blacks and cycling

(Laz) said:

Wondering if anyone can provide any insight/ information regarding why
we don't have more blacks in professional cycling. I asked this
question in bikeforums and got censored ( guess they support racial
under-representation ).Seeing how blacks tend to do very well in track
and field we should expect them to be as gifted in cycling. I don't
really buy the economic arguement, because blacks are not confined to
3rd world nations.
I recall a paramedic instructor for St.Johns said in regards to
olympic swimming medal contenders that blacks generally have a smaller
lung capacity than whites, so this might be a limiting factor for
either endeavor. But I don't know, so any ideas ?

The general leg geometries that make blacks good sprinters and runners
make them poor bicyclists. A long calf does little for you on the
bike.

--
Robb McLeod ([email hidden])
A bus station is where a bus stops. A train station is where a train stops.
On my desk I have a work station...

I watched a couple of African American men win sprint titles at the US
Nationals in Redmond, WA about 12 years ago, one in match sprint, and a
pair in match sprint tandem. One had been a bicycle messenger in NYC in
his youth, but don't recall the history of the other.

I'd guess the reason for what you ask is that road racing is
predominately European. Even the US didn't have a rider in the Tour de
France ever until the early 80s I believe (Boyer). You don't see riders
from China and India, either, and they represent 33% of the world's
population. No races there, nor in Africa, to speak of. It is a sport
that requires much more financial backing than, say, running, plus
access to training facilities (good roads, diet, competition).

Your lung capacity argument seems a bit weak in the face of perennial
African marathon, 10K etc. champions in track and field.

Laz said:

Wondering if anyone can provide any insight/ information regarding why
we don't have more blacks in professional cycling. I asked this
question in bikeforums and got censored ( guess they support racial
under-representation ).Seeing how blacks tend to do very well in track
and field we should expect them to be as gifted in cycling. I don't
really buy the economic arguement, because blacks are not confined to
3rd world nations.
I recall a paramedic instructor for St.Johns said in regards to
olympic swimming medal contenders that blacks generally have a smaller
lung capacity than whites, so this might be a limiting factor for
either endeavor. But I don't know, so any ideas ?

ok... it seems that we have this discussion every season... cant you ust search
teh newsgroup for related posts?... [censored] it gets old... especially since i name
all the past national champions and all the places where cycling is popular
with black people... and then i say all the pros that are black and how there
seems to be more every year... and then some one will make the point that
blacks are generally more dissimilar than whites and so they posses a wide
range of genetic traits that would predispose them to athletic performance in a
lot of different sports... and then that leads us to how skin color is so
insignificant when you start to look at the genetics of different
populations...

the answer is- there arent many big-time black pro bike racers because there
arent that many black amateur bike racers... but this is changing and so in the
next 20-30 years you will for sure see black pros at the top level...

erik saunders said:

ok... it seems that we have this discussion every season... cant you ust search
teh newsgroup for related posts?... [censored] it gets old... especially since i name
all the past national champions and all the places where cycling is popular
with black people... and then i say all the pros that are black and how there
seems to be more every year... and then some one will make the point that
blacks are generally more dissimilar than whites and so they posses a wide
range of genetic traits that would predispose them to athletic performance in a
lot of different sports... and then that leads us to how skin color is so
insignificant when you start to look at the genetics of different
populations...

the answer is- there arent many big-time black pro bike racers because there
arent that many black amateur bike racers... but this is changing and so in the
next 20-30 years you will for sure see black pros at the top level...

That makes sense. Doesn't seem like there's much intelligent
information anyone could add, you've pretty well killed the topic.

Could you do something similar the next time the topic of Michael Moore
is raised?

--

--------------------

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Laz said:

Wondering if anyone can provide any insight/ information regarding why
we don't have more blacks in professional cycling. <snip>

Controversial subject obviously and hard to do any actual research
without being branded as a rascist but here's a book review for an
author that tried to do just that. It doesn't address cycling
specifically though, and it addresses the issue from the opposite side
(abundance of black athletes in other sports).
http://www.jonentine.com/reviews/daily_herald_reconstructed.htm

--
My bike blog:
http://diabloscott.blogspot.com/

"Laz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Wondering if anyone can provide any insight/ information regarding why
we don't have more blacks in professional cycling. I asked this
question in bikeforums and got censored ( guess they support racial
under-representation ).Seeing how blacks tend to do very well in track
and field we should expect them to be as gifted in cycling. I don't
really buy the economic arguement, because blacks are not confined to
3rd world nations.
I recall a paramedic instructor for St.Johns said in regards to
olympic swimming medal contenders that blacks generally have a smaller
lung capacity than whites, so this might be a limiting factor for
either endeavor. But I don't know, so any ideas ?

Idiot,

There is no genetic issues preventing any particular race from doing well in
cycling. It is simply a matter of working at it for long enough. White do
well in cycling probably because there are much fewer opportunities in
sports for skinny white guys. Those blacks that are excellent athletes are
normally attracted to other sports, that is about all it takes to have this
situation that may always be this way. It is not that blacks are
"under-represented" but that they do not choose to compete. There is a
difference...

"Robb McLeod" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

(Laz) said:

Wondering if anyone can provide any insight/ information regarding why
we don't have more blacks in professional cycling. I asked this
question in bikeforums and got censored ( guess they support racial
under-representation ).Seeing how blacks tend to do very well in track
and field we should expect them to be as gifted in cycling. I don't
really buy the economic arguement, because blacks are not confined to
3rd world nations.
I recall a paramedic instructor for St.Johns said in regards to
olympic swimming medal contenders that blacks generally have a smaller
lung capacity than whites, so this might be a limiting factor for
either endeavor. But I don't know, so any ideas ?

The general leg geometries that make blacks good sprinters and runners
make them poor bicyclists. A long calf does little for you on the
bike.

BTW, there are plenty of blacks racing on bkes, just not in the US or
Europe.

Quoted message said:

--
Robb McLeod ([email hidden])
A bus station is where a bus stops. A train station is where a train

stops.

Quoted message said:

On my desk I have a work station...

erik saunders said:

ok... it seems that we have this discussion every season... cant you ust search
teh newsgroup for related posts?... [censored] it gets old... especially since i name
all the past national champions and all the places where cycling is popular
with black people... and then i say all the pros that are black and how there
seems to be more every year... and then some one will make the point that
blacks are generally more dissimilar than whites and so they posses a wide
range of genetic traits that would predispose them to athletic performance in a
lot of different sports... and then that leads us to how skin color is so
insignificant when you start to look at the genetics of different
populations...

the answer is- there arent many big-time black pro bike racers because there
arent that many black amateur bike racers... but this is changing and so in the
next 20-30 years you will for sure see black pros at the top level...

Update your site.

Quoted message said:

From: "Chris" [email hidden]
Date: 7/15/2004 1:02 PM Eastern

Quoted message said:

BTW, there are plenty of blacks racing on bkes, just not in the US or
Europe.

Soon to be more too I hope. Not that I give a [censored] what color someones skin
happens to be, but at the Attleboro Crit Kids race we had a bunch of African
American kids and their families come out, race and hang out to watch the adult
races.
More importantly we had 88 kids most of whom were local and not associated
with bike racing come out for a first time event.
Bill C

"Robb McLeod" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The general leg geometries that make
blacks good sprinters and runners
make them poor bicyclists. A long
calf does little for you on the bike.

You might as well say they're not bouyant enough to be
swimmers.

Semi-related, check out the NYTimes article today on the
dearth of U.S. middle distance (800m &1500m) runners. One theory:
The growth of year-round soccer for U.S. kids takes away from
track. No kids in the pipeline, no elite runners at the top of the
pyramid (to mix metaphors).
Also, African runners are okay with the idea that 99% of them
are over-tested and discarded in order to find the top 1% that can
survive the severe training and emerge as elite runners. The
U.S./western worship of the individual supposedly gets in the way
of such Darwinian winnowing in the U.S. and Europe. YMMV.

Rico

------

Once a Strength, Middle Distances Are Now the Forgotten Events
By Bill Pennington / July 15, 2004

It has been 32 years since an American man has won an Olympic gold
medal in a middle-distance track event. The American record in the
mile, 3 minutes 47.69 seconds by Steve Scott, has stood for 22
years. In the middle distances, defined as the 800 meters and the
1,500 meters, there has not been an American man ranked No. 1 in
the world since 1980. In the last 20 years, fewer than a dozen
Americans have cracked the world's top five at either distance.
....

There are essentially two schools of thought about what has been
holding the Americans back. One says that the American system of
training runners is flawed; the other, which is more damning, says
that the latest generation of young American athletes just does
not care about running fast miles anymore. ...

Cultural differences, or cultural changes, in the United States
are often cited as a factor in the quality of American
middle-distance race results. Several former top 1,500 and 800
runners said they wondered if America's youth had become so
focused on team sports like soccer, basketball, football and
lacrosse that track was losing the top athletes it once could
count on. ...

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/15/sports/othersports/15distance.html

(Laz) said:

I don't really buy the economic arguement,
because blacks are not confined to
3rd world nations.

Blacks lag in income and particularly in wealth in most or all western
societies.

JT

"Rico X. Partay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Robb McLeod" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The general leg geometries that make
blacks good sprinters and runners
make them poor bicyclists. A long
calf does little for you on the bike.

You might as well say they're not bouyant enough to be
swimmers.

Yup, they just about do say that. The thing is that a racist never knows he
revealed his bias until someone spells it our for them. Why do you think so
many people have hung themselves with idiotic public statements?

Quoted message said:

Semi-related, check out the NYTimes article today on the
dearth of U.S. middle distance (800m &1500m) runners. One theory:
The growth of year-round soccer for U.S. kids takes away from
track. No kids in the pipeline, no elite runners at the top of the
pyramid (to mix metaphors).
Also, African runners are okay with the idea that 99% of them
are over-tested and discarded in order to find the top 1% that can
survive the severe training and emerge as elite runners. The
U.S./western worship of the individual supposedly gets in the way
of such Darwinian winnowing in the U.S. and Europe. YMMV.

Rico

------

Once a Strength, Middle Distances Are Now the Forgotten Events
By Bill Pennington / July 15, 2004

It has been 32 years since an American man has won an Olympic gold
medal in a middle-distance track event. The American record in the
mile, 3 minutes 47.69 seconds by Steve Scott, has stood for 22
years. In the middle distances, defined as the 800 meters and the
1,500 meters, there has not been an American man ranked No. 1 in
the world since 1980. In the last 20 years, fewer than a dozen
Americans have cracked the world's top five at either distance.
...

There are essentially two schools of thought about what has been
holding the Americans back. One says that the American system of
training runners is flawed; the other, which is more damning, says
that the latest generation of young American athletes just does
not care about running fast miles anymore. ...

Cultural differences, or cultural changes, in the United States
are often cited as a factor in the quality of American
middle-distance race results. Several former top 1,500 and 800
runners said they wondered if America's youth had become so
focused on team sports like soccer, basketball, football and
lacrosse that track was losing the top athletes it once could
count on. ...

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/15/sports/othersports/15distance.html

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

(Laz) said:

I don't really buy the economic arguement,
because blacks are not confined to
3rd world nations.

Blacks lag in income and particularly in wealth in most or all western
societies.

I accept the truth of that, but what is the link between wealth and
bicycle racing success? Armstrong does not come from a family of
notable wealth. Is he atypical?

--

--------------------

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On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 10:59:42 -0700, Chris <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Rico X. Partay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Robb McLeod" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The general leg geometries that make
blacks good sprinters and runners
make them poor bicyclists. A long
calf does little for you on the bike.

You might as well say they're not bouyant enough to be
swimmers.

Yup, they just about do say that. The thing is that a racist never knows
he
revealed his bias until someone spells it our for them. Why do you
think so
many people have hung themselves with idiotic public statements?

What if they're really are genetic differences that affect which sports
African Americans enter and win? Is this "racist" to say that there might
be such differences?

--
Bob in CT
Remove ".x" to reply

"Bob in CT" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What if they're really are genetic
differences that affect which sports
African Americans enter and win?

What if your aunt had balls?
Would she be your uncle?

On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:04:28 -0700, Rico X. Partay <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Bob in CT" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What if they're really are genetic
differences that affect which sports
African Americans enter and win?

What if your aunt had balls?
Would she be your uncle?

What does this have to do with anything? The other poster accused someone
of being racist for posing what I though was an innocent question. Are
their really genetic differences between races that account for sports
benefits/detriments? There certainly seem to be genetic differences
between races in other areas, such as diabetes, heart disease, etc. So,
why not in sports? We tend to think that all people are the same, but we
aren't. I suck at biking, although I enjoy doing it. On the other hand,
I'm great at bodybuilding. Why? Genetics. I gain muscle very easily.
If it happens to me, then why can't these types of things be race-wide?

--
Bob in CT
Remove ".x" to reply

Robb McLeod <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

(Laz) said:

Wondering if anyone can provide any insight/ information regarding why
we don't have more blacks in professional cycling. I asked this
question in bikeforums and got censored ( guess they support racial
under-representation ).Seeing how blacks tend to do very well in track
and field we should expect them to be as gifted in cycling. I don't
really buy the economic arguement, because blacks are not confined to
3rd world nations.
I recall a paramedic instructor for St.Johns said in regards to
olympic swimming medal contenders that blacks generally have a smaller
lung capacity than whites, so this might be a limiting factor for
either endeavor. But I don't know, so any ideas ?

The general leg geometries that make blacks good sprinters and runners
make them poor bicyclists. A long calf does little for you on the
bike.

Sounds more like an engineering challenge than a reason.

I don;t agree at all that it has anything to do with body types or
muscle groups - It is just a foolish argument.
But here are some cracks some another source

Amazon.com: Taboo: Why Black Athletes Dominate Sports and Why We're
Afraid to Talk About It
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/158648026X/qid=1074521720/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/104-0734425-2807104?v=glance&s=books

And here is a link to a piece by the author of that book, Jon Entine,
that is posted on a Web site devoted to running and sets forth some of
his findings and conclusions.

Run-Down: The Story Behind the Amazing Success of Black Athletes, by
Jon Entine
http://run-down.com/guests/je_black_athletes_p1.php

Here are two excerpts from this piece that are specifically related to
swimming:

"Studies have shown that athletes of West African origin hit a
biomechanical wall after about 45 seconds of intense, anaerobic
activity (distances longer than 400-meters in sprinting and all
measurable distances in swimming, in which Africans are believed to be
genetically disadvantage on average) when aerobic skills come into
play." (about 2/3s down the first page of the piece).

"Relative advantages in these physiological and biomechanical
characteristics are a gold mine for athletes who compete in such
anaerobic activities as football, basketball, and sprinting, sports in
which West African blacks clearly excel. However, they also pose
problems for athletes who might want to compete as swimmers (heavier
skeletons and smaller chest cavities could be drags on performance) or
in cold-weather and endurance sports." (third paragraph from the
bottom of the first page)

""Amongst competitors in both track and field events there are large
significant racial differences," Tanner wrote. As nature would have
it, different populations are better suited to excel at anaerobic
activities such as sprinting, jumping, and lifting, than at aerobic
sports such as distance running, cycling, and swimming." (about 1/3
down page two at the above link)

Finally, and importantly, Entine emphasizes the following
qualification of his conclusions:

"[Arthur] Ashe of course is only recognizing what we all intuitively
know unequivocally: Population genetics and ancestry matter, a lot.
Yet it should never be forgotten that genes are not the ultimate
factors in elite performance. While genetics will determine if you
have a chance to be an elite athlete, intelligence, dedication, and
serendipity are the final arbiters of who wins and loses." (near the
bottom of the second page at the above link).

Perfectly logical- Thank you

Robb McLeod <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

(Laz) said:

Wondering if anyone can provide any insight/ information regarding why
we don't have more blacks in professional cycling. I asked this
question in bikeforums and got censored ( guess they support racial
under-representation ).Seeing how blacks tend to do very well in track
and field we should expect them to be as gifted in cycling. I don't
really buy the economic arguement, because blacks are not confined to
3rd world nations.
I recall a paramedic instructor for St.Johns said in regards to
olympic swimming medal contenders that blacks generally have a smaller
lung capacity than whites, so this might be a limiting factor for
either endeavor. But I don't know, so any ideas ?

The general leg geometries that make blacks good sprinters and runners
make them poor bicyclists. A long calf does little for you on the
bike.