Road Rage

[email hidden] (Cliff) wrote in news:55f525b6.0304201458.34f775b8 @posting.google.com:

Quoted message said:

Questions:

1. Am I insane for jeopardizing my life by riding in traffic?

Possibly, but it's a good insanity!

Quoted message said:

2. Do I have an equal legal right to be on the open road with cars?

Yes.

Quoted message said:

-- Cliff

We have a 40 mile loop we sometimes ride here. On the beach portion we ride next to a
bike/pedestrian path. It is rare not to have someone yell at to get on the bike path. The problem
is, that's not where a cyclist running along at 20mph or so should be. There's sand blown accross
the path, people walking dogs on leashes, and around 100 driveways and 40 side streets that cross
the bike path. We usually ignore the offending motorist. I did have one guy slow down and match pace
with me, roll down his window and say "Do you have a problem with the bike path or something?" I
said "Yep," and just stared at him. I guess he hadn't rehearsed a snappy answer, because he just
drove off.

In north america, fossil fuel oxidation takes precedence over human powered endeavours. Thus, you
will receive little to no respect while riding on this excuse of a continent. My advice: move to the
holy land (europe).

--
--------------------------
Andre Charlebois BPE, MCSE4.0, CNA, A+ webmaster for Triathlon New Brunswick www.TriNB.com "Cliff"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Today I was finishing up a great workout on the bike when out of the blue this a--hole yells out
his car window to me "Get on the Sidewalk, will ya!" as he blows by at mach-3.

Now I'll admit I was going down a hill on the left side of the traffic lane preparing to make a
left hand turn, but I thought I had a legal right to be on the road.

I am pretty bold about riding in traffic and have always felt that as long as I obey the traffic
laws and give flagrant hand signals, I was within my rights as a bike rider to be on the road and
should be "reasonably" safe. I also rode a motorcycle for many years so being on two wheels near
cars doesn't particularly freak me out, but this incident started me wondering...

Questions:

1. Am I insane for jeopardizing my life by riding in traffic?
2. Do I have an equal legal right to be on the open road with cars?

-- Cliff

[email hidden] (Cliff) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Today I was finishing up a great workout on the bike when out of the blue this a--hole yells out
his car window to me "Get on the Sidewalk, will ya!" as he blows by at mach-3.

Now I'll admit I was going down a hill on the left side of the traffic lane preparing to make a
left hand turn, but I thought I had a legal right to be on the road.

I am pretty bold about riding in traffic and have always felt that as long as I obey the traffic
laws and give flagrant hand signals, I was within my rights as a bike rider to be on the road and
should be "reasonably" safe. I also rode a motorcycle for many years so being on two wheels near
cars doesn't particularly freak me out, but this incident started me wondering...

Questions:

1. Am I insane for jeopardizing my life by riding in traffic?

Insane... that's a bit harsh. But, if you have no other options then you just have to be careful

Quoted message said:

2. Do I have an equal legal right to be on the open road with cars?

In theory (at least in most states), yes. The reality is that most cars don't know that you have the
same rights as a car. The bigger reality is that they out weigh you by a few thousand pounds.

Quoted message said:

-- Cliff

The good news is that the driver noticed you... insults and all... I don't mind being honk at.
It only indicates they see me. And, I always ride within the law... when it's reasonable do so
(that is).

FWIW Joe Moya

Yes and definitely Yes

"Cliff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Today I was finishing up a great workout on the bike when out of the blue this a--hole yells out
his car window to me "Get on the Sidewalk, will ya!" as he blows by at mach-3.

Now I'll admit I was going down a hill on the left side of the traffic lane preparing to make a
left hand turn, but I thought I had a legal right to be on the road.

I am pretty bold about riding in traffic and have always felt that as long as I obey the traffic
laws and give flagrant hand signals, I was within my rights as a bike rider to be on the road and
should be "reasonably" safe. I also rode a motorcycle for many years so being on two wheels near
cars doesn't particularly freak me out, but this incident started me wondering...

Questions:

1. Am I insane for jeopardizing my life by riding in traffic?
2. Do I have an equal legal right to be on the open road with cars?

-- Cliff

I both bike and drive in San Francisco....some bike commuters in SF can be just as big of [censored]
as some drivers. I had a commuter on a bike cut me off the other day and then jaw with me about it.
As much as idiots in cars who honk, and turn right in front of you [censored] me off when I'm on a bike,
it seems there's also some on 2 wheels who can be just as bad (at least in SF).

"Frank Tantillo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Yes and definitely Yes

"Cliff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Today I was finishing up a great workout on the bike when out of the blue this a--hole yells out
his car window to me "Get on the Sidewalk, will ya!" as he blows by at mach-3.

Now I'll admit I was going down a hill on the left side of the traffic lane preparing to make a
left hand turn, but I thought I had a legal right to be on the road.

I am pretty bold about riding in traffic and have always felt that as long as I obey the traffic
laws and give flagrant hand signals, I was within my rights as a bike rider to be on the road
and should be "reasonably" safe. I also rode a motorcycle for many years so being on two wheels
near cars doesn't particularly freak me out, but this incident started me wondering...

Questions:

1. Am I insane for jeopardizing my life by riding in traffic?
2. Do I have an equal legal right to be on the open road with cars?

-- Cliff

You idiot you could've gotten yourself and others killed. Stay over on the right unless you have a
death wish.

[email hidden] (Cliff) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Today I was finishing up a great workout on the bike when out of the blue this a--hole yells out
his car window to me "Get on the Sidewalk, will ya!" as he blows by at mach-3.

Now I'll admit I was going down a hill on the left side of the traffic lane preparing to make a
left hand turn, but I thought I had a legal right to be on the road.

I am pretty bold about riding in traffic and have always felt that as long as I obey the traffic
laws and give flagrant hand signals, I was within my rights as a bike rider to be on the road and
should be "reasonably" safe. I also rode a motorcycle for many years so being on two wheels near
cars doesn't particularly freak me out, but this incident started me wondering...

Questions:

1. Am I insane for jeopardizing my life by riding in traffic?
2. Do I have an equal legal right to be on the open road with cars?

-- Cliff

[email hidden] (Cliff) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Now I'll admit I was going down a hill on the left side of the traffic lane preparing to make a
left hand turn, but I thought I had a legal right to be on the road.

I can't speak for the laws where you are - but in the states that I have lived in (VA, MA, and NY),
bicycles have to follow the same laws that cars do. It is illegal for them to be on the sidewalks or
through crosswalks unless the riders dismount and walk the bike, effectively becoming anohter
pedestrian.

So that would mean that the driver was wrong in that you shouldn't have been up on the sidewalk...
But it would then also mean that you were in the wrong for going the wrong direction against
traffic. Were you in a car and you saw a car doing the same thing that you did on the bike, you too
likely wouldn't have been too psyched.

That said, I don't personally see anything with what you did (aside from the whole legal side).

In VA I was hit by a car once, mostly my fault - I was going with traffic up a hill. (I also hit a
car once... a parked car - it was parked illegally and I had the option of me hitting a moving
garbage truck in traffic, me hitting a parked car partly on the sidewalk and partly in the road, or
I had the choice of going up onto the sidewalk and hitting an elderly couple. I chose what I figured
would be the least life threatening, and the lowest cost to me in court. It hurt, but nobody else
was hurt and I survived. The parts of VA I was in were pretty bicycle agnostic (Blacksburg and
Harrisonburg).

In NY I was hit by a car 2 times. On the same road, same spot. Same time of day - but different days
in the same month. The first time it was a Camero/Firebird type car - they purposely sideswiped me
into a construction site. I hit a big pile of sand and flipped into it. No real injuries. The next
time was the same spot, but a big black pickup truck. That time I missed a majority of the
construction site, but went down a flight of concrete steps - upright on the bike. Scary, but no
injuries. This was in Rochester NY. I ended up getting a helmet mirror to deal with it and near the
same spot after that, I noticed in the mirror a car coming towards me with a guy starting to lean
out the window - I don't know what he was going to do, but I figured it didn't bode well for me - so
I picked up my water bottle and then watched the mirror - as they got close, I pressed as far away
from them as I could and sprayed the guy with the water bottle. They didn't stop and I was glad to
be done riding that summer.

From my experience with it all (largely commuting - no real racing experience at all), I would say
assume that the cars can't see you at all and you have a good start.

Eric Smith said:

[email hidden] (Cliff) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Now I'll admit I was going down a hill on the left side of the traffic lane preparing to make a
left hand turn, but I thought I had a legal right to be on the road.

I can't speak for the laws where you are - but in the states that I have lived in (VA, MA, and NY),
bicycles have to follow the same laws that cars do. It is illegal for them to be on the sidewalks
or through crosswalks unless the riders dismount and walk the bike, effectively becoming anohter
pedestrian.

So that would mean that the driver was wrong in that you shouldn't have been up on the sidewalk...
But it would then also mean that you

Uh, Eric, how the heck did you get the idea he was on the sidewalk. He was in traffic, in the #1
lane, preparing to make a left turn. This is exactly how it should be done, but since he is probably
moving slower than the speeding cars, he ran into a jerk.
--
Jason O'Rourke www.jor.com

[email hidden] (Jason O'Rourke) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Uh, Eric, how the heck did you get the idea he was on the sidewalk. He was in traffic, in the #1
lane, preparing to make a left turn. This is exactly how it should be done, but since he is
probably moving slower than the speeding cars, he ran into a jerk.

Sorry - I misread it as he was coming down the left against traffic.

As for the sidewalk - that was what a driver had yelled at him and caused the angst in the first
place. Hence the comment in that the driver was in the wrong.

In the end, yup - sounds like he was doing everything right.

[email hidden] (Eric Smith) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Jason O'Rourke) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Uh, Eric, how the heck did you get the idea he was on the sidewalk. He was in traffic, in the #1
lane, preparing to make a left turn. This is exactly how it should be done, but since he is
probably moving slower than the speeding cars, he ran into a jerk.

Sorry - I misread it as he was coming down the left against traffic.

As for the sidewalk - that was what a driver had yelled at him and caused the angst in the first
place. Hence the comment in that the driver was in the wrong.

In the end, yup - sounds like he was doing everything right.

Well, I thought I was in the right, but maybe "Dead Right" is a less than desireable place to be. I
think I'm going to make bicycle lanes my personal crusade for the next few years.

-- Cliff

Cliff said:

Well, I thought I was in the right, but maybe "Dead Right" is a less than desireable place to be. I
think I'm going to make bicycle lanes my personal crusade for the next few years.

That's not a solution, Cliff. Then every time this [censored] sees you, instead of shouting 'get back
on the sidewalk,' he'll scream 'get back

Bicyclists are better served by roads with adequete shoulders, rather than bike lane routes that go
no where we want to go.

--
Jason O'Rourke www.jor.com

[email hidden] (Jason O'Rourke) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>... <SNIP-SNIP>

Quoted message said:

That's not a solution, Cliff. Then every time this [censored] sees you, instead of shouting 'get back
on the sidewalk,' he'll scream 'get back

Quoted message said:

Bicyclists are better served by roads with adequete shoulders, rather than bike lane routes that
go no where we want to go.

We don't really have bike lanes in Atlanta, but I have noticed them elsewhere. What I have seen is
that automobiles use them as an extension of parking lots.

That is, when leaving a parking lot, drivers edge all the way into the bike lane, while waiting for
a gap in traffic. Sometimes they have to do this to improve their view. I suspect that other drivers
are just not thinking when they do this.

I think bike lanes were developed with [low speed] bike-commuters in mind.

Maybe it is me? I think that the "wider" you make the road or the larger you make the car, the less
disciplined drivers tend to be in managing their vehicle/speed within the lane. When you make a bike
lane, many drivers "absorb" it as part of the driving lane. This is especially true of heavy
equipment: cement mixers, logging trucks, cranes etc.

rsquared

I don't know what state you live in, but in NJ, bicycles have the same rights as well as the same
responsibilities as cars on the road. Many, many automobile drivers do not realize this, and feel
the same way that guy did. However, riding on the left against traffic is technically illegal, and I
feel dangerous. I have ridden in traffic quite a lot, and the first thing to keep in mind is your
safety. After that, you can travel just as the motor vehicles do, signalling as you go.

Be safe and enjoy the road!

"Cliff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Today I was finishing up a great workout on the bike when out of the blue this a--hole yells out
his car window to me "Get on the Sidewalk, will ya!" as he blows by at mach-3.

Now I'll admit I was going down a hill on the left side of the traffic lane preparing to make a
left hand turn, but I thought I had a legal right to be on the road.

I am pretty bold about riding in traffic and have always felt that as long as I obey the traffic
laws and give flagrant hand signals, I was within my rights as a bike rider to be on the road and
should be "reasonably" safe. I also rode a motorcycle for many years so being on two wheels near
cars doesn't particularly freak me out, but this incident started me wondering...

Questions:

1. Am I insane for jeopardizing my life by riding in traffic?
2. Do I have an equal legal right to be on the open road with cars?

-- Cliff

Could you claim you were legally defending yourself if you carry a firearm on the road? If a car tried to kill you by running you over or swiping, you could pull your gun... I know it doesn't make particular sense, but that's what I feel like doing sometimes. I'd like to take a whole lane on a 2 or 3 lane road, but i'm pretty sure they would run me flat over. But sometimes, I feel realy awkward trying to ride in a 6 inch width next to the road and some idiot goes *right* by me doing 80.

Cecil

"Xeys" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
| Could you claim you were legally defending yourself if you carry a firearm on the road? If a car
| tried to kill you by running you over or swiping, you could pull your gun... I know it doesn't
| make particular sense, but that's what I feel like doing sometimes. I'd like to take a whole lane
| on a 2 or 3 lane road, but i'm pretty sure they would run me flat over. But sometimes, I feel
| realy awkward trying to ride in a 6 inch width next to the road and some idiot goes *right* by me
| doing 80.
|
| Cecil
Carrying a gun is one thing, pulling it another, using it: quite another thing. I am not a legal
expert, but I believe most sucsessful legal defenses of using a gun(or any deadly weapon) for
protection must first prove you were thrown into a life threatening situation where fleeing was not
an option. Going into a bar, starting a fight, and then shooting someone to protect yourself because
it is what you ".....feel like doing sometimes..." is probably, and rightfully going to bring great
criminal, and civil problems to you. And now that you've publicly announced your idea, in the event
you actually do something, you could be accused of premeditation..... Shooting at a car, after it
has passed(threat ended) is a no-no. Arguing that shooting at a car (even pulling a gun),was the
most effective way to avoid the danger of the oncoming car-as opposed to taking evasive action while
riding-is an argument I'd like to hear. Further, imagine you're the motorist driving
along...someone-bicyclist/ pedestrian- on the side of the road, in front of you is pointing/shooting
a gun at you....What is a reasonable thing to do to protect yourself?...

As you wrote: "...it doesn't make particular sense..." Personally, if I had to consider such
actions, I'd find another road. ED3

I believe most cyclists who "pack heat" do so more for fear of drivers than fear of the cars. I am
talking about the guy who stops, gets out of his car, and seeks a violent confrontation.

I have been cycling in Atlanta for almost twenty years. Although the quality of cycling continues to
deteriorate, the scenario I presented above has been EXTREMELY rare. I feel far more threatened by
negligence than malevolence. A gun can't help me there! : )

I own a handgun; I also have a permit to carry it. I would NOT consider carrying it on a bike ride.

Your judgement and circumstances may lead you to do otherwise. Before you carry, please show the
responsibility and maturity to take a safety course - - even if the law does not require it.

If you do choose to carry a firearm on a bike ride, I think any fellow cyclists are morally
entitled to know about it. I am not talking about "showing off". There is inherent risk, and they
should know.

Carrying a gun will not give you "comfort". If anything, it adds a new dimension of stress. You
begin to worry how every interaction will play out; it is impossible to relax.

Too many people think that they can end a confrontation by raising the muzzle in order to
intimidate. Unfortunately, it can and does keep escalating from there.

I have made my decision; some of the points I mention here factored into it. You will have to make
your own decision.

rsquared

Some general remarks not specifically directed towards:

"Edward Dike, III" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > Shooting at a car, after it
has passed(threat ended) is a no-no.

Quoted message said:

Arguing that shooting at a car (even pulling a gun),was the most effective way to avoid the danger
of the oncoming car-as opposed to taking evasive action while riding-is an argument I'd like to
hear. Further, imagine you're the motorist driving along...someone-bicyclist/ pedestrian- on the
side of the road, in front of you is pointing/shooting a gun at you....What is a reasonable thing
to do to protect yourself?...

As you wrote: "...it doesn't make particular sense..." Personally, if I had to consider such
actions, I'd find another road. ED3

I merely just released some steam. In no way would I advocate this. Actually, building goodwill with drivers everywhere could save your life one day. I understand this. I also know that were someone to actually do it, they would be presenting a danger to themselves as well as countless numbers of athletes who may oneday have to deal with this same driver. I was merely blowing off some steam...

ps... I wish the weather would make up it's mind... rain or shine, which is it???

In article <[email hidden]>,

Xeys said:

I merely just released some steam. In no way would I advocate this. Actually, building goodwill
with drivers everywhere could save your life one day. I understand this. I also know that were
someone to actually do it, they would be presenting a danger to themselves as well as countless
numbers of athletes who may oneday have to deal with this same driver. I was merely blowing off
some steam...

I missed the start of this thread, but lately I've been going out of my way to give a courtesy wave
to drivers who yield to me when I have right of way or who otherwise do things that make it safer
for me to be on my bike around them. I still, however, always assume the driver will do the
stupidest thing possible.

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night, and party every day. Then it was every other day. . . ."

- Homer J. Simpson