USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames????

"J.B." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:yUCHc.3030$ri.888@lakeread04...

Quoted message said:

I'm sure this question has been asked in the past - maybe someone can post

a

Quoted message said:

link to the old discussion. With that said:

Are the USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames??? And if that's true,
being completely objective, doesn't it blow a huge hole in the custom

frame

Quoted message said:

lobby? I guess it begs the question: If stock frames are good enough to
win the Tour De France, are they not good enough for average joe?

In principle stock frames are going to be better than custom frames for the
price due to the economies of scale. That's why you can buy high-performance
computer for less than a thousand dollars while making one from scratch
would probably cost more than a billion dollars.

Of course, they don't dig fresh ore to make the frame, but the principle
still applies to a degree.

Shayne Wissler

J.B. said:

I'm sure this question has been asked in the past - maybe someone can post a
link to the old discussion. With that said:

Are the USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames??? And if that's true,
being completely objective, doesn't it blow a huge hole in the custom frame
lobby? I guess it begs the question: If stock frames are good enough to
win the Tour De France, are they not good enough for average joe?

When I worked for Trek (quite a while ago now, admittedly), the team
frames were custom designed and built in the prototype workshop. It may
be different now.

--

-John ([email hidden])

On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:05:24 -0400, "J.B." <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I'm sure this question has been asked in the past - maybe someone can post a
link to the old discussion. With that said:

Are the USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames??? And if that's true,
being completely objective, doesn't it blow a huge hole in the custom frame
lobby? I guess it begs the question: If stock frames are good enough to
win the Tour De France, are they not good enough for average joe?

"Stock" in this context just means "we make these all the time." It
doesn't mean "this is just the [censored] we foist off on the duffers."
Given that Trek already produces (for sale) frames light enough to
build a bike that's under the minimum weight, there's probably little
to be gained by betting on an experimental unit instead of going with
a known design that's in production...and the image thing, about being
able to buy the same bike Lance rides in the TdF, is a Marketing Tool.

The fact that a frame has made it into production does not diminish
its capabilities...and at this point, the law of diminishing returns
is probably making frame development into an exercise in frustration.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Surrealism is a pectinated ranzel.

Men of anywhere near average height and proportions don't need custom
frames for bike fit.

I've seen a number of OCLV Treks from the old Saturn team, and while
the basic tubes, lugs and proportins may have been stock, there were
small differerences. Some or all had steel forks. Most or all had
numner plate tabs under the top tube.

JT

J.B. said:

I'm sure this question has been asked in the past - maybe someone can post a
link to the old discussion. With that said:

Are the USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames??? And if that's true,
being completely objective, doesn't it blow a huge hole in the custom frame
lobby? I guess it begs the question: If stock frames are good enough to
win the Tour De France, are they not good enough for average joe?

The primary point of a custom frame, unless you want particular aesthetics,
is to get a frame that fits you well. If the average joe fits a stock bike
that happens to fit Lance, or whoever, on USPS, then the stock frame is
certainly good enough for the average joe.

Baird

J.B. said:

I'm sure this question has been asked in the past - maybe someone can post a
link to the old discussion. With that said:

Are the USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames??? And if that's true,
being completely objective, doesn't it blow a huge hole in the custom frame
lobby? I guess it begs the question: If stock frames are good enough to
win the Tour De France, are they not good enough for average joe?

They are stock frames because Trek can't make "non-stock" frames with
the lug system they have. So they have managed to turn a problem into a
marketing opportunity...

Boasting that "we force all our riders to ride our frames even if they
don't really fit that well" doesn't sound as good.

Take a look at Hincapie's stem length some time and tell me he wouldn't
do better with a frame a few cm longer (that Trek doesn't make).

For another example of making lemonade out of lemons, look here:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/tour04/tech/?id=specialized

Specialized is boasting about making a custom 145mm stem for Cipo, but
why did they have to? Because their new carbon frame only comes in a
few sizes because the molds are so expensive, and for Mario to get his
stem low enough, they put him on the 58cm frame, which was too short, so
they made him a 145mm custom stem to fix the problem they created.

Lots of pros ride custom frames because they ride their stems lots lower
than normal humans. Petacchi rides a Pinarello that is something like a
58 TT / 54 ST just so he can get his stem really low.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2004/news/may21

Since Pinarello makes thier frames out of tin cans, it's easy to make
custom frames, unlike Trek who makes their fancy frames out of expensive
plastic that is really expensive to make custom.

What I really want to know is, since Colnago and Trek both use lugs to
make their carbon frames, how can Colnago make custom C40s for their
racers, but Trek can't? What is the difference in their lug
construction?

Quoted message said:

Are the USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames??? And if that's true,
being completely objective, doesn't it blow a huge hole in the custom

frame

Quoted message said:

lobby? I guess it begs the question: If stock frames are good enough to
win the Tour De France, are they not good enough for average joe?

Yes, the team rides completely stock frames... with the exception that Lance
& two others are riding a new version of the Madone called the SSL, which is
built from 50 & 110-weight carbon, as opposed to the all-110-weight carbon
of the standard Madone or 5900. However, this frame will become available
as a limited-edition sometime in the next six months.

The way TREK builds carbon frames, the majority of the expense is
front-loaded. The first frame costs a fortune to build, but all after that
cost much less. So you amortize the cost out by building as many as
practical... so unless TREK were to entirely change how they make frames,
building non-production bikes for the team is out of the question.

The good thing about all this is that it gives us a better "floor" bike to
sell, since it's all about technology rather than uniqueness.

By the way, if anybody needs proof that TREK doesn't build custom frames for
the team, check out George Hincapie. It would be difficult for me to
believe that what he rides is an ideal fit! However, it's still interesting
to note that of the two areas one might want to change (lengthening the top
tube and making it taller), at least one doesn't appear to be an issue,
since he rides his stem as low as it can get. Pretty amazing how much drop
(from seat to bars) on his bike!

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:42:04 -0400, jesseth@removethis_gwi.net (Jesse

Thompson) said:

Take a look at Hincapie's stem length some time and tell me he wouldn't
do better with a frame a few cm longer (that Trek doesn't make).

Guys his size should be riding 13 or 14 cms stems, which he is. Or
are you saying he should have longer reach than he currently does?
I'm not so sure about that considering how flat his back is on the
bike.

JT

jack-<< Are the USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames??? And if that's
true,
being completely objective, doesn't it blow a huge hole in the custom frame
lobby? I guess it begs the question: If stock frames are good enough to
win the Tour De France, are they not good enough for average joe? >><BR><BR>

Well, being good enough to win, doesn't really take into account the huge van
riding along with the riders full of spares, including framesets.

And they may be a size that fits a rider, and that becomes the 'stock size',
for Trek.

Lance's framesets are not 'stock'.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

JFT-<< Men of anywhere near average height and proportions don't need custom
frames for bike fit. >><BR><BR>

This is a great point. Maybe 5% of the framesets we sell are custom. Bike shops
that spout that custom is needed for most are mostly Serotta, cuz they make $
on custom framesets.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Men of anywhere near average height and proportions don't need custom
frames for bike fit.

True.

Quoted message said:

I've seen a number of OCLV Treks from the old Saturn team, and while
the basic tubes, lugs and proportins may have been stock, there were
small differerences. Some or all had steel forks.

That might have been in the days when Trek sold the "Classic" fork,
pretty flexible fork. I wonder if Trek developed the "Air Rail" in
response to some riders using steel forks?

Quoted message said:

Most or all had
numner plate tabs under the top tube.

The Treks for sale at my LBS don't have those. ;-)

On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:42:04 -0400, jesseth@removethis_gwi.net (Jesse

Thompson) said:

They are stock frames because Trek can't make "non-stock" frames with
the lug system they have.

Could be; but it's hard to imagine there's not at least a little
wiggle room. After all, the tubes have to be assembled onto the lugs.

Also, a smart engineer could consider mixing and matching tubes and
lugs from different frame sizes to achieve custom geometry. And now
that OCLV is available in WSD, there are even more to choose from.

I don't see why it should be too hard to have made a slightly shorter
top tube for, say, Roberto Heras as an example.

Quoted message said:

So they have managed to turn a problem into a
marketing opportunity...

That's for sure. Just as I would have done! ;-)

Quoted message said:

What I really want to know is, since Colnago and Trek both use lugs to
make their carbon frames, how can Colnago make custom C40s for their
racers, but Trek can't?

Good question. Could it be a different problem besides technical that
keeps Trek from offering custom geometry? I'm thinking logistics, but
that seems unlikely given that Project One has so many different color
combinations available.

Quoted message said:

What is the difference in their lug
construction?

Looks like Trek is internal and Colnago external, but I don't know
enough to guess what other differences might come into it.

dianne_1234 said:

I don't see why it should be too hard
to have made a slightly shorter
top tube for, say, Roberto Heras as
an example.

What makes you think he requires a short toptube for a man his height?

JT

"Qui si parla Campagnolo " <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

jack-<< Are the USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames??? And if

that's

Quoted message said:

true,
being completely objective, doesn't it blow a huge hole in the custom

frame

Quoted message said:

lobby? I guess it begs the question: If stock frames are good enough to
win the Tour De France, are they not good enough for average joe?

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Lance's framesets are not 'stock'.

I have to disagree with this statement in part. I believe Trek makes its
58cm bike to "fit" Lance and that anybody else who rides a 58cm will have to
adjust to that specific frame!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've seen a number of OCLV Treks from the old Saturn team, and while
the basic tubes, lugs and proportins may have been stock, there were
small differerences. Some or all had steel forks.

That might have been in the days when Trek sold the "Classic" fork,
pretty flexible fork. I wonder if Trek developed the "Air Rail" in
response to some riders using steel forks?

Au contraire. They had steel forks because Trek used the blacksmith method in
making those forks. And what's the blacksmith method, you ask? well, when the
blacksmith made something and it broke he added more metal until it didn't.
Trek "designed" those CF forks the same way and they added so much material
that the forks beat the riders up unmercifully. I made a couple of steel forks
for Trek riders in that period and I know others did as well.
Phil Brown

Quoted message said:

Lance's framesets are not 'stock'.

Peter: Could you elaborate on that one? I've seen the production lines;
there's nothing whatsoever special about what Lance rides, aside from the
fact that he'll sometimes be on a production bike that the public doesn't
get for a couple of months. The Madone SL will very shortly be available
(end of this month perhaps), and the Madone SSL a bit later. The bike he's
using for many of the flat sections is a standard Madone, but being the
weight-weenie that he is, anything with the slightest grade and he goes to
the 50 gram lighter "SL" without the flared (aero) seat tube & downtube. As
mentioned, that will shortly be available at your local dealer.

OK, because Lance's bike has a glued-on number plate hanger, I suppose that
could qualify it as non-stock? That might be stretching things just a bit.

Frame geometry? Absolutely untouched. Truth? If Lance demanded a 1cm
longer top tube, he'd have it.. and so would the rest of us. Fortunately,
Lance just happens to fit very nicely on a stock 58cm geometry. No
customization whatsoever. More truth? For some of the mountain bike
riders, they *did* tweak the frames a bit, with slightly-longer top tubes, a
couple of years ago. But not for any of the bikes Lance rides.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
IMBA, BikesBelong, NBDA member

"Qui si parla Campagnolo " <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

jack-<< Are the USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames??? And if

that's

Quoted message said:

true,
being completely objective, doesn't it blow a huge hole in the custom

frame

Quoted message said:

lobby? I guess it begs the question: If stock frames are good enough to
win the Tour De France, are they not good enough for average joe?

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Well, being good enough to win, doesn't really take into account the huge

van

Quoted message said:

riding along with the riders full of spares, including framesets.

And they may be a size that fits a rider, and that becomes the 'stock

size',

Quoted message said:

for Trek.

Lance's framesets are not 'stock'.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

On 10 Jul 2004 20:14:25 GMT, [email hidden] (Phil Brown)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've seen a number of OCLV Treks from the old Saturn team, and while
the basic tubes, lugs and proportins may have been stock, there were
small differerences. Some or all had steel forks.

That might have been in the days when Trek sold the "Classic" fork,
pretty flexible fork. I wonder if Trek developed the "Air Rail" in
response to some riders using steel forks?

Au contraire. They had steel forks because Trek used the blacksmith method in
making those forks. And what's the blacksmith method, you ask? well, when the
blacksmith made something and it broke he added more metal until it didn't.
Trek "designed" those CF forks the same way and they added so much material
that the forks beat the riders up unmercifully. I made a couple of steel forks
for Trek riders in that period and I know others did as well.
Phil Brown

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/rinard_forktest.html

The Trek OCLV fork (the Classic) is pretty much measures to be more
flexible than any of the steel forks. Did the riders feel the
difference they expected?

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

dianne_1234 said:

I don't see why it should be too hard
to have made a slightly shorter
top tube for, say, Roberto Heras as
an example.

What makes you think he requires a short toptube for a man his height?

JT

Nothing; it's just a hypothetical example. Maybe Roberto really needed
a longer top tube, or maybe he didn't and some other rider did.

The point is, with a little planning and preparation it shouldn't be
too hard to fudge the dimensions a few millimeters when bonding the
frame together. No new lugs, and maybe just selecting tubes or cutting
them a little longer or shorter.

"Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction Bicycles" <[email hidden]> wrote
in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Lance's framesets are not 'stock'.

Peter: Could you elaborate on that one? I've seen the production lines;
there's nothing whatsoever special about what Lance rides, aside from the
fact that he'll sometimes be on a production bike that the public doesn't
get for a couple of months. The Madone SL will very shortly be available
(end of this month perhaps), and the Madone SSL a bit later. The bike

he's

Quoted message said:

using for many of the flat sections is a standard Madone, but being the
weight-weenie that he is, anything with the slightest grade and he goes to
the 50 gram lighter "SL" without the flared (aero) seat tube & downtube.

As

Quoted message said:

mentioned, that will shortly be available at your local dealer.

OK, because Lance's bike has a glued-on number plate hanger, I suppose

that

Quoted message said:

could qualify it as non-stock? That might be stretching things just a

bit.

Quoted message said:

Frame geometry? Absolutely untouched. Truth? If Lance demanded a 1cm
longer top tube, he'd have it.. and so would the rest of us. Fortunately,
Lance just happens to fit very nicely on a stock 58cm geometry. No
customization whatsoever. More truth? For some of the mountain bike
riders, they *did* tweak the frames a bit, with slightly-longer top tubes,

a

Quoted message said:

couple of years ago. But not for any of the bikes Lance rides.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
IMBA, BikesBelong, NBDA member

Thanks Mike for clearing that up.
I've always wondered about the USPS Trek team bikes. Aside from the TT
bike, I always thought they were all custom made for each rider. I'm glad
to hear they are the same bikes available to the public.
-tom