Cramps

I have been fighting cramps for about 5 years and have done a ton of
research. Two main responses you are going to get will focus on hydration
and electrolytes. These are usually the key cause for the large percentage
of those who end up getting cramps. Unfortunately, they are not the reason
for mine. Realize with today's bike clothes and the breeze from riding, it
is hard to know how much you are really sweating. One good indication is
the amount of salt in your bike clothes after riding. An important thing
is to take constant sips throughout your ride. The body can only absorb so
much water at any one time. This is the reason that a number of people use
Camelbaks. The other important thing is to take in electrolytes while your
ride.

Another focus is on how the body utilizes carbohydrates (glucose and
glycogen) and the resulting processing of lactic acid; this has made me
realize that these attacks have always been during periods of increased
Cytomax usage. Cytomax is based on and contains an alpha-L-polylactate
(label attached). It is basically the lactate with the acid removed and
works as a buffer, clustered around amino acids and carbohydrates. They
describe this as a non-acidic L-lactate ionically bound to L-argine. I have
encountered three other riders that were having challenges with cramping
that was tied to their usage of Cytomax (if there are others who are reading
this post, please respond). After I stopped using Cytomax, I have only had
one episode. Other than the Gatorade indicate below, do you use any
sports/energy type drinks?

Have you had any previous episodes?

"Mike McGuire" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I got into a pretty bad place with cramps yesterday doing a ride which
was a step up from what from what I had done before. It was a first try
at going up to Skyline from where I live in Palo Alto. Using a mapping
program,counting the ups and downs, this is about 2600 total feet of
gain. The first eight miles is rolling with total gain of 600 feet to
the start of Kings Mtn road, and then it gets hard and gains 1600 feet
in four miles. So I got to the top of that and took a rest. The day was
in the mid 70's and the route is mostly shady so I did't feel
particularly overheated, nor did it seem like I had sweated excessively.
I was tired but I didn't feel spent or bonked or particularyly
dehydrated. I spent about ten minutes resting and drank about 16 oz of
Gatorade and ate an enery bar. The I headed on. The rest of the route
was south on Skyline and was to gain about 300 feet over a couple of
miles and a few more downhill miles to my descent route. It was on this
uphill the trouble started. I started getting cramps in my quads and the
muscles on the inside of my thighs. I had to stop and get over them.
Then I started again and before long the cramps hit again. I took about
3 cycles of this to get over the hump and down La Honda road to the
flats. When I got there it was clear that I wasn't going to be able to
climb even the short hills it would take to get home, so to avoid a
littering citation, I called my spousal unit to come pick up the bike
and the grotesquely twitching corpse.

So what to do about this? How to avoid it. I want to do rides like this
and more. It wasn't like a bonk. If it weren't for the cramps, I had
plenty of energy to keep going. It seems like it was some sort of
depletion thing going on. I hit zero on something and the cramps
started. I stopped and recovered a little bit, but before long I zeroed
out again, and finally I got to where there was no recovery at all.

The one good thing I want to comment on, was the number people on bikes
who observed me having problems, and asked how I was doing or could they
help.

Mike

take 100 out of my email to reach me.

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

....

Quoted message said:

So what to do about this? How to avoid it. I want to do rides like this
and more. It wasn't like a bonk. If it weren't for the cramps, I had
plenty of energy to keep going. It seems like it was some sort of
depletion thing going on. I hit zero on something and the cramps
started. I stopped and recovered a little bit, but before long I zeroed
out again, and finally I got to where there was no recovery at all.

Pure muscular exhaustion can cause cramps, but from what I've read and
experienced, low electrolytes (particularly potassium and sodium) can
contribute as well. In your case, it sounds like you had simply over-
worked your legs.

--
Dave Kerber
Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

David Kerber said:

Quoted message said:

So what to do about this? How to avoid it. I want to do rides like
this and more. It wasn't like a bonk. If it weren't for the
cramps, I had plenty of energy to keep going. It seems like it was
some sort of depletion thing going on. I hit zero on something and
the cramps started. I stopped and recovered a little bit, but
before long I zeroed out again, and finally I got to where there
was no recovery at all.

Quoted message said:

Pure muscular exhaustion can cause cramps, but from what I've read
and experienced, low electrolytes (particularly potassium and
sodium) can contribute as well. In your case, it sounds like you
had simply over- worked your legs.

In that respect, V8-Vegetable juice is probably the best drink
commonly found in stores that contains the electrolytes needed. Of
course it isn't a classy name like Power Bar or Gatorade, but it beats
these in content. Check the label.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

InfoQuest said:

I have been fighting cramps for about 5 years and have done a ton of
research. Other than the Gatorade indicate below, do you use any
sports/energy type drinks?

Have you had any previous episodes?

I haven't used anything but Gatorade. Note to Jobst--I took a look at a
the label on a can---37% RDA of Sodium and 22% RDA of Postassium--You're
right.

I have had this happen a time or two before on backpack trips--a heavy
load, long climb + altitude did it too me, but I'm lighter and in better
shape now and wasn't expecting it. I didn't drink anything while on the
hard part of the climb. That may be the key. I have noticed as I expand
by capabilities, the first time on something new is ghastly, the second
time hard, the third time I wonder what the problems was, and the fourth
time I get careless and its hard again.

Mike

take 100 out of my email to reach me.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Mike McGuire said:

So what to do about this? How to avoid it. I want to do rides like this
and more. It wasn't like a bonk. If it weren't for the cramps, I had
plenty of energy to keep going.

Well you say you weren't dehydrated, but I think you're mistaken.

Drink more and use an electrolyte replacement on long/hot/hard
rides. It's very easy to underestimate your sweat rate when climbing,
and especially at altitude or in dry climate. Eating mineral
supplements can help, however if you are not drinking enough you
may just be working on a kidney stone if you add lots of minerals
to your dehydrated body (especially if using cal-mags which contain
a lot of calcium).

24oz per hour in hot climbing conditions is not at all excessive.
However your sweat rate is highly individual and you will need to
measure it to find out how much you are losing. Generally this
means you weigh yourself before and after the ride and assume you
are about a pint low for each pound you lose. Then add that
number of pints to the amount you did drink on the ride, and divide
by the number of hours you were on the road. That will tell you
your hydration target for the next time.

I do a 4-6 hour mountain ride (often hot weather) about once a week
and I have had pretty good luck using Cytomax or Endurolytes. But
to be perfectly honest I don't think these products have any special
magic - if you pay attention to your hydration and do any form of
electrolyte replacement you will probably be OK.

--Paul

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David Kerber said:

Quoted message said:

So what to do about this? How to avoid it. I want to do rides like
this and more. It wasn't like a bonk. If it weren't for the
cramps, I had plenty of energy to keep going. It seems like it was
some sort of depletion thing going on. I hit zero on something and
the cramps started. I stopped and recovered a little bit, but
before long I zeroed out again, and finally I got to where there
was no recovery at all.

Quoted message said:

Pure muscular exhaustion can cause cramps, but from what I've read
and experienced, low electrolytes (particularly potassium and
sodium) can contribute as well. In your case, it sounds like you
had simply over- worked your legs.

In that respect, V8-Vegetable juice is probably the best drink
commonly found in stores that contains the electrolytes needed. Of
course it isn't a classy name like Power Bar or Gatorade, but it beats
these in content. Check the label.

Ick. The thought of drinking V8 in 95 degree Florida heat makes my stomach
turn. :-) Think I'll just drink Gatorade and eat a banana.....

In article <[email hidden]>,

InfoQuest said:

Another focus is on how the body utilizes carbohydrates (glucose and
glycogen) and the resulting processing of lactic acid; this has made me
realize that these attacks have always been during periods of increased
Cytomax usage. Cytomax is based on and contains an alpha-L-polylactate
(label attached). It is basically the lactate with the acid removed and
works as a buffer, clustered around amino acids and carbohydrates. They
describe this as a non-acidic L-lactate ionically bound to L-argine. I have
encountered three other riders that were having challenges with cramping
that was tied to their usage of Cytomax (if there are others who are reading
this post, please respond).

I have had plenty of lessons in cramping but no problems with Cytomax
and cramps.

Gatorade causes cramps for me of another type... the awful gurgly
stomach cramps followed by instant flush of my GI system into the
nearest toilet or drainage ditch. So I had to find something else.

You definitely have to experiment to find out what works best for you.

Paul Southworth said:

I have had plenty of lessons in cramping but no problems with Cytomax
and cramps.

Gatorade causes cramps for me of another type... the awful gurgly
stomach cramps followed by instant flush of my GI system into the
nearest toilet or drainage ditch. So I had to find something else.

I've had this problem with Orange and Fruit Punch. I don't have this
problem with Lemon-Lime, Fierce Grape, Riptide Rush and I recently
tried Xtreme Fruit Punch + Berry, and Xtreme Orange + something else.

The extreme GI flush is usually within a very short period of time
after I start drinking and I'm dehydrated for the rest of the ride.
The last time it happened at the 50 miles point of an un-sag'ed
Century. I had no problems with the Orange on my short rides (40
miles and less) but it also wasn't as hot. The other times with the
GI flush were also hot. I've ridden in as much heat or worse with the
other flavors and had no problem.

--
Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry [email hidden]
http://home.comcast.net/~ncherry/ (Text only)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge)
http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II)

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David Kerber said:

> So what to do about this? How to avoid it. I want to do rides like
> this and more. It wasn't like a bonk. If it weren't for the
> cramps, I had plenty of energy to keep going. It seems like it was
> some sort of depletion thing going on. I hit zero on something and
> the cramps started. I stopped and recovered a little bit, but
> before long I zeroed out again, and finally I got to where there
> was no recovery at all.

Quoted message said:

Pure muscular exhaustion can cause cramps, but from what I've read
and experienced, low electrolytes (particularly potassium and
sodium) can contribute as well. In your case, it sounds like you
had simply over- worked your legs.

In that respect, V8-Vegetable juice is probably the best drink
commonly found in stores that contains the electrolytes needed. Of
course it isn't a classy name like Power Bar or Gatorade, but it beats
these in content. Check the label.

Ick. The thought of drinking V8 in 95 degree Florida heat makes my stomach
turn. :-) Think I'll just drink Gatorade and eat a banana.....

That was my feeling too! I like V-8, but I don't think it would sit
very well in my stomach when I'm hot, sweaty and thirsty. I stick with
diluted Gatorade or plain water.

--
Dave Kerber
Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

Quoted message said:

In that respect, V8-Vegetable juice is probably the best drink
commonly found in stores that contains the electrolytes needed. Of
course it isn't a classy name like Power Bar or Gatorade, but it beats
these in content. Check the label.

If only it didn't taste so bad.

--Bill Davidson

Quoted message said:

From: "Mike McGuire" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I got into a pretty bad place with cramps yesterday doing a ride which
was a step up from what from what I had done before. It was a first try
at going up to Skyline from where I live in Palo Alto.

The ride you describe is one of my favorites except that I start in
Burlingame instead of Palo Alto. And I like the descent down 84 better than
Old La Honda simply because it is much faster.

You did not mention drinking water, IIRC. And on that ride in mild weather,
I will empty two bottles of water by the time I get to the Trading Post on
Skyline. They have an outside water pipe designed for water bottles. So for
me, it is a four bottle ride, and more if it is hot.

Although, as they say, YMMV, I have found it wise to avoid Gatorade. For me,
sports drinks are good after the ride, or on a long ride perhaps between
every fourth or fifth bottle of water. Years ago, I rode with a guy who was
drinking nothing but V8. He got into serious trouble, so bad that I had to
stay way up-wind from him.

And for cramps after the ride, over the years, I have found that calcium and
vitamin D pills make a big difference.

Someone said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> So what to do about this? How to avoid it. I want to do rides
> like this and more. It wasn't like a bonk. If it weren't for
> the cramps, I had plenty of energy to keep going. It seems like
> it was some sort of depletion thing going on. I hit zero on
> something and the cramps started. I stopped and recovered a
> little bit, but before long I zeroed out again, and finally I got
> to where there was no recovery at all.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Pure muscular exhaustion can cause cramps, but from what I've read
and experienced, low electrolytes (particularly potassium and
sodium) can contribute as well. In your case, it sounds like you
had simply over- worked your legs.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In that respect, V8-Vegetable juice is probably the best drink
commonly found in stores that contains the electrolytes needed. Of
course it isn't a classy name like Power Bar or Gatorade, but it beats
these in content. Check the label.

Quoted message said:

Ick. The thought of drinking V8 in 95 degree Florida heat makes my
stomach turn. :-) Think I'll just drink Gatorade and eat a banana...

It's good to see that macho names have a large effect on some
impressionable riders. it makes the money spent on PR worth while
after all. I suspect you haven't tasted V8.

"The thought"! Oh yes the thought!

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Bill Davidson said:

Quoted message said:

In that respect, V8-Vegetable juice is probably the best drink
commonly found in stores that contains the electrolytes needed. Of
course it isn't a classy name like Power Bar or Gatorade, but it
beats these in content. Check the label.

Quoted message said:

If only it didn't taste so bad.

People eat Power Bars that can hardly be swallowed without washing
them down with a chaser and taste like cardboard soaked in molasses.
If you can do that, V8 should be tasty.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Mike McGuire said:

So what to do about this? How to avoid it. I want to do rides like this
and more. It wasn't like a bonk. If it weren't for the cramps, I had
plenty of energy to keep going. It seems like it was some sort of
depletion thing going on. I hit zero on something and the cramps
started. I stopped and recovered a little bit, but before long I zeroed
out again, and finally I got to where there was no recovery at all.

It could be not drinking enough (you didn't say how much you
drank on the climb of Kings Mtn) or lack of electrolytes, but
muscle fatigue due to a ride harder than you're used to and
the prolonged effort required for grinding up a long climb is
also a likely contributor. The cure for this is knowing how
to pace yourself, to take it easy at the start of long rides
and so on. The good news is that if you are careful not to
ride yourself into the ground, your conditioning improves and
it will be easier next time.

Quoted message said:

People eat Power Bars that can hardly be swallowed without washing
them down with a chaser and taste like cardboard soaked in molasses.
If you can do that, V8 should be tasty.

I've never tasted a Power Bar that was even close to as nasty
tasting as V8. I've never like the stuff. I wish I did. It
clearly has a lot of healthy stuff in it. It just makes me gag.

There is a "health" juice that I like. It's Green Machine by
Naked Juice. It's got lots of veggie stuff in it but it also
has a base of apple and pineapple juice that's sweet enough to
make the rest of it tollerable. I'm not sure if it's as healthy
as V8. I would guess not with all that sugary juice.

--Bill Davidson

Quoted message said:

... V8-Vegetable juice is probably the best drink
commonly found in stores that contains the electrolytes needed. Of
course it isn't a classy name like Power Bar or Gatorade, but it beats
these in content. Check the label.

I agree.

A close friend and experienced touring cyclist began having serious
problems riding. Rather than cramping, she was getting irregular
heartbeats, IIRC, and her energy level was way, way down.

Then she discovered V8 juice. She now calls it "The Cure."

I agree the flavor isn't normally my favorite. But on some scorching,
long, dry rides, it seems to have what my body craves.

Another tip: Try adding a bit of salt substitute to your water bottle.
Not much, not enough to affect the taste, just a half teaspoon or so.
It contains both sodium and potassium.

On long rides when I'm pushing myself, I find this makes a very
noticeable difference.

--
--------------------+
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com,
replace with cc.ysu dot edu]

Mon, 31 May 2004 22:27:49 -0400, <[email hidden]>,

Frank Krygowski said:

Then she discovered V8 juice. She now calls it "The Cure."

I agree the flavor isn't normally my favorite. But on some scorching,
long, dry rides, it seems to have what my body craves.

That's how I discovered it. Bagged out, thirsty and bleary eyed I
looked at the drinks in the cooler. Searching for plain cranberry
because none of the sweet stuff appealed to me. Then I saw the V8 and
started thinking about its celery flavour.
Restoration was instant, complete and amazing.
Good stuff, if you like it.
My homemade juice is better and varies with the seasons.
Ginger, celery, lemon, carrots, beets, daikon and/or whatever else.
--
zk

Quoted message said:

In that respect, V8-Vegetable juice is probably the best drink
commonly found in stores that contains the electrolytes needed. Of
course it isn't a classy name like Power Bar or Gatorade, but it beats
these in content. Check the label.

Jobst: I'm sure, as a kid, you loved broccoli, cauliflower, spinach &
brussel sprouts too. Matter of fact, so did/do I (especially if you make it
terribly unhealthy with a lot of cheese sauce). But many people don't have
a taste for that stuff, and V8... yikes... it burns a whole through the
stomach of some people!

Let's see... 8oz of V8 (one-half of a small water bottle)=620mg of sodium.
16oz of Cytomax=80mg of sodium. Both are the recommended serving size (8oz
for V8, 16oz for Cytomax). Calories, 50 for V8, 100 for Cytomax (so exactly
the same per oz). You could go for low sodium V8 (if you can find it), at
just 140mg of sodium/8 oz, but they boost the potassium from 540mg to 840mg.

Many people aren't looking for a bit of carrot & tomato juice to try and
mask that much sodium & potassium. Also, if you do take in that much
sodium, you're going to have to drink one heck of a lot of water to try and
balance out your system...

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David Kerber said:

Quoted message said:

So what to do about this? How to avoid it. I want to do rides like
this and more. It wasn't like a bonk. If it weren't for the
cramps, I had plenty of energy to keep going. It seems like it was
some sort of depletion thing going on. I hit zero on something and
the cramps started. I stopped and recovered a little bit, but
before long I zeroed out again, and finally I got to where there
was no recovery at all.

Quoted message said:

Pure muscular exhaustion can cause cramps, but from what I've read
and experienced, low electrolytes (particularly potassium and
sodium) can contribute as well. In your case, it sounds like you
had simply over- worked your legs.

In that respect, V8-Vegetable juice is probably the best drink
commonly found in stores that contains the electrolytes needed. Of
course it isn't a classy name like Power Bar or Gatorade, but it beats
these in content. Check the label.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

In article <E4Puc.7292$lL1.6135@fed1read03>,

Bill Davidson said:

Quoted message said:

In that respect, V8-Vegetable juice is probably the best drink
commonly found in stores that contains the electrolytes needed. Of
course it isn't a classy name like Power Bar or Gatorade, but it beats
these in content. Check the label.

If only it didn't taste so bad.

It can be stepped-on and modified. I like it with
a squirt of lime juice in it. Some folks do the
worcestershire/tabasco thing to it. But then I
live in a land where some people mix beer &
tomato juice (Manitoba's Standard Lager[tm] is/was
an especially good brew for that.)

Speaking of lime juice, I find papayas to be rather
bland by themselves, but a squirt of lime juice on
them really brings their flavour out.

A big canful of V8 makes a great base for pot roast.
Toss in some spuds, onions, carrots, celery ...
good stuff. Makes good beef stew, too. And if you
like beef & tomato on rice but don't care for it
being too sweet, a small tin of V8 thickened with
a little tapioca starch makes a nice sauce. Maybe
give it a dollop of catsup to lend it /some/ sweetness.

cheers,
Tom

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