First TT!

Callas <[email hidden]> wrote:

: I took a wrong turn and lopped off about 1.5 miles.

D'oh! Still, I've done it as well.

: I have very limited ability to ride intensely - my aerobic limit is very
: high, but my intense riding limit is only marginally above that!

That's normal. Working on the ability to ride over your comfort zone is hard
and unpleasant. There's no great need to do it unless you race.

: All the other riders were hammering away and I simply couldn't put in
: that level of effort - I don't have the right muscles for it, ATM.

It's not muscles as such, it's lacate tolerance and mental. It hurts,
you know it hurts but you keep going anyway.

: Training todo: 5 mile intense rides with 15 minutes intervals.

I'd suggest

a) Ignore distance. What's that got to do with anything?
b) The intervals are too long to help with lactate tolerance.

Try this:

warm up for 20-30 mins. No more!
Ride slightly faster than your TT pace for 5 mins. The last minute
should be really, really, really, really hard.
Recover for 5.
Repeat three times

Work up to doing 5. If you find doing three sets easy to start
with you're not going hard enough.

Then reduce the time. Do 5x4 mins, but at a higher intensity. Then
5x3 mins. Then maybe two sets of 5x3 mins with a big rest in the
middle.

Don't do this more than once a week to start with.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune http://www.clune.org
"Technolibertarians make a philosophy out of a personality defect"
- Paulina Borsook

Callas said:

I did 8.3 miles in 22.30 minutes when I stopped.

Scary. Very, very scary. I beat my all-time PB last night and that was
a mere 26:54.

Zog The Undeniable said:

Callas said:

I did 8.3 miles in 22.30 minutes when I stopped.

Scary. Very, very scary. I beat my all-time PB last night and that was
a mere 26:54.

My slowest ever 10 was about 22:xx - without taking a short cut -
tandems are fun :-)

Still, it's good to see Callas actually managing to start a race, even
if he didn't quite finish it...

James
--
If I have seen further than others, it is
by treading on the toes of giants.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/

Quoted message said:

Zog The Undeniable said:

Callas wrote:

Quoted message said:

My slowest ever 10 was about 22:xx - without taking a short cut -
tandems are fun :-)

Youch! but surely you'd die on a hilly TT? very fast on the way down
for sure, but it wouldn't compensate on the average for the very slow
climb.

Quoted message said:

Still, it's good to see Callas actually managing to start a race, even
if he didn't quite finish it...

Something I omitted from the OP; my minute man aborted, so I had no one
to follow. If there'd been someone ahead, I might have taken the right
route. I might even have not stopped at the wrong place! 🙂

--
Callas

Callas said:

Youch! but surely you'd die on a hilly TT? very fast on the way down
for sure, but it wouldn't compensate on the average for the very slow
climb.

Heh. You're talking to half of the 2nd place team in the tandem club
hill climb championship of...um...about 1996ish. Not to mention
trailquest champs from 2000 (last year we were in the UK). And a stage
winner in the first TransRockies MTB race.

James

PS It's not so hard to get a placing when there are fewer entries than
podium places :-) Actually the last of those results was a genuine
contest against mixed pairs on single bikes. Tandems are _not_ slow up
hills unless the riders themselves are either slow or a poor team. A lot
depends on how much you ride together, and possibly the male/female
weight ratio.
--
If I have seen further than others, it is
by treading on the toes of giants.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/

Lardychap said:

So do you want a light girl or a heavy one?

I'm not looking right now, but thanks for the offer!

James
--
my other signature is wittier

James Annan said:

contest against mixed pairs on single bikes. Tandems are _not_ slow up
hills unless the riders themselves are either slow or a poor team. A
lot depends on how much you ride together, and possibly the
male/female weight ratio.

So do you want a light girl or a heavy one?

G - just checking...

in message <[email hidden]>, Callas

(') said:

Quoted message said:

Zog The Undeniable said:

Callas wrote:

Quoted message said:

My slowest ever 10 was about 22:xx - without taking a short cut -
tandems are fun :-)

Youch! but surely you'd die on a hilly TT? very fast on the way down
for sure, but it wouldn't compensate on the average for the very slow
climb.

I hate to tell you this, but tandems aren't just faster downhill,
they're faster on the flat and at least as fast uphill too. Twice the
power; pretty much the same rolling resistance, pretty much the same
aerodynamic drag, and (on a good tandem) _slightly_ better
power-to-weight ratio (because one good tandem weighs less than two
bikes).

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
; ... of course nothing said here will be taken notice of by
; the W3C. The official place to be ignored is on www-style or
; www-html. -- George Lund

Quoted message said:

Callas said:

Youch! but surely you'd die on a hilly TT? very fast on the way down
for sure, but it wouldn't compensate on the average for the very slow
climb.

Heh. You're talking to half of the 2nd place team in the tandem club
hill climb championship of...um...about 1996ish. Not to mention
trailquest champs from 2000 (last year we were in the UK). And a stage
winner in the first TransRockies MTB race.

Impressive, Mr.Bond 🙂

Quoted message said:

PS It's not so hard to get a placing when there are fewer entries than
podium places :-) Actually the last of those results was a genuine
contest against mixed pairs on single bikes. Tandems are _not_ slow up
hills unless the riders themselves are either slow or a poor team.

I'm still surprised. As I understand matters, weight is a larger factor
than the strength given by weight, when climbing. This is why light
riders zip up hills and heavy riders stagger up hills. A tandem, with
*two* riders, should surely be so much further down the wrong end of
that spectrum?

--
Callas

Quoted message said:

James Annan said:

contest against mixed pairs on single bikes. Tandems are _not_ slow up
hills unless the riders themselves are either slow or a poor team. A
lot depends on how much you ride together, and possibly the
male/female weight ratio.

So do you want a light girl or a heavy one?

How much for the pair? 🙂

--
Callas

Quoted message said:

([email hidden]'😉 wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Youch! but surely you'd die on a hilly TT? very fast on the way down
for sure, but it wouldn't compensate on the average for the very slow
climb.

Quoted message said:

I hate to tell you this, but tandems aren't just faster downhill,
they're faster on the flat and at least as fast uphill too. Twice the
power; pretty much the same rolling resistance, pretty much the same
aerodynamic drag, and (on a good tandem) _slightly_ better
power-to-weight ratio (because one good tandem weighs less than two
bikes).

Downhill, yes, on the flat, yes - in the same way that a big heavy
rider, with lots of weight and power, beats a light rider in those
situations.

But I still don't buy it uphill - despite the fact you lot are telling
me that's what you've seen =)

--
Callas

Callas said:

I'm still surprised. As I understand matters, weight is a larger factor
than the strength given by weight, when climbing. This is why light
riders zip up hills and heavy riders stagger up hills. A tandem, with
*two* riders, should surely be so much further down the wrong end of
that spectrum?

Nope, what matters is power-to-weight ratio. This is generally worse for
a heavier rider than a lighter one for various reasons, but two riders
together have basically the same p/w ratio as a single one of equal
physique.

It's possible for a tandem to go rather slowly if the team is not well
coordinated together, but that is far from inevitable...

James
--
If I have seen further than others, it is
by treading on the toes of giants.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/

Quoted message said:

Callas <[email hidden]> wrote:

: I took a wrong turn and lopped off about 1.5 miles.

D'oh! Still, I've done it as well.

My minute man aborted, so I had no one to follow. And when I rode the
circuit before the start, I didn't check my odometer, so I didn't notice
I'd only done 8.3 miles.

Quoted message said:

: All the other riders were hammering away and I simply couldn't put in
: that level of effort - I don't have the right muscles for it, ATM.

It's not muscles as such, it's lacate tolerance and mental. It hurts,
you know it hurts but you keep going anyway.

It seems to me to be muscles to a reasonable degree, as well as the
lacate and mental tolerance. When I was doing the ride, I was using the
muscles which begin above the knee and run up to about half way up the
thigh, on the inside front, much more than I normally do.

Quoted message said:

: Training todo: 5 mile intense rides with 15 minutes intervals.

I'd suggest

a) Ignore distance. What's that got to do with anything?

The training specification came from the guy who did a 21 minute ride;
he said, interval training, cycle half the distance you want to ride.

Quoted message said:

b) The intervals are too long to help with lactate tolerance.

Interesting.

Quoted message said:

Try this:

warm up for 20-30 mins. No more!
Ride slightly faster than your TT pace for 5 mins. The last minute
should be really, really, really, really hard.
Recover for 5.
Repeat three times

Work up to doing 5. If you find doing three sets easy to start
with you're not going hard enough.

Then reduce the time. Do 5x4 mins, but at a higher intensity. Then
5x3 mins. Then maybe two sets of 5x3 mins with a big rest in the
middle.

Don't do this more than once a week to start with.

Right. Deep breath! I'll try this today.

--
Callas

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Downhill, yes, on the flat, yes - in the same way that a big heavy
rider, with lots of weight and power, beats a light rider in those
situations.

But I still don't buy it uphill - despite the fact you lot are telling
me that's what you've seen =)

Think of it this way. Take two average people. One rides regularly and
has a "cycling" phsyique. The other is fit and healthy, but more
balanced out. They ride the same bikes. They weigh the same. Who will
make it up the hill first?

Weight is not the only factor in hill-climbing, power-to-weight ratio is
very important. A pair of riders who are regular cyclists will be
putting in more power than a single rider. The frame weighs more, but
not as much as two bikes. The aerodynamic drag is not much more than a
single rider.

And ignoring the science, I've tried hanging onto the back of tandem
going up a hill. I'm a pretty good climber and while heavier than I
would like to be, I'm not that weighty but I was steadily dropped. The
difference was that I was putting in a fair amount of effort, while to
tandemers were definately pottering!

Jon

Callas said:

But I still don't buy it uphill - despite the fact you lot are telling
me that's what you've seen =)

Tandems have no particular advantage or disadvantage uphill. However
this can make them look slow climbers when riding in a group, since the
team will be happily riding along with basically stronger single bikers
on the flat, and then drop back on a big climb. But it's not that their
speed up the hill is slow (for their basic ability) but rather that they
appear stronger than they really are on the flat.

At least, that is one plausible theory. Another is that the
stereotypical keen male cyclist captain notices that their climbing
speed is much lower than usual, but their part-time female stoker
doesn't like to admit that she is getting hauled up the hill faster than
she ever thought possible :-)

James
--
If I have seen further than others, it is
by treading on the toes of giants.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/

James Annan said:

Lardychap said:

So do you want a light girl or a heavy one?

I'm not looking right now, but thanks for the offer!

Sheesh. Even on the internet where no-one can tell you've a face like
a well-slapped bottom and I still can't pull a muscle.

G

Quoted message said:

Try this:

warm up for 20-30 mins. No more!
Ride slightly faster than your TT pace for 5 mins. The last minute
should be really, really, really, really hard.
Recover for 5.
Repeat three times

Right. Did that.

Conclusion: I *have* no sprint 🙂

When I sprint, I *slow down* 🙂

Well - it wasn't *quite* that bad, but it wasn't far off 🙂

The really really really really hard final minute amounted to pushing
hard but alas still in the same gear - I simply couldn't handle going up
a cog.

Second time I came to the final minute push it took a mental effort to
get going, but once you start, it's not bad.

Third time my final minute didn't amount to much - I hardly had any
sprint left.

Using up ones reserve of sprint had an interesting and revealing impact
upon the rest of the ride; I was very aware of my lack of power. If,
when spinning, the road gets difficult for a bit, normally, I'd just add
a little power to keep the speed up and then revert to aerobic spinning,
but that just wasn't really happening. Accelerating from slow to
cruising speed was effort.

Quoted message said:

Work up to doing 5. If you find doing three sets easy to start
with you're not going hard enough.

Yeah, no danger of that 🙂

Quoted message said:

Then reduce the time. Do 5x4 mins, but at a higher intensity. Then
5x3 mins. Then maybe two sets of 5x3 mins with a big rest in the
middle.

Don't do this more than once a week to start with.

That doesn't seem very often - I mean, once every three days maybe
instead - but I could see this taking more out of me than I'd expect.

Will see how I perform tommorow on a normal ride.

--
Callas

Lardychap said:

Sheesh. Even on the internet where no-one can tell you've a face like
a well-slapped bottom and I still can't pull a muscle.

Pull it all you want, none of us can see...

James
--
If I have seen further than others, it is
by treading on the toes of giants.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/

Callas <[email hidden]> wrote:

: The really really really really hard final minute amounted to pushing
: hard but alas still in the same gear - I simply couldn't handle going up
: a cog.

Ah. My mistake.

The aim isn't to pick up speed for the last minute, it's to pace the whole
three minutes such that the last minute is absolute agony. Like this one 🙂

To actually improve your sprint you'd be doing 20 second efforts. They
hurt even more.

: Second time I came to the final minute push it took a mental effort to
: get going, but once you start, it's not bad.

Usually the first interval is hard because you body isn't quite used to
it. The next is easier...

: Third time my final minute didn't amount to much - I hardly had any
: sprint left.

.....and then you get buggered 🙂

: Using up ones reserve of sprint had an interesting and revealing impact
: upon the rest of the ride; I was very aware of my lack of power. If,
: when spinning, the road gets difficult for a bit, normally, I'd just add
: a little power to keep the speed up and then revert to aerobic spinning,
: but that just wasn't really happening. Accelerating from slow to
: cruising speed was effort.
:

It's very interesting what happens once you've gone hard for a bit
isn't it! This is what you should feel like after a session like this.

This sounds like you got it basically right to me.

:> Don't do this more than once a week to start with.

: That doesn't seem very often - I mean, once every three days maybe
: instead - but I could see this taking more out of me than I'd expect.

See how fast you recover. The absolute requirement is that you must
be completely recovered before trying again. If you've not going as
hard/fast as the first time, wait longer.

Definately no more than twice a week though, and obviously a real TT
replaces one of the sessions.

After four weeks, have a week off, then start again, maybe with another
interval.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune http://www.clune.org
"Technolibertarians make a philosophy out of a personality defect"
- Paulina Borsook