CSC is cool

I could only see some sprinters and C. Moreau in the second group. Does
anybody undertand whatCSC was trying (other thta appear in front of the
camera)?

"Ernst Noch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Damn,

say what you will about Mr. 60%, but what his team is the one making the
tour interesting. Oh, and when the succeed in what they are doing today,
it means even more hurt put on certain climbers.

"alex" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I could only see some sprinters and C. Moreau in the second group. Does
anybody undertand whatCSC was trying (other thta appear in front of the
camera)?

On TV Riis said that they went in front to split the peloton but after a few
kilometres the wind wasn't hard enough.

"Mr. 60%". What's that?

HB

alex said:

I could only see some sprinters and C. Moreau in the second group. Does
anybody undertand whatCSC was trying (other thta appear in front of the
camera)?

I thought I there were also some EE colors in the second group. I think
they wanted to drop some of the sprinters, in order to make it easier
for breakaways. A more elaborate / coordinated form of the normal
solo/small group breakaway routine.

"Henrik Jensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"alex" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I could only see some sprinters and C. Moreau in the second group. Does
anybody undertand whatCSC was trying (other thta appear in front of the
camera)?

On TV Riis said that they went in front to split the peloton but after a

few

Quoted message said:

kilometres the wind wasn't hard enough.

"Mr. 60%". What's that?

HB

Something some can't let go. It let's you know how "in-the-know" they are
about doping rumors and cycling in general.

Chris said:

"Henrik Jensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"alex" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I could only see some sprinters and C. Moreau in the second group. Does
anybody undertand whatCSC was trying (other thta appear in front of the
camera)?

On TV Riis said that they went in front to split the peloton but after a

few

Quoted message said:

kilometres the wind wasn't hard enough.

"Mr. 60%". What's that?

HB

It's something which will is often brought forward against Bjarne Riis.
It refers to Haematokrit level. Allegedly this was his nickname in the
peleton. I just mentioned it to spare someone a reply.

Quoted message said:

Something some can't let go. It let's you know how "in-the-know" they are
about doping rumors and cycling in general.

I sincerly just forgot the quotation marks. For the record, I'm not an
"insider" or "in-the-know" and don't want to pretend to be it. I'm just
a fan of this sport.

PS: There's some mistake hidden in the above post.

"Ernst Noch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Chris said:

"Henrik Jensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"alex" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse
news:[email hidden]...

>I could only see some sprinters and C. Moreau in the second group. Does
>anybody undertand whatCSC was trying (other thta appear in front of the
>camera)?
>

On TV Riis said that they went in front to split the peloton but after a

few

Quoted message said:

kilometres the wind wasn't hard enough.

"Mr. 60%". What's that?

HB

It's something which will is often brought forward against Bjarne Riis.
It refers to Haematokrit level. Allegedly this was his nickname in the
peleton. I just mentioned it to spare someone a reply.

Quoted message said:

Something some can't let go. It let's you know how "in-the-know" they

are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

about doping rumors and cycling in general.

I sincerly just forgot the quotation marks. For the record, I'm not an
"insider" or "in-the-know" and don't want to pretend to be it. I'm just
a fan of this sport.

PS: There's some mistake hidden in the above post.

Are you looking for someone to correct your spelling?

Chris said:

"Ernst Noch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Chris said:

"Henrik Jensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

>"alex" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse
>news:[email hidden]...
>
>
>>I could only see some sprinters and C. Moreau in the second group. Does
>>anybody undertand whatCSC was trying (other thta appear in front of the
>>camera)?
>>
>
>On TV Riis said that they went in front to split the peloton but after a

few

>kilometres the wind wasn't hard enough.
>
>"Mr. 60%". What's that?
>
>HB

It's something which will is often brought forward against Bjarne Riis.
It refers to Haematokrit level. Allegedly this was his nickname in the
peleton. I just mentioned it to spare someone a reply.

Quoted message said:

Something some can't let go. It let's you know how "in-the-know" they

are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

about doping rumors and cycling in general.

I sincerly just forgot the quotation marks. For the record, I'm not an
"insider" or "in-the-know" and don't want to pretend to be it. I'm just
a fan of this sport.

PS: There's some mistake hidden in the above post.

Are you looking for someone to correct your spelling?

No, but after <[email hidden]> I decided to get a bit of
obviousness adjustment. Still working on it.

trg said:

Ernst Noch said:

Damn,

say what you will about Mr. 60%, but what his team is the one making
the tour interesting. Oh, and when the succeed in what they are doing
today, it means even more hurt put on certain climbers.

Did anyone see if Bartoli was working in the manoevre?

For what I've seen, it was mainly Voigt, Peron and Piil to do the hard job.

Ernst Noch said:

Damn,

say what you will about Mr. 60%, but what his team is the one making
the tour interesting. Oh, and when the succeed in what they are doing
today, it means even more hurt put on certain climbers.

Did anyone see if Bartoli was working in the manoevre? Since there was a 4th
cat climb a few km from the end, I was thinking that they were trying to
reel in the break and keep the sprinter's team from gaining control so
Bartoli could go for the stage win, since it was a profile that would
particularly suit him.

Chris said:

"Henrik Jensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"alex" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I could only see some sprinters and C. Moreau in the second group. Does
anybody undertand whatCSC was trying (other thta appear in front of the
camera)?

On TV Riis said that they went in front to split the peloton but after a

few

Quoted message said:

kilometres the wind wasn't hard enough.

"Mr. 60%". What's that?

HB

Something some can't let go. It let's you know how "in-the-know" they are
about doping rumors and cycling in general.

Even if he was doped to the gills in his heyday, he is clearly an
aggressive and clever leader too.

JT

Ernst Noch said:

Chris said:

"Henrik Jensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"alex" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse
news:[email hidden]...

>I could only see some sprinters and C. Moreau in the second group. Does
>anybody undertand whatCSC was trying (other thta appear in front of the
>camera)?
>

On TV Riis said that they went in front to split the peloton but after a

few

Quoted message said:

kilometres the wind wasn't hard enough.

"Mr. 60%". What's that?

HB

It's something which will is often brought forward against Bjarne Riis.
It refers to Haematokrit level. Allegedly this was his nickname in the
peleton. I just mentioned it to spare someone a reply.

Quoted message said:

Something some can't let go. It let's you know how "in-the-know" they are
about doping rumors and cycling in general.

I sincerly just forgot the quotation marks. For the record, I'm not an
"insider" or "in-the-know" and don't want to pretend to be it. I'm just
a fan of this sport.

PS: There's some mistake hidden in the above post.

Some kind of spelling eror?

JT

In article <[email hidden]>,

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Chris said:

"Henrik Jensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"alex" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse
news:[email hidden]...
> I could only see some sprinters and C. Moreau in the second group. Does
> anybody undertand whatCSC was trying (other thta appear in front of the
> camera)?
>

On TV Riis said that they went in front to split the peloton but after a

few

Quoted message said:

kilometres the wind wasn't hard enough.

"Mr. 60%". What's that?

HB

Something some can't let go. It let's you know how "in-the-know" they are
about doping rumors and cycling in general.

Even if he was doped to the gills in his heyday, he is clearly an
aggressive and clever leader too.

JT

I definitely agree with this, but there really isn't a lot of evidence
that he was doped, just rumors and speculation. The main source for the
doping speculation seems to be because he "came out of nowhere" to win the
Tour. But if you look at his palmares, you can see a gradual progression.
Everything before the '96 season was ridden as a domestique, too.
http://www.trap-friis.dk/cykling/hof/danmark.Riis.htm

That being said, however, I am not saying that he was 100% clean. But I
don't know for sure that he did use. The fact that he rode for Gewiss in
their heyday does lend some suspicion to the question.

--
tanx,
Howard

So far, so good, so what?

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

"Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Chris said:

Something some can't let go. It let's you know how "in-the-know" they

are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

about doping rumors and cycling in general.

Even if he was doped to the gills in his heyday, he is clearly an
aggressive and clever leader too.

I definitely agree with this, but there really isn't a lot of evidence
that he was doped, just rumors and speculation. The main source for the
doping speculation seems to be because he "came out of nowhere" to win the
Tour. But if you look at his palmares, you can see a gradual progression.
Everything before the '96 season was ridden as a domestique, too.
http://www.trap-friis.dk/cykling/hof/danmark.Riis.htm

That being said, however, I am not saying that he was 100% clean. But I
don't know for sure that he did use. The fact that he rode for Gewiss in
their heyday does lend some suspicion to the question.

This is a pretty good discussion about this subject. I don't think that the
"coming out of nowhere" theory holds any water at all since he was in the
top ten for a couple of years.

And regardless of what he did then, the only thing under discussion now is
what he is doing now. And he seems to be getting far more out of riders than
any other DS. Since Bobby Julich is Mr. Clean (he's one of those guys who
wants to eat only "organic" vegetables without any hint of chemicals about
them and that sort of thing) I don't believe that Riis is getting results by
putting his riders on better dope.

As John says, I think that Bjarne Riis is a clever and intelligent DS who
can motivate his men. I also think that one of the ways he does that is by
not forcing the team to ride for a single leader but instead let's them go
for their own victories. The down side of that is that his team will never
compete in the GC because of that. On the other hand, they really don't have
any leader capable of seriously challenging for the GC anyway so they might
as well have riders in breaks and going for stage wins anyway.

Quoted message said:

they really don't have
any leader capable of seriously challenging for the GC anyway so they might
as well . . .

Basso? Hasn't he been top 10 before, and done well in one of the other GTs,
too? I guess it depends on how conservatively one interprets "seriously
challenging" . . .

Howard Kveck said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> "Mr. 60%". What's that?
>
> HB

Something some can't let go. It let's you know how "in-the-know" they are
about doping rumors and cycling in general.

Even if he was doped to the gills in his heyday, he is clearly an
aggressive and clever leader too.

JT

Quoted message said:

I definitely agree with this, but there really isn't a lot of evidence
that he was doped, just rumors and speculation. The main source for the
doping speculation seems to be because he "came out of nowhere" to win the
Tour. But if you look at his palmares, you can see a gradual progression.
Everything before the '96 season was ridden as a domestique, too.
http://www.trap-friis.dk/cykling/hof/danmark.Riis.htm

Quoted message said:

That being said, however, I am not saying that he was 100% clean. But I
don't know for sure that he did use. The fact that he rode for Gewiss in
their heyday does lend some suspicion to the question.

The Mr 60% nickname was made up by the Festina riders in 96/97 - as we
remeber they were doped well above the 50% limit. They couldn't
understand why Riis still beat them in 96 and the spring of 97
(Amstel), the only explenation they could think of was that they
imagined thas his HC value was arround 60%.

When the 50% limit was enforced from 97 very few riders supported it
publicly - the only ones i can remember is Riis and Richard.

Actualley the nickname says more about the Festia riders approach to
doping than Riis's.

The evidence of Riis allereged use of doping wassen't as strong as the
evidence against LA.

Unfortunatly people remeber the nickname but they forgot who made it
up, and what the people who made it up did.

Take a look of a photograph of Riis in 93 (when he came out of
Fignon's shadow and placed 5th) and compare it to a picture from 95 or 97.
He lost a lot of weight in 95/96 and allmost looked like a surviving holocast
victim. The weight difference is a lot bigger than the difference between LA
99-04 and his pre-cancer weight.

Until 95 Riis was a very decent rider rinding in support for
Fignon (from 88 until Fignon signed with Gatorade to support Bugno)
but the without the confidence to win races himself. Riis was one of the
best payed supportriders in Pro cycling in those days.

Btw Riis didn't win in 96 because of suppirior strength, but because he
was a very skilled tatical rider who was able to analyze the race and
figure out how Indurain could be beaten.
It was the same tactical skills which he used to bring Ulrich to 2.
place and Ulrichs victory i 97. Without Riis brains Ulrich wouldn't have
finished 2. in 96 nor won in 97.

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>

PowerMac G5: 1.6GHz, 1.25GB RAM, 80GB Disk, 8x DVD+/-RW, Bluetooth mus
+ tastatur, FX5200 Ultra, iSight, eyeTV200 & Lacie Photon18Vision (TFT).

In article <[email hidden]>,

Morten Reippuert Knudsen said:

The Mr 60% nickname was made up by the Festina riders in 96/97 - as we
remeber they were doped well above the 50% limit. They couldn't
understand why Riis still beat them in 96 and the spring of 97
(Amstel), the only explenation they could think of was that they
imagined thas his HC value was arround 60%.

That had to have been frustrating for Festina. Funny that they'd
automatically assume that the guy who's beating them when they were
cheating like mad had to have been cheating even worse.

Quoted message said:

When the 50% limit was enforced from 97 very few riders supported it
publicly - the only ones i can remember is Riis and Richard.

Actualley the nickname says more about the Festia riders approach to
doping than Riis's.

The evidence of Riis allereged use of doping wassen't as strong as the
evidence against LA.

Unfortunatly people remeber the nickname but they forgot who made it
up, and what the people who made it up did.

Sad but true.

Quoted message said:

Take a look of a photograph of Riis in 93 (when he came out of
Fignon's shadow and placed 5th) and compare it to a picture from 95 or 97.
He lost a lot of weight in 95/96 and allmost looked like a surviving holocast
victim. The weight difference is a lot bigger than the difference between LA
99-04 and his pre-cancer weight.

Until 95 Riis was a very decent rider rinding in support for
Fignon (from 88 until Fignon signed with Gatorade to support Bugno)
but the without the confidence to win races himself. Riis was one of the
best payed supportriders in Pro cycling in those days.

I do remember reading some comments by Fignon about Riis just after they
went their own ways. He seemed to think quite highly of Riis.

Quoted message said:

Btw Riis didn't win in 96 because of suppirior strength, but because he
was a very skilled tatical rider who was able to analyze the race and
figure out how Indurain could be beaten.
It was the same tactical skills which he used to bring Ulrich to 2.
place and Ulrichs victory i 97. Without Riis brains Ulrich wouldn't have
finished 2. in 96 nor won in 97.

It's too bad he just didn't have quite the same form in '97 as he did in
'96. I really wanted him to win it again. But seeing him win Amstel the way
he did was pretty cool, too. Certainly not something you would ever expect
the defending Tour winner to do in this day.

--
tanx,
Howard

So far, so good, so what?

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

In article <[email hidden]>,

Tom Kunich said:

"Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:45:43 -0700, "Chris"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
>Something some can't let go. It let's you know how "in-the-know" they

are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>about doping rumors and cycling in general.

Even if he was doped to the gills in his heyday, he is clearly an
aggressive and clever leader too.

I definitely agree with this, but there really isn't a lot of evidence
that he was doped, just rumors and speculation. The main source for the
doping speculation seems to be because he "came out of nowhere" to win the
Tour. But if you look at his palmares, you can see a gradual progression.
Everything before the '96 season was ridden as a domestique, too.
http://www.trap-friis.dk/cykling/hof/danmark.Riis.htm

That being said, however, I am not saying that he was 100% clean. But I
don't know for sure that he did use. The fact that he rode for Gewiss in
their heyday does lend some suspicion to the question.

This is a pretty good discussion about this subject. I don't think that the
"coming out of nowhere" theory holds any water at all since he was in the
top ten for a couple of years.

And regardless of what he did then, the only thing under discussion now is
what he is doing now. And he seems to be getting far more out of riders than
any other DS. Since Bobby Julich is Mr. Clean (he's one of those guys who
wants to eat only "organic" vegetables without any hint of chemicals about
them and that sort of thing) I don't believe that Riis is getting results by
putting his riders on better dope.

As John says, I think that Bjarne Riis is a clever and intelligent DS who
can motivate his men. I also think that one of the ways he does that is by
not forcing the team to ride for a single leader but instead let's them go
for their own victories. The down side of that is that his team will never
compete in the GC because of that. On the other hand, they really don't have
any leader capable of seriously challenging for the GC anyway so they might
as well have riders in breaks and going for stage wins anyway.

I wouldn't go so far as to say they'll "never compete in the GC." Riis
has had a couple of pretty good GC results with Hamilton (2nd Giro, 4th
TdF). Obviously, with Hamilton gone, that changes things. But he does have
Sastre and Basso. I don't see them as being winners this year (or even
podium, but they could be close), but I think they have the talent to do it
in the next few years. I will say I have somewhat lower expectations for
Sastre, though. What they are doing right now, to me, is getting the most
publicity they can during the part of the race that theoretically should
have little effect on GC (Mayo might not agree with that, though). There is
some risk in doing that. But with Voight and Piil off freelancing, they are
getting plenty of exposure. Sastre and Basso should be able to be
reasonably well protected in these stages if they keep the remainder of
their guys around them and stick close to LANCE and Ullrich's more focused
teams on the road. Riis certainly seems to know how to get the most out of
his guys and whatever the situation is on the road.

--
tanx,
Howard

So far, so good, so what?

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

As John says, I think that Bjarne Riis is a clever and intelligent DS who
can motivate his men. I also think that one of the ways he does that is by
not forcing the team to ride for a single leader but instead let's them go
for their own victories. The down side of that is that his team will never
compete in the GC because of that. On the other hand, they really don't have
any leader capable of seriously challenging for the GC anyway so they might
as well have riders in breaks and going for stage wins anyway.

It true CSC is racing like they don't have a designated leader (for GC
or sprints).

But as we see with Fassa, results can be better without a leader.

Pozzatto already won and Flecha and Kirchen came close once Petacchi
was out of the picture (plus Cancellara's prologue).

in article [email hidden], Tom Kunich
at [email hidden] wrote on 7/11/04 1:44 PM:

Quoted message said:

"Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:45:43 -0700, "Chris"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
> Something some can't let go. It let's you know how "in-the-know" they

are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> about doping rumors and cycling in general.

Even if he was doped to the gills in his heyday, he is clearly an
aggressive and clever leader too.

I definitely agree with this, but there really isn't a lot of evidence
that he was doped, just rumors and speculation. The main source for the
doping speculation seems to be because he "came out of nowhere" to win the
Tour. But if you look at his palmares, you can see a gradual progression.
Everything before the '96 season was ridden as a domestique, too.
http://www.trap-friis.dk/cykling/hof/danmark.Riis.htm

That being said, however, I am not saying that he was 100% clean. But I
don't know for sure that he did use. The fact that he rode for Gewiss in
their heyday does lend some suspicion to the question.

This is a pretty good discussion about this subject. I don't think that the
"coming out of nowhere" theory holds any water at all since he was in the
top ten for a couple of years.

And regardless of what he did then, the only thing under discussion now is
what he is doing now. And he seems to be getting far more out of riders than
any other DS. Since Bobby Julich is Mr. Clean (he's one of those guys who
wants to eat only "organic" vegetables without any hint of chemicals about
them and that sort of thing) I don't believe that Riis is getting results by
putting his riders on better dope.

As John says, I think that Bjarne Riis is a clever and intelligent DS who
can motivate his men. I also think that one of the ways he does that is by
not forcing the team to ride for a single leader but instead let's them go
for their own victories. The down side of that is that his team will never
compete in the GC because of that. On the other hand, they really don't have
any leader capable of seriously challenging for the GC anyway so they might
as well have riders in breaks and going for stage wins anyway.

Put another way, the CSC Team is like Landbouwkrediet with a deeper talent
pool and a better DS...

-Sonarrat.