Re: "stabilizing" a stratus?

"Frodo22222" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The fork rake is the problem. A change to a straight fork might work.

Twitchy

Quoted message said:

bikes can be slowed down by adding trail. The problem is picking the right
amount. Some riders object to the other forces that occur with increased

trail.

Quoted message said:

Many recumbent builders seem to prefer criterium quick handling. IM not so

HO,

Quoted message said:

this is why recumbents haven't been widely accepted.

Bill Patterson
home.earthlink.net/~wm.patterson/

Bill, you have just stated above what I have often thought myself. Some
recumbents are so quick handling that you practically have to have circus
performer skills to ride them. Why the hell can't the designers of
recumbents get the trail right? Surely there must be a formula which is
optimum for trail for everybody regardless of the particular configuration
of the recumbent. A twitchy bike will drive a normal person crazy!

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota

"Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Frodo22222" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The fork rake is the problem. A change to a straight fork might work.

Twitchy

Quoted message said:

bikes can be slowed down by adding trail. The problem is picking the

right

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

amount. Some riders object to the other forces that occur with increased

trail.

Quoted message said:

Many recumbent builders seem to prefer criterium quick handling. IM not

so

Quoted message said:

HO,

Quoted message said:

this is why recumbents haven't been widely accepted.

Bill Patterson
home.earthlink.net/~wm.patterson/

Bill, you have just stated above what I have often thought myself. Some
recumbents are so quick handling that you practically have to have circus
performer skills to ride them. Why the hell can't the designers of
recumbents get the trail right? Surely there must be a formula which is
optimum for trail for everybody regardless of the particular configuration
of the recumbent. A twitchy bike will drive a normal person crazy!

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Perhaps the problem isn't that you need to have circus performer skills but
instead you have lousy coordination.

"Mark Leuck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:XcYJc.107109$XM6.10040@attbi_s53...

Quoted message said:

"Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Frodo22222" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The fork rake is the problem. A change to a straight fork might work.

Twitchy

Quoted message said:

bikes can be slowed down by adding trail. The problem is picking the

right

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

amount. Some riders object to the other forces that occur with

increased

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

trail.

Quoted message said:

Many recumbent builders seem to prefer criterium quick handling. IM

not

Quoted message said:

so

Quoted message said:

HO,

Quoted message said:

this is why recumbents haven't been widely accepted.

Bill Patterson
home.earthlink.net/~wm.patterson/

Bill, you have just stated above what I have often thought myself. Some
recumbents are so quick handling that you practically have to have

circus

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

performer skills to ride them. Why the hell can't the designers of
recumbents get the trail right? Surely there must be a formula which is
optimum for trail for everybody regardless of the particular

configuration

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of the recumbent. A twitchy bike will drive a normal person crazy!

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Perhaps the problem isn't that you need to have circus performer skills

but

Quoted message said:

instead you have lousy coordination.

Here is someone who in the past has threatened to kill file me. But of
course that is not possible if you are an intelligent person. So Mark passes
muster on that score.

I am totally in the mainstream when it comes to coordination and bicycle
riding skills. Yet I continue to object to twitchy bikes. I don't believe
there is any reason for it. The real problem is that some recumbent bike
designers are not up to the mark. In other words, they do not know what they
are doing. They remind me of people who are constantly reinventing the
wheel - and getting it wrong! For heaven's sakes, it cannot be rocket
science to get the trail right! And why the hell can't recumbent designers
get the tiller right either?

Recumbent designers should all be consulting with another Minnesotan by the
name of Mark Stonich who knows what the hell he is talking about with
respect to these very elementary design considerations.

Frankly, I am fed up with recumbent designers who cannot get the trail right
and who cannot get the tiller right. Such designers ought to be taken out
and horse whipped to death for all the aggravation they cause. I have lost
all patience with them! The problem is that they love to build the g.d.
things, but they don't put any effort into designing them. May the devil
take them!

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota

My class was all about how to design a bike with geometry different from the
upright. The airplane guys call it "HANDLING QUALITIES". When I wrote the class
note, I didn't have Mark Stonich's information. However, tiller is only one way
to add control centering spring to slow down the responsiveness.

I did find a simplified equation for predicting a bikes twitchyness. It's in
the "Lords of the chainring".

We find that bike manufactureres go out of business when their bikes aren't up
to snuff. I'm glad that I don't have to be a businessman.
Bill Patterson

"Frodo22222" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My class was all about how to design a bike with geometry different from

the

Quoted message said:

upright. The airplane guys call it "HANDLING QUALITIES". When I wrote the

class

Quoted message said:

note, I didn't have Mark Stonich's information. However, tiller is only

one way

Quoted message said:

to add control centering spring to slow down the responsiveness.

I did find a simplified equation for predicting a bikes twitchyness. It's

in

Quoted message said:

the "Lords of the chainring".

We find that bike manufactureres go out of business when their bikes

aren't up

Quoted message said:

to snuff. I'm glad that I don't have to be a businessman.

Bill Patterson

Bill, I am convinced that trail and tiller for recumbents is what make or
breaks them (other than seat comfort of course). This cannot be rocket
science. A curse on all those who prefer twitchy bikes. These very
elementary considerations were solved over a hundred years ago with respect
to uprights.

The kind of guys who design and manufacture recumbents are the most pig
headed bunch of guys who ever existed. They design them for themselves and
do not consider what might be best for the vast majority of cyclists who
want a bike that is easy to handle above all else.

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota

"Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Perhaps the problem isn't that you need to have circus performer skills

but

Quoted message said:

instead you have lousy coordination.

Here is someone who in the past has threatened to kill file me. But of
course that is not possible if you are an intelligent person. So Mark

passes

Quoted message said:

muster on that score.

I did have you kill filed however your moronic posts are far too
entertaining to miss

Quoted message said:

I am totally in the mainstream when it comes to coordination and bicycle
riding skills. Yet I continue to object to twitchy bikes. I don't believe
there is any reason for it. The real problem is that some recumbent bike
designers are not up to the mark. In other words, they do not know what

they

Quoted message said:

are doing. They remind me of people who are constantly reinventing the
wheel - and getting it wrong! For heaven's sakes, it cannot be rocket
science to get the trail right! And why the hell can't recumbent designers
get the tiller right either?

So which specific brands and bikes are too twitchy? That is something on a
more personal nature, to some a bike might be twitchy to others not

Quoted message said:

Recumbent designers should all be consulting with another Minnesotan by

the

Quoted message said:

name of Mark Stonich who knows what the hell he is talking about with
respect to these very elementary design considerations.

Quoted message said:

Frankly, I am fed up with recumbent designers who cannot get the trail

right

Quoted message said:

and who cannot get the tiller right. Such designers ought to be taken out
and horse whipped to death for all the aggravation they cause. I have lost
all patience with them! The problem is that they love to build the g.d.
things, but they don't put any effort into designing them. May the devil
take them!

Umm yea sure

"Mark Leuck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:w84Kc.93803$JR4.65308@attbi_s54...

Quoted message said:

"Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Perhaps the problem isn't that you need to have circus performer

skills

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but

Quoted message said:

instead you have lousy coordination.

Here is someone who in the past has threatened to kill file me. But of
course that is not possible if you are an intelligent person. So Mark

passes

Quoted message said:

muster on that score.

I did have you kill filed however your moronic posts are far too
entertaining to miss.

I mean to be entertaining if nothing else. I wish I could say the same for
all the other posters here. God only knows how boring they are for the most
part. You are so-so only. Could be better. You need to work on your
communication skills. Try not to write anything that you wouldn't want to
read.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I am totally in the mainstream when it comes to coordination and bicycle
riding skills. Yet I continue to object to twitchy bikes. I don't

believe

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

there is any reason for it. The real problem is that some recumbent bike
designers are not up to the mark. In other words, they do not know what

they

Quoted message said:

are doing. They remind me of people who are constantly reinventing the
wheel - and getting it wrong! For heaven's sakes, it cannot be rocket
science to get the trail right! And why the hell can't recumbent

designers

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

get the tiller right either?

So which specific brands and bikes are too twitchy? That is something on a
more personal nature, to some a bike might be twitchy to others not

I am a generalist and I will not get into specifics on this question.
Suffice it to say I have very many recumbents and some are incredibly
twitchy and others are not. Same goes for the tiller variable. Some have way
too much and some have way too little and others are OK.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Recumbent designers should all be consulting with another Minnesotan by

the

Quoted message said:

name of Mark Stonich who knows what the hell he is talking about with
respect to these very elementary design considerations.

Quoted message said:

Frankly, I am fed up with recumbent designers who cannot get the trail

right

Quoted message said:

and who cannot get the tiller right. Such designers ought to be taken

out

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and horse whipped to death for all the aggravation they cause. I have

lost

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

all patience with them! The problem is that they love to build the g.d.
things, but they don't put any effort into designing them. May the devil
take them!

Umm yea sure

No, I really mean the Devil take them! I simply can't believe that recumbent
builders do not have a formula for trail and tiller. If I didn't know how to
design proper trail and tiller into a bike I would not presume to be a bike
manufacturer. Hells Bells! Even Wal-Mart sells bikes that are perfectly
designed.

I have got over 15 recumbents and they are all different. The fact that they
are all different ought to tell us something, but it doesn't because hope
springs eternal in the human breast. Fortunately, I am going to die soon and
so will be well out of these eternal conundrums that recumbents present
which have almost driven me crazy over the past 20 years. But I have a sense
of humor about it all and that is the only thing that has saved me.

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

"Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So which specific brands and bikes are too twitchy? That is something on

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

more personal nature, to some a bike might be twitchy to others not

I am a generalist and I will not get into specifics on this question.
Suffice it to say I have very many recumbents and some are incredibly
twitchy and others are not. Same goes for the tiller variable. Some have

way

Quoted message said:

too much and some have way too little and others are OK.

I find it odd how a supposed "genius" could buy so many bikes without
realizing how twitchy they are, I also doubt you really have a recumbent
bike at all

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and horse whipped to death for all the aggravation they cause. I have

lost

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

all patience with them! The problem is that they love to build the

g.d.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

things, but they don't put any effort into designing them. May the

devil

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

take them!

Umm yea sure

No, I really mean the Devil take them! I simply can't believe that

recumbent

Quoted message said:

builders do not have a formula for trail and tiller. If I didn't know how

to

Quoted message said:

design proper trail and tiller into a bike I would not presume to be a

bike

Quoted message said:

manufacturer. Hells Bells! Even Wal-Mart sells bikes that are perfectly
designed.

Wal-Mart may sell bikes with perfect trail but I doubt many will last 100
miles or more, again which specific brand and model bike are you complaining
about? I should think this would be a simple question to answer. I own 2 and
have ridden maybe 10 and have yet to find a complaint with how they steer,
comfort yes but never steer

Quoted message said:

I have got over 15 recumbents and they are all different.

I doubt this

Quoted message said:

the fact that they
are all different ought to tell us something, but it doesn't because hope
springs eternal in the human breast. Fortunately, I am going to die soon

and

Quoted message said:

so will be well out of these eternal conundrums that recumbents present
which have almost driven me crazy over the past 20 years. But I have a

sense

Quoted message said:

of humor about it all and that is the only thing that has saved me.

Odd you have spent the last 20 years on purchasing and riding such poorly
made bikes, then again that would explain your disposition here

On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:13:24 GMT, "Mark Leuck" <[email hidden]>

wrote in message oswKc.87610$WX.49747@attbi_s51: said:

I find it odd how a supposed "genius" could buy so many bikes without
realizing how twitchy they are, I also doubt you really have a recumbent
bike at all

I think he's riding them all on singletrack - he won't go near the
roads ;-)

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

"Mark Leuck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:oswKc.87610$WX.49747@attbi_s51...

Quoted message said:

"Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So which specific brands and bikes are too twitchy? That is something

on

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

more personal nature, to some a bike might be twitchy to others not

I am a generalist and I will not get into specifics on this question.
Suffice it to say I have very many recumbents and some are incredibly
twitchy and others are not. Same goes for the tiller variable. Some have

way

Quoted message said:

too much and some have way too little and others are OK.

I find it odd how a supposed "genius" could buy so many bikes without
realizing how twitchy they are, I also doubt you really have a recumbent
bike at all

Mark, why the hell don't you put periods at the end of your sentences?

I like recumbents for reasons having to do with factors other than that they
are twitchy (mainly comfort). You and I both know that I have very many
recumbents. Otherwise, how could I be so knowledgeable about them.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> and horse whipped to death for all the aggravation they cause. I

have

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

lost

Quoted message said:

> all patience with them! The problem is that they love to build the

g.d.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> things, but they don't put any effort into designing them. May the

devil

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> take them!

Umm yea sure

No, I really mean the Devil take them! I simply can't believe that

recumbent

Quoted message said:

builders do not have a formula for trail and tiller. If I didn't know

how

Quoted message said:

to

Quoted message said:

design proper trail and tiller into a bike I would not presume to be a

bike

Quoted message said:

manufacturer. Hells Bells! Even Wal-Mart sells bikes that are perfectly
designed.

Wal-Mart may sell bikes with perfect trail but I doubt many will last 100
miles or more, again which specific brand and model bike are you

complaining

Quoted message said:

about? I should think this would be a simple question to answer. I own 2

and

Quoted message said:

have ridden maybe 10 and have yet to find a complaint with how they steer,
comfort yes but never steer

Quoted message said:

I have got over 15 recumbents and they are all different.

I doubt this

Outsiders who come to my house for the first time are simply amazed at all
the recumbent bikes I have. They clutter the whole house. I have to tell
them that I am not really crazy, just a bit eccentric. I also have over 10
road and mountain bikes too. I have had bike shop owners tell me that I have
got more bikes in my house than they have in their store. Most of my bikes
were bought as framesets on the cheap and I built them myself. But thanks
for asking!

By the way, the above proves what it is possible to accomplish in life
provided you do not marry and have kids and therefore do not have to hold
down a regular job.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the fact that they
are all different ought to tell us something, but it doesn't because

hope

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

springs eternal in the human breast. Fortunately, I am going to die soon

and

Quoted message said:

so will be well out of these eternal conundrums that recumbents present
which have almost driven me crazy over the past 20 years. But I have a

sense

Quoted message said:

of humor about it all and that is the only thing that has saved me.

Odd you have spent the last 20 years on purchasing and riding such poorly
made bikes, then again that would explain your disposition here

My disposition would improve enormously if you would learn how to put a
period at the end of your sentences. It is the little things like this that
drive me crazy, not the big things like whether I live or die.

Most recumbents are not poorly made; they just have not been designed with
the proper trail and tiller. That is because recumbent manufacturers do not
spend enough time designing them. But they love to build them even though
they don't get the design right. Don't we all know folks like this?

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:13:24 GMT, "Mark Leuck" <[email hidden]>

wrote in message oswKc.87610$WX.49747@attbi_s51: said:

I find it odd how a supposed "genius" could buy so many bikes without
realizing how twitchy they are, I also doubt you really have a recumbent
bike at all

I think he's riding them all on singletrack - he won't go near the
roads ;-)

My very worst experience ever was riding a mountain bike on single track
(trails) in the Rocky Mountains near Aspen in Colorado. I spent the whole
damn day just walking my bike up the pass and then I had to walk it back
down the other side until I finally came to a gravel road at which point I
could get back on my bike. I resolved never again to do anything so stupid
and foolish. Trails are for hiking - period! Who are these idiots who think
you can ride a bike on a hiking trail?

The very best place to ride any kind of a bike are on the streets of a small
town. Thus spake Zarathustra!

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota

"Mark Leuck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:oswKc.87610$WX.49747@attbi_s51...
[...]

Quoted message said:

Wal-Mart may sell bikes with perfect trail but I doubt many will last 100
miles or more, again which specific brand and model bike are you

complaining

Quoted message said:

about? I should think this would be a simple question to answer. I own 2

and

Quoted message said:

have ridden maybe 10 and have yet to find a complaint with how they steer,
comfort yes but never steer

I am [censored] before I even start because you have not put a period at the
end of your sentence above. Is this your idea of how to alienate people and
make enemies?

I have several clunker upright bikes that are even worse than what Wal-Mart
is now selling and they will last a life time if not abused and a certain
amount of minimum maintenance is performed at regular intervals. The main
problem with almost all bikes that the kids get regardless of original
quality is that they abuse them and do not take care of them.

As to my recumbents, I would say that the Vision set up SWB has too much
twitchiness (not enough trail). Even set up LWB with OSS it is still too
twitchy. I have two other SWB's and the Kowal also has too much
twitchiness. The Turner SWB is just the opposite. It seems to have too much
trail. I have given up on SWB altogether.

My RANS V2 has too much tiller to suit me as does the RANS Tailwind. My
Tailwind (a very early version) is also too twitchy. At slow speeds too much
tiller and too much twitchyness is a pain in the you know what. My Infinity
is also too twitchy. The Tour Easy has got it right. If the trail and the
tiller are not right, the bike will not handle as well as it should. All
uprights solved these questions over a hundred years ago. It is not possible
to get a bad upright with respect to these very elementary design factors.

This is not to say that all recumbents are nor rideable even if trail and
tiller are not perfect. I can ride them all and have ridden very many of
them (except for the latest high racers and low racers). All recumbents
should be designed with optimum trail and optimum tiller for the vast
majority of cyclists just like uprights are. Then they would all handle
pretty much the same regardless of their individual configurations (frame
designs). Or so it seems to me.

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota

"Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mark Leuck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

I find it odd how a supposed "genius" could buy so many bikes without
realizing how twitchy they are, I also doubt you really have a recumbent
bike at all

Mark, why the hell don't you put periods at the end of your sentences?

I like recumbents for reasons having to do with factors other than that

they

Quoted message said:

are twitchy (mainly comfort). You and I both know that I have very many
recumbents. Otherwise, how could I be so knowledgeable about them.

I have yet to see anything you say show knowledge on any of them

(note the lack of a period)

Again you claim them to be seriously twitchy yet you continued to buy them,
how odd

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have got over 15 recumbents and they are all different.

I doubt this

Outsiders who come to my house for the first time are simply amazed at all
the recumbent bikes I have. They clutter the whole house. I have to tell
them that I am not really crazy, just a bit eccentric. I also have over 10
road and mountain bikes too. I have had bike shop owners tell me that I

have

Quoted message said:

got more bikes in my house than they have in their store. Most of my bikes
were bought as framesets on the cheap and I built them myself. But thanks
for asking!

You DO realize that having pictures of recumbent bikes does not qualify as
ownership of a real one correct?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Odd you have spent the last 20 years on purchasing and riding such

poorly

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

made bikes, then again that would explain your disposition here

My disposition would improve enormously if you would learn how to put a
period at the end of your sentences. It is the little things like this

that

Quoted message said:

drive me crazy, not the big things like whether I live or die.

Well here's to driving you crazy

Quoted message said:

Most recumbents are not poorly made; they just have not been designed with
the proper trail and tiller. That is because recumbent manufacturers do

not

Quoted message said:

spend enough time designing them. But they love to build them even though
they don't get the design right. Don't we all know folks like this?

Since you won't or apparently cannot tell us which particular make and model
have poor handling then why don't you tell us all what the proper trail and
pitch should be

"Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mark Leuck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:oswKc.87610$WX.49747@attbi_s51...
[...]

Quoted message said:

Wal-Mart may sell bikes with perfect trail but I doubt many will last

100

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

miles or more, again which specific brand and model bike are you

complaining

Quoted message said:

about? I should think this would be a simple question to answer. I own 2

and

Quoted message said:

have ridden maybe 10 and have yet to find a complaint with how they

steer,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

comfort yes but never steer

I am [censored] before I even start because you have not put a period at

the

Quoted message said:

end of your sentence above. Is this your idea of how to alienate people

and

Quoted message said:

make enemies?

It oddly only seems to bother you so therefore the correct word would be
"person" instead of "people"

Quoted message said:

I have several clunker upright bikes that are even worse than what

Wal-Mart

Quoted message said:

is now selling and they will last a life time if not abused and a certain
amount of minimum maintenance is performed at regular intervals. The main
problem with almost all bikes that the kids get regardless of original
quality is that they abuse them and do not take care of them.

Lets see now, you apparently possess 12 ill-handling recumbents and now
several junk DF bikes, odd how such a genius could collect garbage like that

Quoted message said:

As to my recumbents, I would say that the Vision set up SWB has too much
twitchiness (not enough trail). Even set up LWB with OSS it is still too
twitchy. I have two other SWB's and the Kowal also has too much
twitchiness. The Turner SWB is just the opposite. It seems to have too

much

Quoted message said:

trail. I have given up on SWB altogether.

Quoted message said:

My RANS V2 has too much tiller to suit me as does the RANS Tailwind. My
Tailwind (a very early version) is also too twitchy. At slow speeds too

much

Quoted message said:

tiller and too much twitchyness is a pain in the you know what. My

Infinity

Quoted message said:

is also too twitchy. The Tour Easy has got it right. If the trail and the
tiller are not right, the bike will not handle as well as it should. All
uprights solved these questions over a hundred years ago. It is not

possible

Quoted message said:

to get a bad upright with respect to these very elementary design factors.

Don't read off of web pages, I'm referring to bikes you really own but I'll
bite anyway

Did you not see these things (being the genius) before you purchased them?

Quoted message said:

This is not to say that all recumbents are nor rideable even if trail and
tiller are not perfect. I can ride them all and have ridden very many of
them (except for the latest high racers and low racers). All recumbents
should be designed with optimum trail and optimum tiller for the vast
majority of cyclists just like uprights are. Then they would all handle
pretty much the same regardless of their individual configurations (frame
designs). Or so it seems to me.

Welp with 12 ill-handling recumbents so far I doubt you could be satisfied
with anything at this point

"Mark Leuck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:qoCKc.125990$Oq2.79163@attbi_s52...

Quoted message said:

"Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

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"Mark Leuck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

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I find it odd how a supposed "genius" could buy so many bikes without
realizing how twitchy they are, I also doubt you really have a

recumbent

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bike at all

Mark, why the hell don't you put periods at the end of your sentences?

I like recumbents for reasons having to do with factors other than that

they

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are twitchy (mainly comfort). You and I both know that I have very many
recumbents. Otherwise, how could I be so knowledgeable about them.

I have yet to see anything you say show knowledge on any of them

(note the lack of a period)

As long as you cannot get your composition right I will continue to hold you
in the utmost contempt. The minute you start to top post like that other
fool, Bil, then I will cut you lose entirely. Idiots should only be
conversing with other idiots, not with geniuses like me.

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Again you claim them to be seriously twitchy yet you continued to buy

them,

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how odd

See my paragraph above for the explanation for it. I do not like to repeat
myself just because you do not know how to read. I am asusming others on
this group do know how to read even if you don't.

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> I have got over 15 recumbents and they are all different.

I doubt this

Outsiders who come to my house for the first time are simply amazed at

all

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the recumbent bikes I have. They clutter the whole house. I have to tell
them that I am not really crazy, just a bit eccentric. I also have over

10

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road and mountain bikes too. I have had bike shop owners tell me that I

have

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got more bikes in my house than they have in their store. Most of my

bikes

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were bought as framesets on the cheap and I built them myself. But

thanks

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for asking!

You DO realize that having pictures of recumbent bikes does not qualify as
ownership of a real one correct?

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Odd you have spent the last 20 years on purchasing and riding such

poorly

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made bikes, then again that would explain your disposition here

My disposition would improve enormously if you would learn how to put a
period at the end of your sentences. It is the little things like this

that

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drive me crazy, not the big things like whether I live or die.

Well here's to driving you crazy

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Most recumbents are not poorly made; they just have not been designed

with

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the proper trail and tiller. That is because recumbent manufacturers do

not

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spend enough time designing them. But they love to build them even

though

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they don't get the design right. Don't we all know folks like this?

Since you won't or apparently cannot tell us which particular make and

model

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have poor handling then why don't you tell us all what the proper trail

and

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pitch should be

See a follow up post to this one to which you are responding where I go into
some of the differences ever so slightly. I do not want this to become an
extended conversation about the pros and cons of various recumbents. We have
RCN for that.

As to proper trail and tiller, that is not my business. I do not design
recumbents nor do I manufacture them. I only buy them and ride them. That is
most likely all that 99% of us on this newsgroup do too - including you! Who
cares what you and I think about bicycle design anymore than anyone should
care what we think about nuclear physics or getting to the Moon. We can only
know what works for us and what doesn't work for us.

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota

"Mark Leuck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:jsCKc.111427$MB3.4303@attbi_s04...

Quoted message said:

"Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mark Leuck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:oswKc.87610$WX.49747@attbi_s51...
[...]

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Wal-Mart may sell bikes with perfect trail but I doubt many will last

100

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miles or more, again which specific brand and model bike are you

complaining

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about? I should think this would be a simple question to answer. I own

2

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and

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have ridden maybe 10 and have yet to find a complaint with how they

steer,

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comfort yes but never steer

I am [censored] before I even start because you have not put a period at

the

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end of your sentence above. Is this your idea of how to alienate people

and

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make enemies?

It oddly only seems to bother you so therefore the correct word would be
"person" instead of "people"

It bothers all educated people. Only fellow morons like yourself who never
got beyond the 8th grade are not bothered by it.

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I have several clunker upright bikes that are even worse than what

Wal-Mart

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is now selling and they will last a life time if not abused and a

certain

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amount of minimum maintenance is performed at regular intervals. The

main

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problem with almost all bikes that the kids get regardless of original
quality is that they abuse them and do not take care of them.

Lets see now, you apparently possess 12 ill-handling recumbents and now
several junk DF bikes, odd how such a genius could collect garbage like

that

None of it is garbage. Only elitist fools and snobs like yourself who have
more money than brains think you have got to pay thousands of dollars to get
a bike that is going to work just fine. But that is probably your way with
everything in life. You get what you pay for - right?

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As to my recumbents, I would say that the Vision set up SWB has too much
twitchiness (not enough trail). Even set up LWB with OSS it is still too
twitchy. I have two other SWB's and the Kowal also has too much
twitchiness. The Turner SWB is just the opposite. It seems to have too

much

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trail. I have given up on SWB altogether.

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My RANS V2 has too much tiller to suit me as does the RANS Tailwind. My
Tailwind (a very early version) is also too twitchy. At slow speeds too

much

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tiller and too much twitchyness is a pain in the you know what. My

Infinity

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is also too twitchy. The Tour Easy has got it right. If the trail and

the

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tiller are not right, the bike will not handle as well as it should. All
uprights solved these questions over a hundred years ago. It is not

possible

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to get a bad upright with respect to these very elementary design

factors.

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Don't read off of web pages, I'm referring to bikes you really own but

I'll

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bite anyway

Did you not see these things (being the genius) before you purchased them?

Trail and tiller do not have to be perfect for me as I am now telling you
for the third time. Other things matter more to me when it comes to a
recumbent - like comfort and fun.

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This is not to say that all recumbents are nor rideable even if trail

and

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tiller are not perfect. I can ride them all and have ridden very many of
them (except for the latest high racers and low racers). All recumbents
should be designed with optimum trail and optimum tiller for the vast
majority of cyclists just like uprights are. Then they would all handle
pretty much the same regardless of their individual configurations

(frame

Quoted message said:

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designs). Or so it seems to me.

Welp with 12 ill-handling recumbents so far I doubt you could be satisfied
with anything at this point

The perfect recumbent has yet to be made. It may be that there is something
fundamentally wrong with the recumbent design itself which can never be
gotten around. Ideally, a recumbent ought to handle just as well as an
upright, but minus all the pain that goes with an upright. However, this may
be rocket science after all and recumbent designers and builders do not fall
into that category of intelligence, at least not the last time I looked.

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Edward Dolan said:

...
The perfect recumbent has yet to be made. It may be that there is something
fundamentally wrong with the recumbent design itself which can never be
gotten around. Ideally, a recumbent ought to handle just as well as an
upright, but minus all the pain that goes with an upright. However, this may
be rocket science after all and recumbent designers and builders do not fall
into that category of intelligence, at least not the last time I looked.

Based on his work background in aerospace engineering, Tim Brummer
(Lightning Cycle Dynamics) could qualify as a "rocket scientist".

--
Tom Sherman – Quad City Area

I figured you couldn't tell me, fact is you don't know

"Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

As to proper trail and tiller, that is not my business. I do not design
recumbents nor do I manufacture them. I only buy them and ride them. That

is

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most likely all that 99% of us on this newsgroup do too - including you!

Who

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cares what you and I think about bicycle design anymore than anyone should
care what we think about nuclear physics or getting to the Moon. We can

only

Quoted message said:

know what works for us and what doesn't work for us.

"Mark Leuck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:iOFKc.112487$a24.68746@attbi_s03...

Quoted message said:

I figured you couldn't tell me, fact is you don't know

"Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

As to proper trail and tiller, that is not my business. I do not design
recumbents nor do I manufacture them. I only buy them and ride them.

That

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is

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most likely all that 99% of us on this newsgroup do too - including you!

Who

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cares what you and I think about bicycle design anymore than anyone

should

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care what we think about nuclear physics or getting to the Moon. We can

only

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know what works for us and what doesn't work for us.

The real facts are that you are an idiot who is now top posting and who does
not know how to punctuate. Maybe you and this other idiot Bil could get
together and celebrate your common stupidity.

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota