bicycle for horses

(Dennis Farr) said:

I posted this last week on some horse sites and got some good advice.
I was wondering if a treadmill could be used to power a wagon and a
horse could be made to operate the treadmill.

I have since found out that horses operated stationary treadmills for
powering machines and ferryboats, but that was almost 200 years ago.

I'm wondering if the technology could be developed that would enable
an ordinary horse and rider to beat Lance Armstrong and/or Smarty
Jones. (I'm thinking 100 relatively flat miles at 35 mph would be a
good goal, better than anything possible by a bicyclist or horse and
rider.) Basic data, a horse weighs around 1000 pounds and can generate
up to 3 horsepower in short bursts. Treadmill would probably have to
be around 10-12 feet long, would need some sort of automatic
transmission to keep the horse operating at it's best speed and keep
it from falling off either end on a hilly road.

On a more practical level, if there are some of you who DON'T think it
would be worthwhile to do this just to see if it could be done, this
could magnify the output of a horse just as a bike magnifies the
output of a human, and in parts of the world where animal power is
still used, it could make peoples' lives better.

I don't own horses, don't know how to weld, don't have any money.
Anybody thinks this is a cool idea, give it a shot and let me know if
it works.

There are lots of challenges, both ergonomic and engineering.

Won't work for two reasons that I can think of.

1. too much weight for the apparatus;
2. four-footed animals use not only their four feet, but also their
midsection at the gallop, which functions like an additional leg or
similar. The mid section contracts and extends adding a lot to the power
and it would be difficult to transfer this power to a treadmill, IMO;
3. lack of proper fit and friction to transfer as much power from the
horse's feet to the treadmill.

OK, that's three reasons... ;-p

-Badger
Oh, and you'd have to change horses well before 100 miles. I think the pony
express riders changed up at like 30 miles or 50 miles, IIRC.

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I posted this last week on some horse sites and got some good advice.
I was wondering if a treadmill could be used to power a wagon and a
horse could be made to operate the treadmill.

I have since found out that horses operated stationary treadmills for
powering machines and ferryboats, but that was almost 200 years ago.

I'm wondering if the technology could be developed that would enable
an ordinary horse and rider to beat Lance Armstrong and/or Smarty
Jones. (I'm thinking 100 relatively flat miles at 35 mph would be a
good goal, better than anything possible by a bicyclist or horse and
rider.) Basic data, a horse weighs around 1000 pounds and can generate
up to 3 horsepower in short bursts. Treadmill would probably have to
be around 10-12 feet long, would need some sort of automatic
transmission to keep the horse operating at it's best speed and keep
it from falling off either end on a hilly road.

On a more practical level, if there are some of you who DON'T think it
would be worthwhile to do this just to see if it could be done, this
could magnify the output of a horse just as a bike magnifies the
output of a human, and in parts of the world where animal power is
still used, it could make peoples' lives better.

I think it could work, but don't think you'd get 35 mph out of it for
any length of time. Do some of the math, and figure out how much power
it would take to move 1200 lbs at 35 mph over a typical road, and then
compare that to how much power a horse can put out for 3 hours. I don't
think those numbers will be consistent with each other.

Consider a bicycle: a top human sprinter (Cipo, etc) can put out a
little over 2 hp for a few seconds, and that gets him up to around 50
mph, with a total weight of bike and rider of less than 200 lb. I don't
think you'll get a horse and carriage to 35 for very long, even without
carrying any useful payload.

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Badger_South said:

2. four-footed animals use not only their four feet, but also their
midsection at the gallop, which functions like an additional leg or
similar. The mid section contracts and extends adding a lot to the power
and it would be difficult to transfer this power to a treadmill, IMO;

O.k., I give. How would this power *not* transfer to a treadmill?
Where would it go?

--kyler

"Kyler Laird" <[email hidden]> wrote: O.k., I give. How would this
power *not* transfer to a treadmill? Where would it go?
^^^^^^^^^^^^
A horse walking on a treadmill could transfer full power to the propulsion
system. But a horse, developing full power (picture a horse at full gallop)
would be out of contact with the treadmill a lot of the time. So, to keep
him from running off the front of the system, you would have to tether him,
and he would end up pulling on a harness. That is what draft horses already
do, except they push against the ground. I believe that is the most
efficient method of drawing power from a horse. And, I believe a rider on
the back of a horse would be using the horsepower more efficiently than any
contrivance you could rig up. A rider at full gallop could surely beat
Lance Armstrong.

"Leo Lichtman" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

A rider at full gallop could surely beat
Lance Armstrong.

Every day for 3 weeks?

Pete

"Pete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Leo Lichtman" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

A rider at full gallop could surely beat
Lance Armstrong.

Every day for 3 weeks?

How long can a horse sustain a gallop?

Secretariat's time in the Belmont was 2:24 for 1.5 miles, which is about
37.5 miles per hour.
(He won by 31 lengths, and it's one of those records that may stand for a
long time.)

But even Secretariat couldn't maintain anywhere near that pace for many
miles.

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 21:10:11 GMT, Kyler Laird <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Badger_South said:

2. four-footed animals use not only their four feet, but also their
midsection at the gallop, which functions like an additional leg or
similar. The mid section contracts and extends adding a lot to the power
and it would be difficult to transfer this power to a treadmill, IMO;

O.k., I give. How would this power *not* transfer to a treadmill?
Where would it go?

--kyler

Because the horse would run off the treadmill, being in the air during that
time.

-B

Leo Lichtman said:

"Kyler Laird" <[email hidden]> wrote: O.k., I give. How would this
power *not* transfer to a treadmill? Where would it go?
^^^^^^^^^^^^
A horse walking on a treadmill could transfer full power to the propulsion
system. But a horse, developing full power (picture a horse at full gallop)
would be out of contact with the treadmill a lot of the time.

Uh, yeah. But the ground/treadmill is still the only thing against which
the horse can push. The force doesn't go anywhere else.

Quoted message said:

So, to keep
him from running off the front of the system, you would have to tether him,
and he would end up pulling on a harness.

Or use an incline to offset the resistance of the system, but I suspect
that if you rigged such a device you'd want a harness anyway.

--kyler

"Dennis Farr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I posted this last week on some horse sites and got some good advice.
I was wondering if a treadmill could be used to power a wagon and a
horse could be made to operate the treadmill.

I have since found out that horses operated stationary treadmills for
powering machines and ferryboats, but that was almost 200 years ago.

I'm wondering if the technology could be developed that would enable
an ordinary horse and rider to beat Lance Armstrong and/or Smarty
Jones. (I'm thinking 100 relatively flat miles at 35 mph would be a
good goal, better than anything possible by a bicyclist or horse and
rider.) Basic data, a horse weighs around 1000 pounds and can generate
up to 3 horsepower in short bursts. Treadmill would probably have to
be around 10-12 feet long, would need some sort of automatic
transmission to keep the horse operating at it's best speed and keep
it from falling off either end on a hilly road.

On a more practical level, if there are some of you who DON'T think it
would be worthwhile to do this just to see if it could be done, this
could magnify the output of a horse just as a bike magnifies the
output of a human, and in parts of the world where animal power is
still used, it could make peoples' lives better.

I don't own horses, don't know how to weld, don't have any money.
Anybody thinks this is a cool idea, give it a shot and let me know if
it works.

There are lots of challenges, both ergonomic and engineering.

The horse has evolved to cover long distances efficiently.
It's one of the most efficent animals on land. Anything you do to change
it's energy transfer system only detracts from the horses performance.

Marty

Leo Lichtman said:

A horse walking on a treadmill could transfer full power to the propulsion
system. But a horse, developing full power (picture a horse at full gallop)
would be out of contact with the treadmill a lot of the time. So, to keep
him from running off the front of the system, you would have to tether him,
and he would end up pulling on a harness.

So I'm thinking lots of hamsters or gerbils. Little arows so they know
which way to run. And maybe a whip.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Badger_South said:

2. four-footed animals use not only their four feet, but also their
midsection at the gallop, which functions like an additional leg or
similar. The mid section contracts and extends adding a lot to the power
and it would be difficult to transfer this power to a treadmill, IMO;

O.k., I give. How would this power *not* transfer to a treadmill?
Where would it go?

I think he's saying that their hooves would likely slip on the treadmill
belt, causing inefficient power transfer.

Quoted message said:

--kyler

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Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in the
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In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

....

Quoted message said:

contrivance you could rig up. A rider at full gallop could surely beat
Lance Armstrong.

Not for 100 miles, he couldn't.

--
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newsgroups if possible).

[email hidden] (Dennis Farr) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I posted this last week on some horse sites and got some good advice.
I was wondering if a treadmill could be used to power a wagon and a
horse could be made to operate the treadmill.

I think a lot of the discussion on this is missing a basic point... A
horse
on a running on a treadmill is using the exact same motion as a horse
running
on the ground. All the treadmill and wagon can do is add friction and
slow down
the horse. The reason a bicycle is more efficient than running is
that the weight is
supported and the power is transferred directly to the wheels.

If you could design a wheeled contraption to support the horses weight
and let it
transfer power directly to the wheels, you would have something that
would go
very well. Also people would pay to see it 🙂

Jeff

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 09:28:49 -0400, David Kerber <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net>

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Badger_South said:

2. four-footed animals use not only their four feet, but also their
midsection at the gallop, which functions like an additional leg or
similar. The mid section contracts and extends adding a lot to the power
and it would be difficult to transfer this power to a treadmill, IMO;

O.k., I give. How would this power *not* transfer to a treadmill?
Where would it go?

I think he's saying that their hooves would likely slip on the treadmill
belt, causing inefficient power transfer.

Actually using bad or no physics, I fsked up, and now I'm trying to do
damage control. It might have been I wasn't awake yet. Yeah that's it. ;-p

-Badger

Thanks for all the comments. I'd like to mainly reply to the
objections that were raised.

"pony express changed horses after 25 miles"

Exactly. If Lance had to run and not ride I doubt if HE could cover
100 miles in a day either. Put the horse on a mechanism that can 1)
coast, and 2) has gears for magnifying the horse's power, and I think
the horse could go at least as far as a human on a bike.

"galloping"

The gears on a bike let us move our legs at a reasonable speed while
turning the wheels much faster. Imagine a Clydesdale on a four-tired
vehicle with a treadmill hooked up to a very high gear (what could he
turn on the flat for an extended period of time? 200 inches? 300?) The
horsey doesn't have to go fast, he's a very strong animal, and if he
can push that big gear all day long, he's going to cover some ground.

"too heavy"

Lance's bike weighs about 10% of Lance. If horse and driver weigh 1200
pounds, 10% of that is 120 lb. Double that because we're probably
going to need 4 wheels. Even if you double that again, we're up to
about what a buggy weighs, and horses pulled them around in all those
Western movies without too much evident strain.

"horse evolved to run"

Point well taken. I think the hardest part of this project is going to
be making the apparatus well suited to the horse. But don't forget
that horses walking on treadmills were the preferred power source for
ferry boats for a brief period when the technology for treadmills
existed but we couldn't make steam engines yet.

Again, thanks for all the comments. Hopefully someone will try this
out, if not with a horse, maybe with a dog first.

Thanks for all the comments. I'd like to mainly reply to the
objections that were raised.

"pony express changed horses after 25 miles"

Exactly. If Lance had to run and not ride I doubt if HE could cover
100 miles in a day either. Put the horse on a mechanism that can 1)
coast, and 2) has gears for magnifying the horse's power, and I think
the horse could go at least as far as a human on a bike.

"galloping"

The gears on a bike let us move our legs at a reasonable speed while
turning the wheels much faster. Imagine a Clydesdale on a four-tired
vehicle with a treadmill hooked up to a very high gear (what could he
turn on the flat for an extended period of time? 200 inches? 300?) The
horsey doesn't have to go fast, he's a very strong animal, and if he
can push that big gear all day long, he's going to cover some ground.

"too heavy"

Lance's bike weighs about 10% of Lance. If horse and driver weigh 1200
pounds, 10% of that is 120 lb. Double that because we're probably
going to need 4 wheels. Even if you double that again, we're up to
about what a buggy weighs, and horses pulled them around in all those
Western movies without too much evident strain.

"horse evolved to run"

Point well taken. I think the hardest part of this project is going to
be making the apparatus well suited to the horse. But don't forget
that horses walking on treadmills were the preferred power source for
ferry boats for a brief period when the technology for treadmills
existed but we couldn't make steam engines yet.

Again, thanks for all the comments. Hopefully someone will try this
out, if not with a horse, maybe with a dog first.

(Dennis Farr) said:

Thanks for all the comments. I'd like to mainly reply to the
objections that were raised.

"pony express changed horses after 25 miles"

Exactly. If Lance had to run and not ride I doubt if HE could cover
100 miles in a day either. Put the horse on a mechanism that can 1)
coast, and 2) has gears for magnifying the horse's power, and I think
the horse could go at least as far as a human on a bike.

Huh? You said a 'flat course'. Of course a biker can coast, and the gears
work. The point, I thought, was 'horse/treadmill v Lance 100 miles on the
flat'. Simple. Simple answer, nope.

Quoted message said:

"galloping"

The gears on a bike let us move our legs at a reasonable speed while
turning the wheels much faster. Imagine a Clydesdale on a four-tired
vehicle with a treadmill hooked up to a very high gear (what could he
turn on the flat for an extended period of time? 200 inches? 300?) The
horsey doesn't have to go fast, he's a very strong animal, and if he
can push that big gear all day long, he's going to cover some ground.

Even if you made the device of Unobtanium, the lightest metal in the
universe (for sake of argument), the friction of such an incredibly complex
device would be more than enough to bring it to a near standstill, IMO.

Quoted message said:

"too heavy"

Lance's bike weighs about 10% of Lance. If horse and driver weigh 1200
pounds, 10% of that is 120 lb. Double that because we're probably
going to need 4 wheels. Even if you double that again, we're up to
about what a buggy weighs, and horses pulled them around in all those
Western movies without too much evident strain.

"horse evolved to run"

Point well taken. I think the hardest part of this project is going to
be making the apparatus well suited to the horse. But don't forget
that horses walking on treadmills were the preferred power source for
ferry boats for a brief period when the technology for treadmills
existed but we couldn't make steam engines yet.

So maybe the question should have been, can a horse, walking all day, beat
Lance over 100 miles. Can a horse walk all day? For 2 days? Horses,
depending on breed can go pretty fast for 20-30 miles and that's it.

Quoted message said:

Again, thanks for all the comments. Hopefully someone will try this
out, if not with a horse, maybe with a dog first.

Yeah, not to be argumentative, interesting question for a while. On the
dog, too small an engine.

Best,

-B

Can you even install cleats in hooves?

Bill "and then of course, there's finding a SADDLE" S.

S o r n i said:

Can you even install cleats in hooves?

Yep, horses often have them. Humans use those cleats to play games,
too...we throw them at a pole and argue if it's close enough.

Quoted message said:

Bill "and then of course, there's finding a SADDLE" S.

Argh.
--
Rick Onanian