Extra spokes & Chainwhip?

I always carry extra spokes but I carry a hypercracker, a tiny tool which
will get off cassettes by lever against the bike frame.
I've had to use it maybe three times in 40+ tours.

200a said:

How many actually carry a chainwhip, freewheel tool, and extra spokes on a
long tour?

Ditto what Garry wrote- since I use a wheel with a Shimano cassette, I
carry a HyperCracker and a few spokes. I also carry a FiberFix spoke
which can be used without taking the cassette off, in case a spoke
breaks in a torrential downpour or where it's really cold. However,
with properly built wheels I haven't had a spoke break in years.

"200a" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

How many actually carry a chainwhip, freewheel tool, and extra spokes on a
long tour?

Do you have these tools now? If you do and are competent with them, then
you might consider it. If not, why lug around something you can't work?

Also, consider the extra bulk and weight of the tools. To me, they are just
heavy security blankets. I figure if I have a problem on the road, worst
case scenario, I'll call a tow truck!

If your spokes are unusual, then it would be common sense to stick some it.

I start out with a very well maintained bike with quality components.

"200a" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

How many actually carry a chainwhip, freewheel tool, and extra spokes on a
long tour?

Touring where?

I carry a few spokes - figure for the others, hitchike if necessary to
nearest bike shop.

'Course, I've largely toured in the U.S. midwest - would change my strategy
in Mexico....

J.W.

Quoted message said:

How many actually carry a chainwhip, freewheel tool, and extra spokes on a
long tour?

I carry extra spokes, but not freewheel tool or chainwhip. I've had
spokes break on tours, but always have been able to ride to a shop and
then have the spokes be replaced.

I've also had 4 rims crack on tour, and once had a hub go out and once
had a frame crack. On that count:
1. rim #1, Alaska Highway ~mile 500. Called nearest bike shop, had
them build a wheel and send it up.
2. rim #2, Kenora, Ontario not far out of town. Cycled to bike shop.
3. rim #3, Corner Brook, Newfoundland. Cycled to bike shop.
4. rim #4, Outback Western Australia. Cycled ~180 miles after cracks
started appearing in the rim, to Broome, WA.
5. frame #1, Outback Western Australia, Duct Tape and cycled ~180
miles to Geraldton, WA. Flew back to USA to pick up a replacement
bicycle.
6. hub #1, North Island, NZ, walked for a while and caught a ride with
a few former Samoans in a fruit truck.

--mev, Mike Vermeulen

anonymous said:

Quoted message said:

How many actually carry a chainwhip, freewheel tool, and extra
spokes on a long tour?

http://www-math.science.unitn.it/Bike/General/Packing_List.html

Quoted message said:

Do you have these tools now? If you do and are competent with them,
then you might consider it. If not, why lug around something you
can't work?

If you are not mechanically self sufficient, you are not ready to go
on a "long tour" or for that matter a typical weekend ride in the SF
Bay area where many roads are far from assistance and many interesting
roads are not open to motor vehicles, so there is no hitch hike option.

Quoted message said:

Also, consider the extra bulk and weight of the tools. To me, they
are just heavy security blankets. I figure if I have a problem on
the road, worst case scenario, I'll call a tow truck!

Typically, there is no cell phone signal in our area west of the coast
range (most of the interesting bicycling, or east of the east bay
hills, an uninhabited areas behind MT. Hamilton.

http://mthamilton.ucolick.org/hamcam/

I suspect you don't take long day rides or go touring or you wouldn't
be so smug about the issue.

http://www.bicyclinglife.com/Recreation/SierraSpring.htm

Quoted message said:

If your spokes are unusual, then it would be common sense to stick
some it.

All spokes are unusual when you are underway.

Quoted message said:

I start out with a very well maintained bike with quality components.

Don't fool yourself. Bicycles have failures. Know how to handle them.

http://tinyurl.com/adls

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

anonymous writes:

I suspect you don't take long day rides or go touring or you wouldn't
be so smug about the issue.

Wrong again.

I also don't take a pocket calculator or a nail clipper as you recommend. I
would strongly urge anyone to learn to do math in their head and brave the
odd hangnail on the road until help could be found.

I also agree with you about cell phone coverage. I rarely carry one myself
because coverage is spotty. I walk to a phone or get a ride.

You could choose to carry a spare for every part on your bike along with the
tool to do every job, or, you could choose to carry none. Most of us draw
the line somewhere in between. The air of superiority you give to where you
have drawn the line is plain silly.

Back to chainwhips and etc. Several other posters have expressed opinions
and experiences similiar to mine. But I would advise *you*, after
expressing to me what you have, to never leave home without a chainwhip,
freewheel tool, an assortment of unusual underway spokes, a nailclipper, and
a pocket calculator. You just never know!

"TM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Back to chainwhips and etc. Several other posters have expressed opinions
and experiences similiar to mine. But I would advise *you*, after
expressing to me what you have, to never leave home without a chainwhip,
freewheel tool, an assortment of unusual underway spokes, a nailclipper, and
a pocket calculator. You just never know!

Apparently you have not read much of Jobst's posts here, or his ride
reports. If you did you would be aware that he is quite capable of
taking care of himself, in remote areas, if he experiences most types
of failures. Was not that many years ago that his report of one of
his trips in the Alps talked about having to rebuild a hub on a bike
(I think it was his son's) along the side of the road; about all he
neglected to have along with him was some grease, but he made do with
some suntan lotion until they could get to a town and get some grease.

I get grief when in the low lands around here for the size of the tool
bag on my bike, but I ride those same quiet mountain roads that Jobst
talks about, and carrying a few tools so you do not have to hike 10
miles or more to where you can get some help is a small price to pay.
I think with your attitude that you had better hope that someone like
Jobst or myself stumble upon you when you are miles from nowhere and
experience a failure; either that or get the SAG wagon to shadow you
everywhere.

- rick

"Rick Warner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Apparently you have not read much of Jobst's posts here, or his ride
reports.

Apparently you did not read his reply to my post.

If you did you would be aware that he is quite capable of

Quoted message said:

taking care of himself,

Then why are you taking care of him now?

Quoted message said:

of failures. Was not that many years ago that his report of one of
his trips in the Alps talked about having to rebuild a hub on a bike
(I think it was his son's) along the side of the road; about all he
neglected to have along with him was some grease, but he made do with
some suntan lotion until they could get to a town and get some grease.

I would have needed more than grease at town, but I would have made it.

Quoted message said:

I get grief when in the low lands around here for the size of the tool
bag on my bike, but I ride those same quiet mountain roads that Jobst
talks about, and carrying a few tools

What if someone chastised you for carrying too few tools? How do you know
you have enough? Where do you draw the line? Do you simply have the right
amount because Jobst won't shout you down?

so you do not have to hike 10

Quoted message said:

miles or more to where you can get some help is a small price to pay.

You forgot to add "for me". There are many others for whom it is not a
"small" price to pay offset an unlikely risk. I am one of those.

Quoted message said:

I think with your attitude

My attitude is fine. I never questioned Jobst's competency to make bicycle
repairs or chastised him for carrying too many tools as you imply in your
post. Quite the contrary, he questioned my ability to ride precisely
because my tool bag contained the wrong amount of tools! Funny, that makes
him guilty of the very offences you are accussing me of committing. I won't
hold my breath waiting for your reply correcting his attitude.

that you had better hope that someone like

Quoted message said:

Jobst or myself stumble upon you when you are miles from nowhere and
experience a failure;

If I had a breakdown I would be delighted to see anyone who was helpful.
Neither one of you have given me the impression that you would qualify. I
may be wrong.

either that or get the SAG wagon to shadow you

Quoted message said:

everywhere.

No. That is not the only alternative. If you choose to believe that you
need to carry a tool kit containing more tools than mine, fine. Please
don't patronize me because I do not agree with your selection. You speak of
these lonely roads, but what about desolate single track? I do not know a
single mountain biker that carries a chainwhip and etc., yet you guys ride
some desolate road and feel you are like Lewis and Clark!

"TM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Rick Warner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Apparently you have not read much of Jobst's posts here, or his ride
reports.

Apparently you did not read his reply to my post.

Apparently I did. You just have such a chip on your shoulder, for
some reason, that you seem to have lost a degree of rationality.
Jobst merely pointed out that the option of waiting for a tow truck,
which you had opined was a valid option, is not an option in many
places and that if you choose to believe that is an option that
perhaps you should stick to riding in places where services are more
readily available.

Quoted message said:

If you did you would be aware that he is quite capable of

Quoted message said:

taking care of himself,

Then why are you taking care of him now?

I am not taking care of him, just pointing out that Jobst is quite
knowledgable and experienced. Your credentials are unknown, his are
quite public.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of failures. Was not that many years ago that his report of one of
his trips in the Alps talked about having to rebuild a hub on a bike
(I think it was his son's) along the side of the road; about all he
neglected to have along with him was some grease, but he made do with
some suntan lotion until they could get to a town and get some grease.

I would have needed more than grease at town, but I would have made it.

Perhaps. I would wager not very easily.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I get grief when in the low lands around here for the size of the tool
bag on my bike, but I ride those same quiet mountain roads that Jobst
talks about, and carrying a few tools

What if someone chastised you for carrying too few tools? How do you know
you have enough? Where do you draw the line? Do you simply have the right
amount because Jobst won't shout you down?

Hard to say what is enough, but you should have sufficient tools, and
knowledge, to be able to get yourself going again for most types of
failures short of a frame or hub falling apart. Does not take many
tools.

Quoted message said:

so you do not have to hike 10

Quoted message said:

miles or more to where you can get some help is a small price to pay.

You forgot to add "for me". There are many others for whom it is not a
"small" price to pay offset an unlikely risk. I am one of those.

Not all that unlikely when you ride 6,000-15,000 miles a year. You
ride that much, even on quality components, you will have breakdowns.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think with your attitude

My attitude is fine. I never questioned Jobst's competency to make bicycle
repairs or chastised him for carrying too many tools as you imply in your
post. Quite the contrary, he questioned my ability to ride precisely
because my tool bag contained the wrong amount of tools!

No. He questioned the wisdom of long rides in remote areas without
proper equipment. And tried to get the message across, the one you
keep ignoring, that tow trucks are not everywhere so planning that as
an escape is not a wise strategy.

Quoted message said:

If I had a breakdown I would be delighted to see anyone who was helpful.
Neither one of you have given me the impression that you would qualify. I
may be wrong.

Actually I am quite helpful on the road. I have given helped many,
given out CO2 cartridges, tubes, and patch kits to strangers, 'fixed'
a bent derailleur hanger to get a rider back on the road - then gave
them money for the phone once they got back to civilization, and many
more. I bet Jobst has helped many folks in his years.

Quoted message said:

either that or get the SAG wagon to shadow you

Quoted message said:

everywhere.

No. That is not the only alternative. If you choose to believe that you
need to carry a tool kit containing more tools than mine, fine. Please
don't patronize me because I do not agree with your selection. You speak of
these lonely roads, but what about desolate single track? I do not know a
single mountain biker that carries a chainwhip and etc., yet you guys ride
some desolate road and feel you are like Lewis and Clark!

You have no idea what tools I carry, yet you seem to think you have
such knowledge. Jobst may carry a chainwhip, since his bike has a
freewheel. I have one bike left with a freewheel, but I only ride
that around town so carry just a basic tube and patch kit on that
setup. On my touring bike I carry a very small hypercracker instead
to remove/install cassettes. And spokes and a spoke wrench. And stuff
for chain repair. And a couple of box wrenches, a couple of cone
wrenches, and an allen wrench set. The wrench for the couplers on my
bike. Small screwdriver. No one is making this out as Lewis and
Clark, just some old guys who do not like to carry their bikes for 20
miles on their shoulders.

Most single-trackers I know of are much closer to services than Jobst
or I are on long rides. Doesn't take much to coast back to the ski
lift. And few mountain bikers will need a chainwhip; do not know the
last time I saw a mountain bike with a freewheel being ridden other
than around town.

- rick

"Rick Warner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >

Quoted message said:

Apparently I did. You just have such a chip on your shoulder, for
some reason, that you seem to have lost a degree of rationality.

The tone of my reply was consistent with the tone with which I was
addressed. Again, you keep making my points!

My original post told the op that if he did not know how to use the tools he
was considering taking to leave them home. I think that advice is better
than what Job offered, namely, stay home. In a nutshell, this is the
difference.

In a worse case scenario outside help will be available in most cases. You
wish to consider only the small percent of the time when it will not and
argue that point. I think that portrays long rides and touring as
unnessarily more dangerous than it is and, in effect, serves to frighten
people away. I desire the opposite, namely, as many people enjoying the
struggles of the road as much as I do.

In article <[email hidden]>,

(Rick Warner) said:

Jobst may carry a chainwhip, since his bike has a
freewheel.

Same here, but I just need the Hyperglide remover -- no chainwhip.
And a homemade 'pocket vice' to fit on the freewheel remover,
so I can get a wrench on it, or a lever in it.

But with the freewheel, I've learned to pack a spare axle
along with the other repair stuff.

nd I don't even travel all that far afield. But a busted axle
can be so heartbreakingly crippling when you can't replace it.

My nail clippers have been a godsend, especially for roadside
flat repairs.

cheers,
Tom

--
-- Powered by FreeBSD
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

TM said:

In a worse case scenario outside help will be available in most cases. You
wish to consider only the small percent of the time when it will not and
argue that point. I think that portrays long rides and touring as
unnessarily more dangerous than it is and, in effect, serves to frighten
people away. I desire the opposite, namely, as many people enjoying the
struggles of the road as much as I do.

Getting more people out is a laudable goal. I would argue that it is
far worse to lead someone into a false sense of security that help is
'available in most cases' than to warn them of the dangers of riding
into unknown areas poorly equipped. In many areas, help is not
readily available and the rider needs to have some basic repair skills
and some basic tools in order to minimize the risk of being stranded
far from nowhere without any options other than picking up the bike
and carrying it. Hefting a bike on one's shoulder for 10 miles is
much more demoralizing than to be told that you should prepare
yourself before heading out. Being told to 'be prepared' should not
be frightening to anyone.

BTW, in Jobst's case, I think that being in more remote areas is not a
small percentage of the time, it is more the rule than the exception.
I rarely see him riding near town; if I see him on his bike it is
either on some remote mountain road, or on the way to some remote
mountain road. Read his recent ride reports of his rides in the
Santa Lucias (subject is something like Carmel Valley or something,
though he repeats in the thread on Big Sur) or the Santa Cruz Mtns
(Last Chance Road). If you want some real fun, read the report of
him, Tom Ritchey, and a bunch of others riding to Gazos Creek
(http://web.archive.org/web/20040515101135/http://www.geocities.com/rayhosler/jobst/gazos.html)
or the one about the ride to Waddell Creek
(http://web.archive.org/web/20040515101234/http://www.geocities.com/rayhosler/jobst/waddell.htm).

- rick

"Rick Warner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Being told to 'be prepared' should not
be frightening to anyone.

You know it is quite tedious when you continue to assign conclusions to the
post in discussion that are not found in it and then defend those
conclusions like that is what this is about. "If you are not mechanically
self sufficient" is not the same as be prepared and you know it. No where
did I advocate not being prepared. In fact, I said if you know how to use
the tools consider taking them.

Clearly then, the objectional part of my post had to be the fact that I do
not accept being mechanically self sufficient as a prerequisite to riding.
I'll say it again, you do not have to be a bike mechanic to take a tour any
more than you have to be an auto mechanic to take a road trip.

Quoted message said:

BTW, in Jobst's case,

In this case he jumped on me and clear in his reply is the notion that
someone has to be 'mechanically self sufficient' to take a tour. That
eliminates the vast majority of riders that I have encountered on self
supported tours not to mention those out riding long days. It sends a
message far stronger than be prepared and the link he posted, if you read
it, goes so far as to recommend a pocket calculator and a nail clipper as
essential to the 'prepared' tour or day rider. I do not agree these items
are essential and never will.

Your opinion is that hiking a bike worse than death. My opinion is that
hiking a bike is better than sitting on the couch. I think the mistake
you've made is to confuse Jobst's opinion with 'the right and true way'.
There are hundreds of people doing things differently than both you and me
and having a ball safely.

From this day forward, however, I will have a special question for every
senior gentleman who looks to be serious about cycling, "Pardon me, do you
have a nail clipper?". The answer to that seems to say a lot about a
person!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <[email hidden]>,

Rick Warner said:

You have no idea what tools I carry, yet you seem to think you have
such knowledge. Jobst may carry a chainwhip, since his bike has a
freewheel. I have one bike left with a freewheel, but I only ride
that around town so carry just a basic tube and patch kit on that
setup. On my touring bike I carry a very small hypercracker instead
to remove/install cassettes.

_ You don't need a chainwhip to remove freewheels, just a long
cresent wrench and the right freewheel tool. Chainwhips are
needed for cassette removal if you don't have a hypercracker.

_ Booekr C. Bense

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<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Quoted message said:

_ You don't need a chainwhip to remove freewheels, just a long
cresent wrench and the right freewheel tool. Chainwhips are
needed for cassette removal if you don't have a hypercracker.

_ Booekr C. Bense

Who said anything about needing the chainwhip for removal? I sure did
not. You need the chainwhip to get the freewheel back on tightly.
And chainwhips are not needed for cassette removal, even if you do not
have a hypercracker (but why would you not have a hypercracker? Small
and light). My Stein freehub wrench holds the cassette tightly while
I use the removal tool and crescent wrench to loosen the cassette
lockring when I am in the shop. Only thing I use chainwhips for these
days are tightening on the freewheels and taking cogs off freewheels.

- rick

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Quoted message said:

_ You don't need a chainwhip to remove freewheels, just a long
cresent wrench and the right freewheel tool. Chainwhips are
needed for cassette removal if you don't have a hypercracker.

_ Booekr C. Bense

Who said anything about needing the chainwhip for removal? I sure did
not. You need the chainwhip to get the freewheel back on tightly.

Pedaling does that just fine for me.

--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in the
newsgroups if possible).

On 18 May 2004 11:24:19 -0700, [email hidden] (Rick

Warner) said:

Who said anything about needing the chainwhip for removal? I sure did
not. You need the chainwhip to get the freewheel back on tightly.

Why? Pedalling doesn't tighten it enough?

Quoted message said:

And chainwhips are not needed for cassette removal, even if you do not
have a hypercracker (but why would you not have a hypercracker? Small
and light). My Stein freehub wrench holds the cassette tightly while
I use the removal tool and crescent wrench to loosen the cassette
lockring when I am in the shop. Only thing I use chainwhips for these
days are tightening on the freewheels and taking cogs off freewheels.

How does your stein freehub wrench compare in volume and mass to a
chainwhip? If it's not lighter, I'd prefer the chainwhip...more
versatile. I'm sure there are some very lightweight chainwhips out
there, and if not, a homemade one would be easy to do lightly.
Anyway, I thought this thread was about equipment for touring, not
tools in shops...
--
Rick "Whip that unruly chain into line!" Onanian

Rick Onanian <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

On 18 May 2004 11:24:19 -0700, [email hidden] (Rick

Warner) said:

Who said anything about needing the chainwhip for removal? I sure did
not. You need the chainwhip to get the freewheel back on tightly.

Why? Pedalling doesn't tighten it enough?

Not when the bike is in the stand and the wheel on the bench. Read
carefully, digest the entire thread, do not leap to conclusions, etc.
etc.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And chainwhips are not needed for cassette removal, even if you do not
have a hypercracker (but why would you not have a hypercracker? Small
and light). My Stein freehub wrench holds the cassette tightly while
I use the removal tool and crescent wrench to loosen the cassette
lockring when I am in the shop. Only thing I use chainwhips for these
days are tightening on the freewheels and taking cogs off freewheels.

How does your stein freehub wrench compare in volume and mass to a
chainwhip? If it's not lighter, I'd prefer the chainwhip...more
versatile.

Who cares about size in the shop? The Stein tool is much easier to
use when dealing with a very tight lockring, the old 'squeeze the
wrenches together' trick, sinilar to squeezing the wrenches together
to loosen a tight headset locknut.

Quoted message said:

Anyway, I thought this thread was about equipment for touring, not
tools in shops...

Right you are, but I was not the person that inferred, quite
incorrectly and without any evidence to support such an incorrect
assumption, that if I mentioned someone carrying a chainwhip that I
must be talking of freewheel removal. If you bothered to read the
thread you would see I was merely pointing out the error of the
poster's ways. Now if you go back to the original thread, read the
whole thing, you will see I said that I do not carry a chainwhip. I
said, also, that I do not ride a freewheel on tour. I merely pointed
out that one poster *might* carry one since I knew he does tour with a
freewheel. My chainwhip stays in the shop, and gets little use. I
enumerated the tools I take on tour, tools now set aside to be packed
and schlepped to Italy in the near future, where I hope to use a few
tools for assembly/disassembly but that some tools (e.g., spoke wrench
and cassette cracker) sit in the bags and do not see the light of day
for the next month.

- rick