Lighting systems

Thomps said:

Experience on standard/HID light systems?
I'm interested in a system sufficiently bright for riding roads and
established trails (no bushwhacking, or other sorts of whacking).

Depends on what you're looking for. You'll probably still find a lot
of "homebrewers" who insist paying $400 for a lighting system is
ridiculous, when you can cobble something together for under $100.

That said, I have nothing but the highest praise for the Lights &
Motion HID systems. The beam pattern is EXCELLENT, and they're the
brightest/best I've used.

I have also used the NightRider HID systems (I believe it's called the
Storm). It is a bit bulkier/heavier than the L&M, and it's darker. I
have both (L&M on helmet, Storm on my bars) but if I were buying a new
light I'd get another L&M for the handlebars.

I've also had some reliability issues with the NightRider system
(starter has gone bad twice on me), though NightRider has always been
good with warranty issues for me. It's a good product, it's just that
the L&M is outstanding.

Cheers,

-Bill

Thomps said:

Experience on standard/HID light systems? I'm interested in a
system sufficiently bright for riding roads and established trails
(no bushwhacking, or other sorts of whacking).

HID lights are like using a blowtorch for soldering something. There
are few situations in which I need such a bright light, indeed I find
lights that bright are problematic. They prevent dark-adaptation of
the retina by over-illuminating close surfaces.

For road riding, I have found nothing that is superior to my Schmidt
SON generator hub and Lumotec Oval lamp. While rated at 3 watts
nominal, it lights up the road better than most 10 watt halogen
battery powered systems. I've ridden literally all night long from
dusk to dawn with it, in both rural and urban areas. In urban areas
it's a bit washed out by streetlights and such; in dark urban areas it
really comes into its own. Lighting is ample for 40 mph twisty
descents. And it's nice to not have to worry about batteries on a 4
to 6 or more hour ride.

The lamp should be mounted low, just above the top of the tire, for
best coverage and contrast. The higher the lamp, the less effective
it is at showing the road surface- IMHO the bars are too high and
helmet mounts are just way out as a primary light source.

This system probably would not be good for trail riding where speeds
are often low enough to cause flickering. For that type of riding,
batteries make more sense than a generator, and more output may also
be helpful.

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Lighting systems
From: Tim McNamara

Quoted message said:

HID lights are like using a blowtorch for soldering something. There
are few situations in which I need such a bright light, indeed I find
lights that bright are problematic. They prevent dark-adaptation of
the retina by over-illuminating close surfaces.

A statement which is pointless, since you don't ride with an HID light (but
congratulations for having such excellent night vision). My experience with the
Light and Motion HID is that it's far superior to my previous Nite Rider, and
yeah, it's bright, but better to see and be seen, than not seen at all

.. >The lamp should be mounted low, just above the top of the tire, for

Quoted message said:

best coverage and contrast. The higher the lamp, the less effective
it is at showing the road surface

Gee, kinda like a candle?

Quoted message said:

For road riding, I have found nothing that is superior to my Schmidt
SON generator hub and Lumotec Oval lamp

Oh, methinks you should keep looking.....

sorry, I don't mean to offend, and I just couldn't resist a little poke in the
Ribs to ya, but HID sytems are awesome, and very much worth the $$$$$$ (ouch)

Tim McNamara said:

Thomps said:

Experience on standard/HID light systems? I'm interested in a
system sufficiently bright for riding roads and established trails
(no bushwhacking, or other sorts of whacking).

For road riding, I have found nothing that is superior to my Schmidt
SON generator hub and Lumotec Oval lamp.

I can name something; my Schmidt SON and Bisy FL lamp. :-)

But; the guy does plan to ride on trails, and while the setup I have is
superb for road riding, it's not ideal on the occasional impromptu
cyclocross expedition that poor navigation lands me on.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Distortion Field!

Dear Thomps.

I have run support for my daughter for a couple of years at the 24 hours of
Moab race and there is probably no better test of trail lighting systems.
Most riders use the NiteRider systems, partially because NiteRider supports
the riders with a truck full of computerized chargers and technicians to
keep everything up and running. Ignoring cost, the HID systems seem to be
the most desirable, both for brightness and long battery life. Even with
partial sponsorship, the HIDs are expensive enough that my daughter opted
for a dual halogen system with 3 of 4 settings to tailor the light and
battery life to what was needed. She topped it with a helmet-mounted Petzl
headlamp with a halogen bulb. Grinding slowly up hill vs. a fast technical
descent obviously have different needs. If you need to work on the bike, how
are you going to do it?

Having tried doing it on the cheap the first year, I can assure you that the
emotional state of the riders who suddenly found themselves in the dark in
the middle of the desert made it clear that having adequate professionally
made lighting was not just a good idea, but also an important safety and
survival consideration. Some kind of backup also is important as even the
best made system can still fail.

There is much discussion about whether it is better to have lights on the
bars or the helmet. Both seems to be the answer of those well-heeled enough
to afford it. There is a great link
http://grannygear.com/Skull/index.php3?thread=8 on the Granny Gear 24 Hours
of Moab site discussing all matters of lighting, especially light placement.
FYI The course consists of a mix of terrain from rough steep and rocky
ascents and descents to fast sandy descents punctuated by the occasional
boulder section, not to mention winding through some fairly tight pinon pine
forest. Depending on skill, condition, and mechanical problems, laps last
from just under an hour to 4 hours.

"Thomps" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Experience on standard/HID light systems?
I'm interested in a system sufficiently bright for riding roads and
established trails (no bushwhacking, or other sorts of whacking).

Thanks all.

Thomps.

(Mrvongole) said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Lighting systems From: Tim McNamara

Quoted message said:

HID lights are like using a blowtorch for soldering something.
There are few situations in which I need such a bright light, indeed
I find lights that bright are problematic. They prevent
dark-adaptation of the retina by over-illuminating close surfaces.

A statement which is pointless, since you don't ride with an HID
light (but congratulations for having such excellent night
vision). My experience with the Light and Motion HID is that it's
far superior to my previous Nite Rider, and yeah, it's bright, but
better to see and be seen, than not seen at all

Gee, sorry to have offended you by stating something different than
what you think. My night vision is about average, actually. It takes
about 45 minutes for the retina to become dark adapted, and the overly
bright illumination of near objects with high-powered lights prevents
good dark-adaptation. That parodoxically makes it harder to see,
leaving you always wanting more light.

"Superior" has to be defined somehow- how are you defining it?
Illumination coverage of the road? Oncoming cars flashing their
brights at you because you're making it hard for them to see the road?
Length of useable ride time? I saw lots of high powered lights at PBP
this year, and my system provided much better illumination to ride by
than theirs. I heard a lot of complaints from riders of eye fatigue
from trying to see up the road outside of a circle of intensely bright
light. With my light, I could see up the road, see the edges of the
road, and could ride for 8 hours at night with no problems seeing.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The lamp should be mounted low, just above the top of the tire, for
best coverage and contrast. The higher the lamp, the less effective
it is at showing the road surface

Gee, kinda like a candle?

WTF are you on about? This is simple optics for a point source
focused beam. That is not analogous to a candle.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

For road riding, I have found nothing that is superior to my Schmidt
SON generator hub and Lumotec Oval lamp

Oh, methinks you should keep looking.....

No, thanks. I've looked at all the available options in the past 18
months in preparation for PBP and tried most of them. The system I
have is the best for my needs. It's not affected by weather, has
negligible drag, adds much less weight than a HID or high powered
halogen battery light system, provides excellent illumination and can
be used all night without thinking about batteries. Some of the
high-powered systems would have required me to have four or five
batteries to get through the night! If I was riding for only 60
minutes in the dark, some of the other options might be acceptable.

Quoted message said:

sorry, I don't mean to offend, and I just couldn't resist a little
poke in the Ribs to ya, but HID sytems are awesome, and very much
worth the $$$$$$ (ouch)

Perhaps with the $$$$$$ to you, not to me. The overly bright light
making it paradoxically harder to see, less illumination coverage,
lack of a reasonable run time without carrying spare batteries,
excessive weight, and causing visibility problems for other road users
make HID and high powered halogen systems a no-go for me. Even if the
price was the same, I'd have bought the system I bought.

David Damerell said:

Tim McNamara said:

Thomps said:

Experience on standard/HID light systems? I'm interested in a
system sufficiently bright for riding roads and established trails
(no bushwhacking, or other sorts of whacking).

For road riding, I have found nothing that is superior to my Schmidt
SON generator hub and Lumotec Oval lamp.

I can name something; my Schmidt SON and Bisy FL lamp. :-)

I didn't like the BiSY's beam pattern- too focused to the center
without enough illumination to the sides of the road. I prefer the
Lumotec's more gentle and broader light pattern.

Quoted message said:

But; the guy does plan to ride on trails, and while the setup I have
is superb for road riding, it's not ideal on the occasional
impromptu cyclocross expedition that poor navigation lands me on.

I wasn't sure what he meant by "established trails" e.g., established
single track or a paved trail or a canal towpath or... Hence my
caveat about this not being a good system for off-road use.

On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:05:18 -0500, "Thomps" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Experience on standard/HID light systems?
I'm interested in a system sufficiently bright for riding roads and
established trails (no bushwhacking, or other sorts of whacking).

"Sufficiently bright" is a matter of opinion and visual acuity.

HID lights tend to be much brighter, and far more expensive, than
others. I have yet to find an inexpensive (as in, under US$40)
conventional (halogen or otherwise) bike headlight that provides
enough brilliance to allow me to to see small obstacles clearly on
typical Houston city streets at speeds of 10mph or more. None throw
enough luight to illuminate potholes and bumps adequately in my
personal opinion. Some HID headlamps throw more than enough light,
but I have less need for night riding capability than I have need for
their cost elsewhere, so I haven't bought one.

If I had the need and budget, HID with a rechargable battery pack
would be my choice.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
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Werehatrack said:

On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:05:18 -0500, "Thomps" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Experience on standard/HID light systems? I'm interested in a
system sufficiently bright for riding roads and established trails
(no bushwhacking, or other sorts of whacking).

"Sufficiently bright" is a matter of opinion and visual acuity.

HID lights tend to be much brighter, and far more expensive, than
others. I have yet to find an inexpensive (as in, under US$40)
conventional (halogen or otherwise) bike headlight that provides
enough brilliance to allow me to to see small obstacles clearly on
typical Houston city streets at speeds of 10mph or more. None throw
enough luight to illuminate potholes and bumps adequately in my
personal opinion.

Huh. And I find a 3 watt system adequate for riding from dusk to dawn
at speeds of up to 35 mph downhill. Go figure. I don't think it's
about visual acuity, though- I wear glasses and have 20/400 vision and
have no trouble seeing at night with my setup (Schmidt hub and Lumotec
Oval lamp). I discussed the issue as I see it (no pun intended) in
another post.

I'm curious as to where your headlight(s) is(are) mounted on your bike
or person. As I mentioned in another post, a low mounting (at the
fork crown, or even lower) is beneficial in bringing out the texture
of the road surface. Jan Heine mounted his lamp at the front axle,
much lower than mine. The French tended to mount the lamps on a rack
below the top of the tire or on the very front of the front fender,
but most riders no longer use fenders or front racks.

Tim McNamara said:

Werehatrack said:

"Sufficiently bright" is a matter of opinion and visual acuity.

HID lights tend to be much brighter, and far more expensive, than
others. I have yet to find an inexpensive (as in, under US$40)
conventional (halogen or otherwise) bike headlight that provides
enough brilliance to allow me to to see small obstacles clearly on
typical Houston city streets at speeds of 10mph or more. None throw
enough luight to illuminate potholes and bumps adequately in my
personal opinion.

Huh. And I find a 3 watt system adequate for riding from dusk to dawn
at speeds of up to 35 mph downhill. Go figure. I don't think it's
about visual acuity, though- I wear glasses and have 20/400 vision and
have no trouble seeing at night with my setup (Schmidt hub and Lumotec
Oval lamp). I discussed the issue as I see it (no pun intended) in
another post.

It's a YMMV issue for a lot of reasons.

Quoted message said:

I'm curious as to where your headlight(s) is(are) mounted on your bike
or person. As I mentioned in another post, a low mounting (at the
fork crown, or even lower) is beneficial in bringing out the texture
of the road surface. Jan Heine mounted his lamp at the front axle,
much lower than mine. The French tended to mount the lamps on a rack
below the top of the tire or on the very front of the front fender,
but most riders no longer use fenders or front racks.

I started with the light mounted above the handlebar, added a second
unit below it at a shallower angle and got to the point that I could
stop within the lit distance at moderately liesurely paces even when
there was loose gravel present (which is a lot of the time around
here), but no better than that.

I also have a Puch with a generator light that's mounted beside the
top of the front wheel; it doesn't do any better.

Part of the problem here is the wild variance in ambient darkness
levels and paving hue; we have a seemingly mix of patched asphalt,
patched concrete, potholes that appear *lighter* than the surrounding
surface, and (of course) random debris. To make matters worse, too
many of the local car drivers seem to have aimed their headlights high
enough to read street signs with, and there are very few places where
there's no automotive traffic present.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Werehatrack said:

Tim McNamara said:

Werehatrack said:

"Sufficiently bright" is a matter of opinion and visual acuity.

HID lights tend to be much brighter, and far more expensive, than
others. I have yet to find an inexpensive (as in, under US$40)
conventional (halogen or otherwise) bike headlight that provides
enough brilliance to allow me to to see small obstacles clearly on
typical Houston city streets at speeds of 10mph or more. None
throw enough luight to illuminate potholes and bumps adequately in
my personal opinion.

Huh. And I find a 3 watt system adequate for riding from dusk to
dawn at speeds of up to 35 mph downhill. Go figure. I don't think
it's about visual acuity, though- I wear glasses and have 20/400
vision and have no trouble seeing at night with my setup (Schmidt
hub and Lumotec Oval lamp). I discussed the issue as I see it (no
pun intended) in another post.

It's a YMMV issue for a lot of reasons.

Yeah, to an extent anyway. More to do with ambient lighting
conditions I suspect than visual acuity. Although some people do
indeed have better night vision than others, most people never have a
chance to fully dark-adapt except when they're trying to sleep.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm curious as to where your headlight(s) is(are) mounted on your
bike or person. As I mentioned in another post, a low mounting (at
the fork crown, or even lower) is beneficial in bringing out the
texture of the road surface. Jan Heine mounted his lamp at the
front axle, much lower than mine. The French tended to mount the
lamps on a rack below the top of the tire or on the very front of
the front fender, but most riders no longer use fenders or front
racks.

I started with the light mounted above the handlebar, added a second
unit below it at a shallower angle and got to the point that I could
stop within the lit distance at moderately liesurely paces even when
there was loose gravel present (which is a lot of the time around
here), but no better than that.

I also have a Puch with a generator light that's mounted beside the
top of the front wheel; it doesn't do any better.

Interesting! I would have expected this to do significnatly better,
from my experience at least.

Quoted message said:

Part of the problem here is the wild variance in ambient darkness
levels and paving hue; we have a seemingly mix of patched asphalt,
patched concrete, potholes that appear *lighter* than the
surrounding surface, and (of course) random debris.

Such features make it difficult to extract adequate information from
the road surface, even during the day in some cases. Fortunately our
roads seem to be in somewhat better repair (most of the time- there
are some exceptions).

Quoted message said:

To make matters worse, too many of the local car drivers seem to
have aimed their headlights high enough to read street signs with,
and there are very few places where there's no automotive traffic
present.

I call 'em "owl hunting lights." The light shining in your eyes
interferes with night vision. I find it easier to see out on rural
roads at night where there is a minimum of street lights, headlights,
etc.

Tim McNamara said:

Werehatrack said:

I also have a Puch with a generator light that's mounted beside the
top of the front wheel; it doesn't do any better.

Interesting! I would have expected this to do significnatly better,
from my experience at least.

I wonder what sort of headlamp he's using. In my experience, the
variation in lamp optics is more important than the variation in
generator output.

The first generator I used had lousy optics, but it was a salvage store
cheapie. The better one that followed also had lousy optics. When I
replaced its lamp with a better one, things really began working for me.

Regarding the HID fans, especially those who advocate them for road use:
is there _any_ level of light output that you'd call "too bright"?

I get the feeling that some cyclists are in some sort of a lumen war,
and would use nuclear-powered aircraft landing lights if only they'd fit
on their bike. To me, there _is_ such a thing as overkill!

--
--------------------+
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com,
replace with cc.ysu dot edu]

Frank Krygowski said:

I get the feeling that some cyclists are in some sort of a lumen war,
and would use nuclear-powered aircraft landing lights if only they'd fit
on their bike. To me, there _is_ such a thing as overkill!

Something with a light output that makes it capable of heating the
back of the neck of the driver of the pickup that nearly ran me off
the road would be just about adequate. Preferably "heating to the
point of flash vaporization".

Seriously, though, I have (by short-term experiment) concluded that
for me, in my local conditions, the output of a 60W halogen bulb,
given a suitable reflector and lens, is adequate. That's enough to
even out and adequately supplement the lighting in the areas where
streetlights destroy night vision while failing to illuminate road
details, and it's more than adequate for areas where there's no light
to begin with.

Oddly enough, the typical automotive headlamp bulb uses about 60W.
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Quoted message said:

...areas where streetlights destroy night vision
while failing to illuminate road details...

Couldn't have said it better, and that is why I use my L&M Arc HID almost exclusively when riding in urban settings. As others have said, decent range from the central beam pattern, AND a bright and wide enough spill area to help when turning. I run on the low power setting 95% of the time for a little (very little) extra battery life, and the lower illumination level is not dramatic. I also have older Cateye and Nite Rider HIDs, but greatly prefer the L&M Arc beam pattern.

I've also been playing with one of the new ~3 watt Performance/Night Hawk LED units in more remote areas with lower ambient light levels as it's feeble by comparison to the HIDs, and way to focused to provide much sense of trailside detail or be of any real help on turns.

I don't buy into any of the bar OR helmet mount arguments. If you're going to ride extensively at night it's really nice to have BOTH, if for no other reason than backup. I use Nite Rider Digital Evolution and L&M Solo Logic halogen units on my helmets rather than HIDs, as I like the the "instant on" extra range and directable beam they provide when desired.

I have used hub and "BB mount" generators in the past, with a variety of lightheads, and can understand their attraction for something like PBP IF you can live with their light output, but I'm old and simply need more light than they can offer now.

John

Werehatrack said:

Seriously, though, I have (by short-term experiment) concluded that
for me, in my local conditions, the output of a 60W halogen bulb,
given a suitable reflector and lens, is adequate. That's enough to
even out and adequately supplement the lighting in the areas where
streetlights destroy night vision while failing to illuminate road
details, and it's more than adequate for areas where there's no light
to begin with.

Oddly enough, the typical automotive headlamp bulb uses about 60W.

Seriously???

My BMW motorcycle has a 55 watt halogen bulb. I ride it at night on two
lane roads at 55 mph and feel adequately safe.

My bicycles typically have three watt bulbs, well focused, and are
almost always perfectly adequate. I've _never_ wanted more than six
watts, well focused.

--
--------------------+
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com,
replace with cc.ysu dot edu]