?

Faulty! Bigger tubes are stiffer even when thinner. I have one of those fat-tube steel bikes
(Dedacciai Zero tubing) and it is super stiff even in 62cm.

Quoted message said:

I've got both an old school and a modern steel bike, and the new one "seems" to handle better at
high speed. Part (or all) of the problem could be the fact that I was 20 pounds lighter when the
old steel bike handled great.

Stiffness can affect high speed handling but the frame geometry and how you fit on the bike are also
significant factors that will probably not be the same between your old & new bikes.

Quoted message said:

The new bike doesn't seem to mind that I've gone up a shorts size. My last question is about the
"beer can" effect on steel tubes. Are there any guesses on what the limit is for tube thickness for
steel bikes ?

No idea.

Quoted message said:

My old frame is Columbus TSX UL, and the new one is True Temper OX platinum.

"A Muzi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

And no, I do not think that tube outer diameter in and of itself is noticeable in a bicycle frame.
Stiffness variance among things you mention are IMHO below what a rider can feel.

That's not true. Though what you feel is the entire bicycle, not just the frame. You can certainly
see and hear (noises from rubbing) when your bike flexes and feel the effect on handling.

Newer bikes seem to be better designed with respect to geometry. I have seen some older bikes with
very strange geometry and poor handling.

Quoted message said:

The classic style frame is of course faulted as a way of justifying the new bicycle, comfort
be damned.

With regards to a bike frame I think stiffer is better, esp. with regards to handling and it doesn't
have anything to do with comfort. Comfort comes from the position, tires, seat, possibly suspension,
etc. I don't see an advantage to less stiffness.

-Amit

"Paul Southworth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article

<[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Bill K. <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This is a first time question, so take it easy on me. Like aluminum, steel tubes seem to be
getting larger and

larger. Old

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

school bikes seemed to have 1" top tubes and 1 1/8 down

and seat tubes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

as a general rule. Many of the cutting edge steel bikes

out there now

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

have 1 1/4 top and down tubes. I know that the larger diameter tubes will make the frame

stiffer, but

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

these same tubes are much thinner than the old school

bikes. It seems

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to me, that these thinner tubes will take away some of

this stiffness.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is this correct, or is my thinking faulty ?

Quoted message said:

Faulty! Bigger tubes are stiffer even when thinner. I

have one

Quoted message said:

of those fat-tube steel bikes (Dedacciai Zero tubing) and

it

Quoted message said:

is super stiff even in 62cm.

Quoted message said:

I've got both an old school and a modern steel bike, and the new one "seems"

to handle

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

better at high speed. Part (or all) of the problem could

be the fact

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that I was 20 pounds lighter when the old steel bike

handled great.

Quoted message said:

Stiffness can affect high speed handling but the frame

geometry and

Quoted message said:

how you fit on the bike are also significant factors that

will

Quoted message said:

probably not be the same between your old & new bikes.

Quoted message said:

The new bike doesn't seem to mind that I've gone up a

shorts size.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My last question is about the "beer can" effect on steel

tubes. Are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

there any guesses on what the limit is for tube thickness

for steel

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bikes ?

No idea.

Tubes can be very thin indeed and still stand up to the loads of riding. But there's certainly a
prudent limit. Some Klein (Adroit?) frames are so thin you can flex the tubes with your hand, like a
beer can. I shudder to think about crashing one of these bikes on a pile of rocks. Road bikes aren't
as susceptible to such damage, especially racing bikes which are not workhorses. However, many
touring bikes still have old tube sets like Reynolds 531, because of its resistance to denting.
Touring bikes are more apt to be knocked over with bags full of gear, leaned against poles, etc.,
which could dent a really thin tube, whatever it's made of.

Matt O.

"Amit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"A Muzi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

And no, I do not think that tube outer diameter in and of itself is noticeable in a bicycle
frame. Stiffness variance among things you mention are IMHO below what a

rider can

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

feel.

That's not true. Though what you feel is the entire bicycle, not just the frame. You can certainly
see and hear (noises from rubbing) when your bike flexes and feel the effect on handling.

Newer bikes seem to be better designed with respect to geometry. I have seen some older bikes with
very strange geometry and poor handling.

I have seen many newer bikes with strange geometry and poor handling. The whole "compact frame" is a
joke for anyone over about 5'10." Super-short wheel bases are also unnecessary and make for a poor
climbing bike if you are an out-of-the-saddle climber like me. Current geometry is very strange for
most people. Like I'm going to pay +$1,500 for a TIG welded frame marked "XL"?

Anyway, my old custom SP frame from 1977 probably is as stiff as any steel frame currently on the
market, and I bet a stock Ron Cooper of 1975 (made of Reynolds 531) probably is too. IIRC, the
Cooper was very stiff for a '70s frame. These "old school" frames were relatively heavy, though.
Modern OS shaped tubing is lighter and as stiff, but it is not as resistant to mechanical injury and
is fussier to join. That is what you get for three to ten times the price of a mid-70s steel frame
-- lighter weight, TIG welding, threadless stems, too-short wheelbases and compact geometry. With
shaped OS tubing, you can also end up with flexibility in odd places like the TT/HT junction. Seems
like a step backwards to me -- except for the weight part. -- Jay Beattie.

Quoted message said:

"A Muzi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

And no, I do not think that tube outer diameter in and of itself is noticeable in a bicycle
frame. Stiffness variance among things you mention are IMHO below what a rider

can

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

feel.

"Amit" <[email hidden]> makes some good points in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

That's not true. Though what you feel is the entire bicycle, not just the frame. You can certainly
see and hear (noises from rubbing) when your bike flexes and feel the effect on handling.

Newer bikes seem to be better designed with respect to geometry. I have seen some older bikes with
very strange geometry and poor handling.

(am)> > The

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

classic style frame is of course faulted as a way of justifying the new bicycle, comfort be
damned.

(more Amit)> With regards to a bike frame I think stiffer is better, esp. with

Quoted message said:

regards to handling and it doesn't have anything to do with comfort. Comfort comes from the
position, tires, seat, possibly suspension, etc. I don't see an advantage to less stiffness.

Sorry to be unclear. I agree with Amit that frame stiffness is a good thing. It has no downside.

The concomitant changes in modern bikes like agressively short upright geometry and skinny tires
just get under my skin. Do you think you can feel small changes in frame stiffness among reasonable
frames, i.e., frames which do not rub the chainrings on the front changer when you stand up? I don't
think I can feel that. I do notice very high angles on short wheelbases with skinny tires and i do
not like that style a bit. There is a lot of noise in a bicycle test ride - everything right down to
tire pressure has some effect - I just don't happen to think frame material diamter and it's related
stiffness within a narrow range of product is all that noticeable unless it's grossly deficient.

--
Andrew Muzi yellowjersey.orgyellowjersey.orgOpen ↗ Open every day since 1 April 1971

"A Muzi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Often when riders claim a frame has "gone soft" what they mean is " my new bicycle is too damn
short and feels harsh" or ocasionally they mean ...

I questioned this until I heard rowers say the same thing about singles - that they go soft after a
few seasons.

Quoted message said:

I agree with Amit that frame stiffness is a good thing. It has no downside.

Maybe there will be in the future. The Honda CR250 went to an aluminum frame in 97 and it was too
stiff and thus hard to ride (for better riders than me anyway). I read that streetbikes had already
gone through the same thing.

Quoted message said:

Stiffness variance among things you mention are IMHO below what a rider can feel. Do you think you
can feel small changes in frame stiffness among reasonable frames .. ?

I haven't had very many roadbikes but when I got my third and then rode the second again I couldn't
believe how willowy it was. First bike was a miyata 912 (914?) which I broke the frame of after 6K
miles. So I picked up a bridgestone RB-2 which I noticed was significantly lighter. I rode it for a
few thousand miles and then bought a bontrager road lite, partly attracted by the ad which claimed
"you won't break -this- frame". I let my LBS talk me into a high-dollar carbon fork.

The first time I rode the bontrager down my local mountain, as I leaned into the first turn I
thought something was wrong. Then I realized that for the first time nothing was wrong. The bike was
keeping it's shape which I wasn't used to. After a few rides I rode the RB-2 down the mountain
again. It didn't want to turn. I had to lean it more and more and still I drifted towards the double
yellow line and wondered if the bike would make the turn.

After riding the RB-2 again many times down the mountain, I am quite used to the feeling now: after
I reach my maximum lean angle, the bike settles into a stable twist. The front wheel goes one way
and the rear goes the other, and I feel the whole bike settle into a stable position, wherein a
slight bump or twitch gets absorbed by a self-maintaining equilibrium.

Anybody else notice this?

Doug

You're thinking faulty. The larger diameters allow the tube to be both stiffer and stronger without
the need for as much metal.

Their strength lies in their design, not their mass (or lack of it). Just about all bike tubes have
larger diameters now, regardless of what they're made of for this very reason.

May you have the wind at your back. And a really low gear for the hills! Chris

Chris'Z Corner "The Website for the Common Bicyclist": geocities.comczcornerOpen ↗

(Chris Zacho 'The Wheelman') said:

You're thinking faulty. The larger diameters allow the tube to be both stiffer and stronger without
the need for as much metal.

Stiffer, yes - "stronger" depends on the definition you use. As the tube gets larger in diameter, it
actually gets much easier to damage even if the wall thickness remains the same. Make that wall even
thinner to save weight, and you end up with down tubes you can dent with a firm grip (yes, they're
out there). Whether or not these can be built into "stronger bikes" is a complex problem, and one
rife with multiple and sometimes contradictory definitions.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.comOpen ↗ Home of the $695 ti frame

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You're thinking faulty. The larger diameters allow the tube to be both stiffer and stronger
without the need for as much metal.

Stiffer, yes - "stronger" depends on the definition you use. As the tube gets larger in diameter,
it actually gets much easier to damage even if the wall thickness remains the same. Make that wall
even thinner to save weight, and you end up with down tubes you can dent with a firm grip (yes,
they're out there). Whether or not these can be built into "stronger bikes" is a complex problem,
and one rife with multiple and sometimes contradictory definitions.

...as evidenced by the arguments that I got into over on rec.bicycles.misc...

Mike