How Would Suspension Help?

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

So what's the advice of the FOAK? Is it essential that the fork be from
the same manufacturer as the bike? I see that Bikkel does have some
suspended models but there does not seem to be a weight configuration
option.
Is there a conflict between a suspended fork and the hub dynamo light
and roller brake configuration that I have?
Does suspension make the difference that I want it to make?
What is the effect of suspending just the seat-post, or just the front
fork? Do they have to be done together?
Thanks for your thoughts. I will of course also speak to Bethie's dealer
and ask him about costs and options.

Keep in mind that cheap suspension does very little for you and adds unecessary
weight to your bike. Unless you can buy a good fork, read big bucks, it is
not worth it. You may want to check your tires and drop the pressure a bit.
Also, if you have really skinny tires, a fatter tire that will let you run
a lower pressure will also help. Same thing applies to the seatpost. I
would not bother.
---------------
Alex

Elisa Francesca Roselli said:

You all remember my long tribulations with my beautiful Dutch bike,
Behemoth. She is an upright comfort bike with a 7 speed Nexus hub
shifter, a hub dynamo and roller brakes (

http://www.bikkelbikes.com/images/bikes/bikes_groot/popup_groot/neerhem-d.jpg

Quoted message said:

). It was extremely difficult to shop for her, because there are
practically no bikes with this kind of configuration being sold here
in Paris..........

Quoted message said:

Behemoth is riding much better now that the headset issue has been
sorted. But I begin to notice a problem on bumpy roads. .....

On a day to day level, this problem doesn't arise, since the ride to
work is a paltry 1.5 km. However, the few times I have attempted
longer rides, I have found myself increasingly phobic of road-bumps
and pot-holes. ..................

Quoted message said:

Is there a conflict between a suspended fork and the hub dynamo light
and roller brake configuration that I have?

No.

Quoted message said:

Does suspension make the difference that I want it to make?

It might. But it needs to be fairly short-travel designed for road use
suspension.

Good suspension is often expensive.

Quoted message said:

What is the effect of suspending just the seat-post, or just the front
fork? Do they have to be done together?

They can be done separately.

I would start with the seat - possibly trying a saddle with springs unless
you are particularly fond of the saddle you currently own, rather than a
sprung seat post.
eg:
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/?ProductID=5360007950
http://www.sjscycles.com/store/vIndex.htm?item1865.htm
(Brooks saddles are a peculiarly British thing - people seem to love or
loathe them. It seems that if you suit them, its hard to do better, but not
everyone suits them. With Brooks models, research carefully as many models
only suit old-fashioned seat posts, not modern single-rail fittings).

I would also look at the tyres fitted to Bethie - generally larger section
tyres can be more forgiving of bumps/vibration provided they are to the
correct pressure for the rider. Given the style of Bethie (upright), I
expect there is less weight on the front than rear, therefore would run a
lower front pressure.
Sheldon Brown's website has some suggestions on where to start with tyre
pressures.

If Bethie is as per the picture you provided in the link, the front forks
look very straight. Classically, UK forks are curved. I don't know if curved
forks reduce vibrations better than straight.
eg: a timeless (some might say excessively old fashioned) UK traditional
bike with curved forks:
http://www.pashley.co.uk/products/classic/princess_classic/splash.html
(Also notice that this "traditional ladies comfort" bike has a sprung Brooks
saddle. )

Quoted message said:

Thanks for your thoughts. I will of course also speak to Bethie's
dealer and ask him about costs and options.

- Nigel

--
NC - Webmaster for http://www.2mm.org.uk/
Replies to newsgroup postings to the newsgroup please.

Elisa Francesca Roselli said:

You all remember my long tribulations with my beautiful Dutch bike,
Behemoth. She is an upright comfort bike with a 7 speed Nexus hub
shifter, a hub dynamo and roller brakes (

http://www.bikkelbikes.com/images/bikes/bikes_groot/popup_groot/neerhem-d.jp
g

Quoted message said:

). It was extremely difficult to shop for her, because there are
practically no bikes with this kind of configuration being sold here
in Paris.

When I bought Bethie, the issue of suspension did indeed come up.
Rival models, including the Giant Energy 7, could have been ordered
with suspended front forks and seat-posts. But I decided against it
for two reasons. First, I had a great deal of trouble with my balance,
aggravated on Behemoth by the fact that her headset was initially
screwed on too tight. Whenever I had occasion to try a suspended model
of bike, the bouncy, squishy feeling perturbed me further and I
concluded that balancing would be even harder. Secondly, I'm very
heavy, well over 100 kg, and I had heard that suspension could not be
used by very fat people.

<snippage>

I've ridden a friend's shopping / town style bike (Ridgeback Nova) off road
a few times. It's got a suspension seatpost, and it makes for a comfortable
ride IMO. No reason for you not to put one on your existing bike. As for
suspension forks, my MTB has some cheapo RST ones fitted. There doesn't seem
to be much appreciable difference riding my friend's town bike (steel forks)
and my mountain bike in terms of bumps coming through to your wrists. This
might have something to do with the fact that on the MTB more of the rider's
weight is on the handlebars of course. As for weight - there are plenty of
100kilo blokes riding mountain bikes, so suspension should be pretty strong.

in message <[email hidden]>, Elisa Francesca

Roselli (') said:

You all remember my long tribulations with my beautiful Dutch bike,
Behemoth. She is an upright comfort bike with a 7 speed Nexus hub
shifter, a hub dynamo and roller brakes (

When I bought Bethie, the issue of suspension did indeed come up.
Rival models, including the Giant Energy 7, could have been ordered
with suspended front forks and seat-posts. But I decided against it
for two reasons. First, I had a great deal of trouble with my balance,
aggravated on Behemoth by the fact that her headset was initially
screwed on too tight. Whenever I had occasion to try a suspended model
of bike, the bouncy, squishy feeling perturbed me further and I
concluded that balancing would be even harder. Secondly, I'm very
heavy, well over 100 kg, and I had heard that suspension could not be
used by very fat people.

Air suspension forks can easily be adjusted for the weight of the rider
simply by pumping them up harder. Suspension units with metal springs
can be adjusted by using a firmer spring - almost all makers of
suspension forks make a range of springs of different firmness for
different weights of rider. And many adult men who ride mountain bikes
- including downhill mountain bikes where the strain on the forks is
particularly high - are as heavy as you are. So you can be confident
that you can get forks which are strong enough for you. Whether they
would actually be useful to you I can't say - the strongest forks are
the long-travel downhill forks, which might feel amazingly wallowy on a
road bike.

Quoted message said:

So what's the advice of the FOAK? Is it essential that the fork be
from the same manufacturer as the bike?

No, not at all. Most of the (good) forks are made by specialist
manufacturers of components. Virtually the only bike manufacturer which
actually makes most of their own suspension forks is Cannondale. Good
fork brands include Fox, Manitou, Marzzochi.

Quoted message said:

I see that Bikkel does have
some suspended models but there does not seem to be a weight
configuration option.

Is there a conflict between a suspended fork and the hub dynamo light
and roller brake configuration that I have?

Almost certainly. I'm not aware of any suspension fork with fitments for
a roller brake, although disk brake mounts might be adapted.
Alternatively, you could just fit disk brakes.

Quoted message said:

Does suspension make the difference that I want it to make?

I doubt it, frankly. For road bike suspension you want relatively
limited travel (50mm) whereas most of the strong adjustable suspension
forks are long travel (150mm or even greater). The bike is likely to
show a considerable amount of 'pedal bob', where the front suspension
bobs in time with the pedalling. This is inefficient. However, there
are a few suspension forks manufactured with limited travel
specifically for road bikes and you may be able to get one of these
fitted with an appropriate spring for your weight (or, if it's an air
unit, just pump it up).

Quoted message said:

What is the effect of suspending just the seat-post, or just the front
fork? Do they have to be done together?

They don't have to be done together. Generally, the more weight you
place on your hands, the more benefit you'll feel from suspension
forks. The more you place on your bottom, the more benefit you'll feel
from a seatpost. My guess is that with the relatively upright riding
position of Behemoth, you will be better off with a seat post.

The Cane Creek 'thudbuster' suspension seatpost is available with
different elastomers to suit people of different weights, see
<URL:http://www.canecreek.com/site/product/seatpost/04_elas.html> (I'm
sure other good makes are too). I would advise you to start with a
suspension seatpost with the firmest spring or elastomer setting and
experiment from there. A seatpost will be substantially cheaper than
forks.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

There are no messages. The above is just a random stream of
bytes. Any opinion or meaning you find in it is your own creation.

Interesting, 'cause just yesterday I was riding on an urban trail, on my
Cannondale, with front suspension, and a suspension seatpost. I came up
behind a lady who was riding a bike without suspension. Every time she came
to a bump or undulation in the pavement, she lifted her weight off the seat.
I have not done this nearly as much since I got onto a suspension bike, but
I did not realize it until I rode behind her. Improvements tend to fade
from your consciousness.

Quoted message said:

I came up
behind a lady who was riding a bike without suspension. Every time she came
to a bump or undulation in the pavement, she lifted her weight off the seat.
I have not done this nearly as much since I got onto a suspension bike, but
I did not realize it until I rode behind her. Improvements tend to fade
from your consciousness.

She likes feeling the bumps, dude....:-D

Thanks to all who helped me with this query. I summarize my present course of
action as:

1) Slightly reduce tyre pressure (it's true that I have only recently repumped
Bethie's tyres and that they are well over 4.5 Bars).
2) Explore the market for suspended seatposts
3) Explore the market for quality suspended front forks for road and city bikes
that are compatible with roller brakes, if these exist.

I already have a sprung saddle that I adore, a Velo VL-266. Bethie came with a
San Marco saddle that everyone says is a great saddle, but I hate it. I switched
it round with the Velo that I had been using on Myrtille.

Peter Clinch wrote:

<<And another difference is that suspension uses cheap tat
and Suspension costs Actual Money as good engineering is required and
isn't generally cheap.>>

I know it will cost money and am thinking in terms of long-term investment. Since
Bethie has been rehabilitated with the correction of her headset problem, I am
disburdened from the problem of finding a new bike. I'm hoping she and I will be
together for a long time. Improvements can be made slowly, as and when. But she
deserves the best.

<<Suspension done properly means the wheels move over bumps without moving
the rider. It makes the bike more efficient and, crucially, easier to
control because the steered wheel follows the road rather than taking
off over bumps. Suspension done badly absorbs bumps but bounces back
without proper damping and may actually reduce your control level,
albeit with less nasty bumps for your wrists. I think you'll be wanting
the former.>>

That is exactly the effect I want. It's worth putting in the research to make
sure it is done properly.

Simon Brooke wrote:

<<I'm not aware of any suspension fork with fitments for
a roller brake, although disk brake mounts might be adapted.
Alternatively, you could just fit disk brakes.>>

That would be a significant negative point. The Utopia bike I tested in Paris did
indeed have disk brakes. They were fantastic - so smooth, strong and gentle you
didn't even notice you were using them. But I love Bethie's roller brakes too,
and they are supposedly the most rainproof and maintenance free kind of brake. I
wouldn't want to have to make an expensive modification to these excellent brakes
just to modify the fork.

<<Generally, the more weight you
place on your hands, the more benefit you'll feel from suspension
forks. The more you place on your bottom, the more benefit you'll feel
from a seatpost.>>

I could benefit from both, to be sure, but I do have this sore wrist problem that
really does kick in on longer voyages. That's probably coming from poor riding
style, and I do try to practice sitting more on my ass. But if I had to commute
to HQ I'd have a worry over Carpal Tunnel Syndrome going rampant sooner than I
could help it.

Thanks again to all. There's plenty here to get started with.

EFR
Ile de France

Elisa Francesca Roselli said:

Thanks to all who helped me with this query. I summarize my present course of
action as:

Sorry I didn't have anything useful to add. Good luck with your
quest. Hopefully you won't mind helping me.

Quoted message said:

But I love Bethie's roller brakes too, and they are supposedly the
most rainproof and maintenance free kind of brake. I wouldn't want
to have to make an expensive modification to these excellent brakes
just to modify the fork.

How well do you find roller brakes work? Do they have bite to their
action or are they spongy? Can you brake hard with them? I tend to
brake late and quite hard, so I'd want something with a positive
action. I'm tempted to fit a roller brake when I get a hub dynamo for
winter.

Quoted message said:

I could benefit from both, to be sure, but I do have this sore wrist
problem that really does kick in on longer voyages. That's probably
coming from poor riding style, and I do try to practice sitting more
on my ass. But if I had to commute to HQ I'd have a worry over
Carpal Tunnel Syndrome going rampant sooner than I could help it.

Hopefully once you're more relaxed on the bike, your hands will loosen
up and all will improve. If you've got swept back handlebars, I'm not
sure that they're the best for it, though. My mum has hand problems of
a similar nature and has swept back handlebars.

A

Leo Lichtman said:

Every time she came
to a bump or undulation in the pavement, she lifted her weight off the seat.
I have not done this nearly as much since I got onto a suspension bike, but
I did not realize it until I rode behind her. Improvements tend to fade
from your consciousness.

If it's faded from your consciousness, then the improvement attempt
has, indeed, been successful.
--
Rick Onanian

Quoted message said:

sorted. But I begin to notice a problem on bumpy roads. I try to avoid
the bumps so as not to get my bones ground. If I can't, I try to coast
over them, putting more weight on my feet and using my knees for the
suspension. But if I am going fast downhill, this means that I have to
stop pedalling. Restarting to pedal is an issue because I'm spinning out
and, once again, this perturbs my balance.

Restarting to pedal should be easy; simply wait until you're going
slow enough to not spin out, or, pedal slowly without feeling any
resistance, or, shift into a higher gear (if available). You aren't
required to pedal and accelerate all the time.

Quoted message said:

1) Slightly reduce tyre pressure (it's true that I have only recently

Also, explore the market for wider tires.

NC said:

If Bethie is as per the picture you provided in the link, the front forks
look very straight. Classically, UK forks are curved. I don't know if curved
forks reduce vibrations better than straight.

Such a change in the fork will alter the geometry, resulting in a
change in handling. Elisa has had much trouble getting the bike to
be stable; it may be a good idea to avoid fooling with the geometry
now.

In fact, that goes for a suspension fork, too. A suspension fork
will definitely result in altering the geometry of your bike. Keep
this in mind, and ask what you can expect before you make any
changes. It might be good to ask on rec.bicycles.tech. The folks
there know a whole lot about how geometry affects ride.
--
Rick Onanian

Rick Onanian said:

A suspension fork
will definitely result in altering the geometry of your bike. Keep
this in mind, and ask what you can expect before you make any
changes. It might be good to ask on rec.bicycles.tech. The folks
there know a whole lot about how geometry affects ride.

Thanks, Rick, good advice.

EFR
Ile de France

Ambrose Nankivell said:

How well do you find roller brakes work? Do they have bite to their
action or are they spongy? Can you brake hard with them? I tend to
brake late and quite hard, so I'd want something with a positive
action. I'm tempted to fit a roller brake when I get a hub dynamo for
winter.

I love the brakes. So far (touch wood) they have never pitched me over the
handlebars, as Myrtille did as soon as I had her fitted with new V-brakes. The
action is progressive but responsive and powerful. I can brake hard, although
personally I'm the opposite of you - brake early not to say all the time! ;°> They
are used on tandems because they are strong, and on Dutch city bikes because they
are unaffected by weather. I believe they are the only brake that doesn't mind
getting wet.

The biggest drawback is that I think these are perhaps the heaviest kind of brake.
They are in part responsible for the lumbering weight of Dutch type bikes. My dealer
says they are much better than V-brakes in every respect except this, and that this
is the reason they are never used on good mountain bikes where lightness is an
important consideration.

Hope that helps.

EFR
Ile de France

Elisa Francesca Roselli said:

jumped to its death from her front basket - and I was afraid of losing
control over the pot holes, of which there were many. Also, to avoid the
potholes I would try to veer out round them and I realize this is
dangerous with cars behind me that might be trying to overtake.

If these pot-holes are near the side of the road can you ride further
out into the road? This would be much safe than veering around them.
If the pot-holes are all over the road you will need to talk to
whichever organisation maintains the roads (presumably Paris City
Council) to try and get them to fill them in.

--
Andy Leighton => [email hidden]
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_

Elisa Francesca Roselli said:

[...summary of suspension suggestions and tire pressure adjustments
snipped...]

Simon Brooke wrote:

[...snip about roller vs. disc brakes...]

<<Generally, the more weight you place on your hands, the more
benefit you'll feel from suspension forks. The more you place on
your bottom, the more benefit you'll feel from a seatpost.>>

I could benefit from both, to be sure, but I do have this sore wrist
problem that really does kick in on longer voyages. That's probably
coming from poor riding style, and I do try to practice sitting more
on my ass. But if I had to commute to HQ I'd have a worry over
Carpal Tunnel Syndrome going rampant sooner than I could help it.

A good set of gloves with gel pads in the heel of the hand, with a
gel-free "canal" over the ulnar nerve area, may make a tremendous
difference in how your hands feel. I use a cheapo pair of gel gloves
from the local discount sporting goods store, and those do well enough
for me, but if you already have problems, you might well look into
buying a better-engineered pair, such as Specialized's Body Geometry
gloves. They go for $25-$30US per pair, IIRC. The difference between
riding gloveless and riding with gloves is like night and day--the gel
soaks up much of the road vibrations that would otherwise be
transmitted into your hands.

--
Chris BeHanna
Software Engineer (Remove "allspammersmustdie" before responding.)
[email hidden]
I was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs.

Chris BeHanna said:

The difference between
riding gloveless and riding with gloves is like night and day--the gel
soaks up much of the road vibrations that would otherwise be
transmitted into your hands.

Thanks for this tip. I do in fact have a nice pair of gloves with gel pads over
the ulnar nerve. I keep them in the front basket but so far have practically
never worn them! I think of them as a cold-weather expeditive for days when my
hands are practically sticking to the handlebars with frost - and with all this
global warming it never gets that cold anymore in these parts.

I even get sore hands on my exercise bike in front of the TV. What I shall
experiment with first is wearng the gloves during TV hour to see if they help
there. That might be more conclusive than the little daytime trips on the real
bike.

EFR
Ile de France

In article <[email hidden]>,

Elisa Francesca Roselli said:

Chris BeHanna said:

The difference between
riding gloveless and riding with gloves is like night and day--the gel
soaks up much of the road vibrations that would otherwise be
transmitted into your hands.

Thanks for this tip. I do in fact have a nice pair of gloves with gel pads over
the ulnar nerve. I keep them in the front basket but so far have practically
never worn them! I think of them as a cold-weather expeditive for days when my
hands are practically sticking to the handlebars with frost - and with all this
global warming it never gets that cold anymore in these parts.

I even get sore hands on my exercise bike in front of the TV. What I shall
experiment with first is wearng the gloves during TV hour to see if they help
there. That might be more conclusive than the little daytime trips on the real
bike.

EFR
Ile de France

In article <[email hidden]>,

Elisa Francesca Roselli said:

Thanks for this tip. I do in fact have a nice pair of gloves with gel
pads over the ulnar nerve. I keep them in the front basket but so far
have practically never worn them! I think of them as a cold-weather
expeditive for days when my hands are practically sticking to the
handlebars with frost - and with all this global warming it never gets
that cold anymore in these parts.

I think the benefits of padded mitts (and, I'm told, front suspension)
vary according to how much of your weight is on your hands and how much
of your weight is on your bottom. However, if you're riding in a
position sufficiently forward that your hands sometimes hurt, that
implies that you really should get some padded fingerless mitts and wear
them all the time.

I ride a bike that has a hell of a lot more shock and vibration
isolation than yours does --- 26x1.95 tyres, suspension front and rear
and fat grips --- but on the odd occasions I've ridden it for an hour or
so without gloves on I've been acutely aware of my hands. My best
fitting pair of fingered gloves for colder mornings don't have such
effective padding, and a long ride in those is vaguely uncomfortable
too: I must buy some padded, fingered, gloves for the winter.

I wear a pair of Nike mitts that cost about Euro25.

It's hard to see how a vaguely correctly fitted pair of mitts could be
anything worse than a waste of a small amount of money.

On the topic of bike suspension, my wife rides a fairly upright Giant
``GSR Comfort'', which has short-travel forks, a suspension seat post
and a fat get saddle. She says it's very comfortable, but a serious
cycling friend who has ridden it questions the merit of the front fork,
simply because there's little weight over it. The suspension seat post
she rates more highly, but points out that it doesn't offer much
protection against pedal bob, and therefore your pedaling efficiency (I
nearly wrote peddling efficiency!) will be slightly reduced.

ian

Elisa Francesca Roselli said:

Ambrose Nankivell said:

How well do you find roller brakes work? Do they have bite to
their action or are they spongy? Can you brake hard with them? I
tend to brake late and quite hard, so I'd want something with a
positive action. I'm tempted to fit a roller brake when I get a
hub dynamo for winter.

I love the brakes. So far (touch wood) they have never pitched me
over the handlebars, as Myrtille did as soon as I had her fitted
with new V-brakes. The action is progressive but responsive and
powerful. I can brake hard, although personally I'm the opposite of
you - brake early not to say all the time! ;°> They are used on
tandems because they are strong, and on Dutch city bikes because
they are unaffected by weather. I believe they are the only brake
that doesn't mind getting wet.

The biggest drawback is that I think these are perhaps the heaviest
kind of brake. They are in part responsible for the lumbering
weight of Dutch type bikes. My dealer says they are much better than
V-brakes in every respect except this, and that this is the reason
they are never used on good mountain bikes where lightness is an
important consideration.

Hope that helps.

Certainly does. They're on my wish list now.

A

The first advantage is much lower maintenance. In a place where the
roads are sanded, rim brake pads may have to be replaced monthly.
After a few months of this, the abrasion from this sand can wear out
the rims, requiring wheel replacement. In contrast, all roller brakes
require is adding some grease every two years. Oner advantaces are no
brake dust to soil your clothing and better braking in the wet. They
are a good idea if you ride daily and in all weather, particularly in
street clothing, and don't like to play mechanic.

I don't find the extra couple of pounds a problem. One thing that I
do notice is that one has to really squeeze hard to lock a wheel. If
you don't have the grip strength to get full braking, this could be a
safety issue. In theory, they could also experience brake fade on a
steep descent, althjough I have not experienced this.

They are not for everyone, but they are the best solution in some
circumstances.

Paul